Do GREs correlate with PA school success?

[G. Davenport]

Standardized tests are meant to be one way for a program (PA, engineering, etc) to assess the academic potential of people who got different grades at different schools.

That sums it up. Alone they have no value. And as part of an application, they often play a very small role in the decision process.

 

Bottom line, they provide a mild equalizer for candidates taking different courses from different institutions. Is my A equal to your A? Do all CC give an easy grade. For that matter, what about the easy instructor verses hard one at same institution.

 

Again, not good alone; plays small academic equalizer role; and until the PA community standardizes entry requirements and creates its own PACAT, it's the only option (for programs who want to compare applicant grades, in some manner).

 

 

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[G. Davenport]

I did HORRIBLE on the GRE. Barely made the minimum requirement for my school, and my GPA is 4.0 in the didactic year (almost done with it)... so no, it doesn't correlate probably

Your argument is not statistically significant. Also, Realize this test is not used to predict success, it is used to level the field among applicants (grades from multiple institutions). At least not in the pa world. Who a program accepts MUST be based an multiple factors.

 

The GRE is just one and It often plays a small role in the applicant process which is evident by your acceptance, even with a poor score. By chance did you study for the GRE like you do for your PA classes?

 

 

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[EMEDPA]

 until the PA community standardizes entry requirements and creates its own PACAT,

I like that idea....it would be VERY different than the mcat if I wrote it with a lot of clinical material students should know before they start PA school reflected on it to help weed out the high gpa/high gre folks who have never touched a pt....

questions every cna or emt basic would know:

what is the nl range for blood sugar? for blood pressure? , etc.

[db_pavnp]

People would just buy the PACAT review text from Amazon and ace the test.

[EMEDPA]

People would just buy the PACAT review text from Amazon and ace the test.

if I wrote it the test would change every year and have no standard data bank of questions.

[G. Davenport]

Side note EMEDPA. We need to reconnect at AAPA. Seems a long time ago (2001) when we started working together.

 

 

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[EMEDPA]

Side note EMEDPA. We need to reconnect at AAPA. Seems a long time ago (2001) when we started working together.

 

 

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yup, definitely. major changes at the old job to tell you about.....

[G. Davenport]

People would just buy the PACAT review text from Amazon and ace the test.

Seriously. Don't undermine our profession. Are you saying applicants applying to medical school review an amazon text and ACE it? This PACAT concept shouldn't be taken so lightly. It's really time for the PA to act at the level many of us perceive we are at.

 

 

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[EMEDPA]

Seriously. Don't undermine our profession. Are you saying applicants applying to medical school review an amazon text and ACE it? This PACAT concept shouldn't be taken so lightly. It's really time for the PA to act at the level many of us perceive we are at.

 

 

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I'm going to start a separate thread about content of this potential test. maybe we could trial it at your new program. maybe 100 questions taken during interview day. please contribute to that thread.

[whoRyou]

... until the PA community standardizes entry requirements and creates its own PACAT ...

 

Dr. Davenport, I am NOT looking to stir up a hornet's nest, but because I respect your opinion and because of your last position as the Dean and Program Director at Gardner-Webb University, and what you do now (Associate Dean of Health Professions), do you believe PA schools will ever do this anytime soon?

[EMEDPA]

we could start this at a single pa program on interview day and trial it.....some programs already have testing of one sort or another on interview day. we had to do essays and a medical terminology quiz.

[EMEDPA]

please continue discussion of a pa college admissions test here:

http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/index.php?/topic/12976-the-pacat-an-idea-whose-time-has-come/

[db_pavnp]

If your major issue with my statement was the use of the word "ace", I apologize.  That said, yes, study guides are crazy good these days.  What I see being discussed in the other thread doesn't change my opinion, either.

 

Seriously. Don't undermine our profession. Are you saying applicants applying to medical school review an amazon text and ACE it? This PACAT concept shouldn't be taken so lightly. It's really time for the PA to act at the level many of us perceive we are at.

[EMEDPA]

If your major issue with my statement was the use of the word "ace", I apologize.  That said, yes, study guides are crazy good these days.  What I see being discussed in the other thread doesn't change my opinion, either.

if an applicant could lean all the stuff they need from the study guide at least they would know it and I would be fine with that.

as I said earlier, however, the test would cover potentially a lot of stuff and would be hard to condense into a brief study guide. at a min we are talking about a year of bio, A+P, microbiology, basic chem and stats, basic drug calculations, everything found in cpr and adv. first aid courses, a lot of medical terminology, stuff about the profession, etc.

[kayakr]

I don't think so.  I did only "ok" on GRE, but really good in PA school and pretty good on PANCE.

[JohnnyM2]

I like that idea....it would be VERY different than the mcat if I wrote it with a lot of clinical material students should know before they start PA school reflected on it to help weed out the high gpa/high gre folks who have never touched a pt....

questions every cna or emt basic would know:

what is the nl range for blood sugar? for blood pressure? , etc.

Since law school has the LSAT and med school has the MCAT, something other than the GRE might make sense for PA school. If, however, you consider the expanding list of pre-reqs, and decreasing requirements for HCE at many of the schools, if becomes apparent that schools are (increasingly) more interested in academic preparation than documentation of time spent carrying for patients. Also, since so many forms of HCE/PCE are acceptable, it would be difficult, I think, to test for that experience (unless the intent is to create a bias for certain types of experience.

 

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[EMEDPA]

Since law school has the LSAT and med school has the MCAT, something other than the GRE might make sense for PA school. If, however, you consider the expanding list of pre-reqs, and decreasing requirements for HCE at many of the schools, if becomes apparent that schools are (increasingly) more interested in academic preparation than documentation of time spent carrying for patients. Also, since so many forms of HCE/PCE are acceptable, it would be difficult, I think, to test for that experience (unless the intent is to create a bias for certain types of experience.

