How'd you pick which schools to apply for?

[neuqua]

Greetings,

 

I graduated a couple years ago with a BA in an unrelated field. Having recently realized that becoming a Physician Assistant is a very attractive option for me, I am starting up the process of fulfilling all my pre-reqs in hopes that I may be able to be done in time to apply for the 2016 application cycle.

 

Question I have is, how did you decide which schools you all applied to? Last I checked there were over 180 PA programs set up throughout the nation & I am wondering if there was a particular resource or method that is commonly used to differentiate which may or may not be good options. I am afraid that I will miss out on a good fit only because I simply hadn't heard of it. 

 

I don't have many restrictions besides my own limitations as an applicant. Again, I only started the pre-reqs this semester and also have only begun the process of gaining HCE this month. 

 

I live in Chicago and am open to relocating.

 

Appreciate any help offered.

 

 

[Timon]

There's no exact science and everyone has their reasons for applying to specific programs.

 

For me it was a variety of factors:

 

- First I narrowed schools down by geographic locations.

- Secondly if I met their admission criteria

- Thirdly if I met the average accepted students stats

- Fourth I looked at the cost

- Fifth I looked at their first time PANCE pass rates

- Next thing I did was call / visit the programs and get a feel for the faculty to see if we were a match.

- Last thing I did was do my homework on the programs I narrowed down

 

Everyone has their own system. My recommendation is for you to figure out what is important for you in selecting a program. Be honest with yourself. For me I needed to be near my wife and daughter knowing they would not relocate with me. Then there were some schools that I felt wasn't a good fit for me for whatever reason. That and I made sure I felt the mold of the average person who was accepted there since I'm a non-traditional applicant.

 

You'll figure it out. Just make yourself a list and start chipping away. If you make sure you match the average accepted student stats I'm pretty sure you can save some money on the application process by being a little more selective in which programs you apply to.

 

Best of luck!

[PM2PA]

I mainly went for location. Luckily my state has a lot if schools so I hit those first. My goal was to accept the first yes I got so I cancelled my other interviews as soon as that happened. The other interviews were also much later so it didn't make much sense to say no to a guaranteed in than cancel and take my chances.

 

 

 

[GreatChecko]

The only thing I would add to the above list is to take a look at the school's mission to ensure that it matches your personal goals.

 

For example, I wasn't sure that family practice was where I wanted to go. Thus, I didn't apply to many schools that specifically listed that as the goal area of medicine for their students. I'm probably not the candidate they are looking for. Furthermore, I'm not going to lie to an interviewer and tell them that FP was my end goal, when I wasn't sure and had great interest in other areas of medicine. 

[ctstone1]

My process was to first locate schools that I thought would match my learning style. I was intrigued by schools that utilized problem based and team based learning. I know that's how I learn best. Then I looked at the schools mission to see if our values were aligned. I made sure I satisfied the pre-reqs for each school and that was pretty much it. I didn't care about geography or cost, but I know that's a personal decision. I live in the Midwest and traveling all over the country for interviews has been tiring, but an experience that I have truly enjoyed.

[EMEDPA]

I was a competitive applicant back in the day so went for program quality above all other factors. I was young and single at the time so geography was not an issue. I chose a program where I knew I would get good rotation sites and preceptors based on input from former students. I did not want to have to arrange my own rotation sites and several programs at the time required that. some still do. I was also interested in working during the program so narrowed my list down to programs which had a 3 yr part time option. I started with a list of around 20 programs(there were only 52 at the time) and narrowed it down to 2 which I applied to.

[winterallsummer]

I had no idea how to pick a school so this is what I did:

 

1. First only look at schools that do NOT require the GRE.  I had no problem taking the GRE and was a competitive applicant, but this made it easy for me to cut my list to 1/3 (from every school in the US) and freed up time and money for me as well.

2. Went through and picked 2-3 schools I felt I had a really good chance to get into, based on them not requiring a high GPA or HCE.  Ironically my #1 backup school rejected me and hardest school to get into let me in, so not sure if this was a good idea or not.

3. Pick a handful of states I wanted to live in (wanted to relocate to a bigger city and also near the coast), this narrowed my list down to maybe 50.

4. Tried to find schools with good reputations.  Easier said than done.  The school I ended up at has a great reputation but unfortunately I believe it is more of a facade as I was not that impressed by the faculty, so again take it for what it's worth.

5. Go to the websites and view the curriculum.  One thing I did was eliminate schools that had year round A&P (only stuck with ones that do it first, in the summer).  Then eliminate schools that require you to pay for housing for away rotations.  

6. Then tried to be a bit pickier - find schools with cadaver labs where you get the whole body and not prosected, ones associated with medical schools or that also have medical schools, and no programs that had been around for less than 3 years.

7. Finally look at the last stuff like first time PANCE pass rates, etc.

8. Got down to 13 schools, applied to I think 11 of these, and then decided after a few interviews to go with one and drop the rest.