 

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If it focused on basic questions about medical terminology, vital signs, personal protective equipment, cpr, use of aed,  etc along with "culture of medicine questions" anyone with a year or more of HCE should be able to do well on it.

Schools are really going in one of 2 directions with regards to HCE; we don't care vs 2000 or more hours. Different folks will want to attend or work at different programs. I know which types of programs I will work with when done with grad school.

[db_pavnp]

It probably makes sense there are options, really, if you assume that PAs and NPs perform a role that is needed by our healthcare system.

 

If the high HCE programs advertise themselves as such, situate themselves as slightly better for older students with kids, produce high pass rates, maybe they can even make a name for themselves as producing a superior product, and so forth.

[IPA]

Here is a wonderful study completed by Professors at the U of D Mercy PA Program on this very topic of GRE scores and if they are an indicator of success in PA programs.  I believe it has greatly influenced their admissions process and the weight they give to GRE scores in potential candidates.

 

I now wish I had actually studied for the GRE...

 

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=action/GetDocumentAction/i/105129

 

[EMEDPA]

It probably makes sense there are options, really, if you assume that PAs and NPs perform a role that is needed by our healthcare system.

 

If the high HCE programs advertise themselves as such, situate themselves as slightly better for older students with kids, produce high pass rates, maybe they can even make a name for themselves as producing a superior product, and so forth.

they already have: Medex, U. Iowa, Stony Brook, stanford, etc. Just think of all the better programs around > 20 yrs and they all fall in this camp.

[JohnnyM2]

Here is a wonderful study completed by Professors at the U of D Mercy PA Program on this very topic of GRE scores and if they are an indicator of success in PA programs. I believe it has greatly influenced their admissions process and the weight they give to GRE scores in potential candidates.

 

I now wish I had actually studied for the GRE...

 

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=action/GetDocumentAction/i/105129

Thanks for this post. Though this is a very interesting study, it contains no real surprises. Also, it uses various predictors to correlate with success in PA school, including passing the PANCE. I doubt many people would argue with the results of this study. The real contention in this forum is whether PCE such as EMT correlates with the preparedness of a newly minted PA to manage patients in various settings. e.g. will two years experience as an EMTb or an MA make you a more capable provider during your first year or two as a PA than two years HCE as a scribe or lab tech? How about 5 years and 10 years out?

 

Though this has never been proven, there are proponents of each side of this argument who provide anecdotal experience and may try to generalize from their experience. I'm not really sure how provable this is since there are so many types of HCE/PCE and so many PA practice settings.

 

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[a.rosswoods]

Dept chair of one of the schools I was accepted to told me that they use the GRE to determine if you can speak English well enough to talk to patients. Their program does not take quant score into consideration.

[EMEDPA]

I don't argue that performance on one standardized test(gre) can predict success on pance. I'm sure if you can study for one test you can study for another. What I will argue is how good pance is at predicting "readiness" to practice medicine. There was a study many years ago showing mcat scores gauge how well you do on USMLE step 1, but neither test was a good gauge of one's ability to do well in residency. PANCE used to be a much more valid test(in my mind at least) when it was a week long test with 3 written and 3 physical components, which required interacting with simulated pts. They did away with the physicals to make pance more like usmle, then usmle added step 2 CK (practical exams) and we never added ours back in (but should).

[Guest]

I never took GRE. Went to school that didn't require it. I had a terrible SAT score, didn't get into college and went to a community college first and then transferred to a university. Never got anything below a B on any class (except when I didn't wake up for a final exam one - oops). Graduated cum laude. Had I taken GRE, I am sure it would be terrible too.  I don't see how an exam which doesn't test your scientific knowledge is supposed to predict anything. 

I don't argue that performance on one standardized test(gre) can predict success on pance. I'm sure if you can study for one test you can study for another. What I will argue is how good pance is at predicting "readiness" to practice medicine. There was a study many years ago showing mcat scores gauge how well you do on USMLE step 1, but neither test was a good gauge of one's ability to do well in residency. PANCE used to be a much more valid test(in my mind at least) when it was a week long test with 3 written and 3 physical components, which required interacting with simulated pts. They did away with the physicals to make pance more like usmle, then usmle added step 2 CK (practical exams) and we never added ours back in (but should).

Some schools require you to pass mock boards and standardized patient simulation before they let you graduate, and it does take about a week. In a way it still exists! 

[EMEDPA]

I never took GRE. Went to school that didn't require it. I had a terrible SAT score, didn't get into college and went to a community college first and then transferred to a university. Never got anything below a B on any class (except when I didn't wake up for a final exam one - oops). Graduated cum laude. Had I taken GRE, I am sure it would be terrible too.  I don't see how an exam which doesn't test your scientific knowledge is supposed to predict anything. 

Some schools require you to pass mock boards and standardized patient simulation before they let you graduate, and it does take about a week. In a way it still exists! 

yup. my program we had a mock boards week with 3 writtens and 3 practicals. all must pass components to graduate. those who failed any single component had one chance to retkae and pass. anyone who failed exit exams twice failed out of the program right before graduation. In a class of 80, we had 4 who failed at least one component, two of whom failed 2. all passed with retakes after taking a required (and expensive) weekend course given by the faculty.

I never took the gre either as I went to a BS level PA program (for my BS #2). I did nebraska for my postgrad masters, which does not require GRE and am almost done with Nova for my doctorate(also no gre requirement).