 

Also one thing to add... don't bother to pick any programs charging more than 60K for tuition unless you have a good reason to go there.  

[UGoLong]

1. Schools within 4 hours of home since my wife was going to stay in our house and in her job.

2. Schools with an MS degree, which would get me in compliance with a pending new state law for prescriptions.

3. I made sure my prereqs would cover the three schools that fit the bill.

4. I interviewed at the one that had rolling enrollment and was accepted. 

5. I paid my fee to hold my seat and kept interviewing.

6. I eventually went to a school whose faculty and teaching style I liked and would let me do my clinicals where I lived, narrowing my time away from home to 12 months.

7. I rented an apartment for the year and never looked back.

[neuqua]

I sincerely appreciate everybody's feedback. I need to relax a little bit and just take the process one day at a time. 

 

My main problems is that I didn't have the best undergrad experience. I got my Associates at a community college and got a 3.0 about ten years ago. Then due to personal matters ended up getting academic admissals at two different universities. Went back to school a few years later and graduated with a 3.73 GPA, which I am proud of but there were very few science classes. The plan was to complete all my pre-reqs in 2014 and hope to gather enough HCE to apply for the 2016 cycle.

 

There are some days where I burden myself with the previous academic failures and say they can't be overcome. I am trying to keep positive however and hope that my getting good grades in the pre-reqs combined with the good performance I had at my last university could show enough of an upward trend for a school to take a chance on me.

 

@UGoLong - I'm about 75% done with your book and wanted to take a moment to thank you for writing it. I sometimes beat myself up thinking being 29 is too late to make this drastic of a career change but your story is a constant reminder that it's never too late!

[GreatChecko]

29 is definitely NOT too late! :)

[UGoLong]

neuqua,

 

I'm glad the book is helping. It was a struggle to get it written and I hoped it would do some good.

 

Lots of people spend excessive time beating themselves up, myself included. You can't go back and change things. It is clear from your description that you aren't the same person who had the rough time in community college. If you do well on your prereqs, that will demonstrate it all the more.

 

I think many people (including hopefully people on whatever Adcom handles your application in a couple of years) are more impressed by people who have overcome obstacles. I hate the Olympic skating analogy of life: that if you fall down once, you can't win the gold medal.

 

Hang in there, pick yourself up, and keep moving. People like you impress me a lot more than those who have never had to overcome a disappointment.

 

Best wishes!

[whoRyou]

GoLong has made this whole process a little less intimidating. I thank you for writing the book - a lesson taught with humor is retained.

[neuqua]

Curious about what @winterallsummer had to say in his last point. Living in Illinois, there are not any PA schools less than $80k. Off the top of my head, I don't even recall seeing schools in the $60k range when I started putting my lists together. Did you come up with the $60k number based on expected ROI? 

 

Is this a shared view?

[BeatlesLVR]

 

@Greatchecko:  I figured I'd just work on pre-reqs first which is what I've been doing, then try to figure out which schools to apply to, which might actually be a little too late…  So I'm curious as to how you were able to determine each school's mission.  I have narrowed my interests to: Emergency Medicine, Surgery, Cardiology, and Sports Medicine (all based on former medical experience).  So I'm not at all interested in FP.  Did you have a system?

[BeatlesLVR]

I had no idea how to pick a school so this is what I did:

 

1. First only look at schools that do NOT require the GRE.  I had no problem taking the GRE and was a competitive applicant, but this made it easy for me to cut my list to 1/3 (from every school in the US) and freed up time and money for me as well.

2. Went through and picked 2-3 schools I felt I had a really good chance to get into, based on them not requiring a high GPA or HCE.  Ironically my #1 backup school rejected me and hardest school to get into let me in, so not sure if this was a good idea or not.

3. Pick a handful of states I wanted to live in (wanted to relocate to a bigger city and also near the coast), this narrowed my list down to maybe 50.

4. Tried to find schools with good reputations.  Easier said than done.  The school I ended up at has a great reputation but unfortunately I believe it is more of a facade as I was not that impressed by the faculty, so again take it for what it's worth.

5. Go to the websites and view the curriculum.  One thing I did was eliminate schools that had year round A&P (only stuck with ones that do it first, in the summer).  Then eliminate schools that require you to pay for housing for away rotations.  

6. Then tried to be a bit pickier - find schools with cadaver labs where you get the whole body and not prosected, ones associated with medical schools or that also have medical schools, and no programs that had been around for less than 3 years.

7. Finally look at the last stuff like first time PANCE pass rates, etc.

8. Got down to 13 schools, applied to I think 11 of these, and then decided after a few interviews to go with one and drop the rest.

 

Also one thing to add... don't bother to pick any programs charging more than 60K for tuition unless you have a good reason to go there.  

 

@Winterallsummer:  your post raises several questions for me that I hope you can answer :-) :

• did you notice a difference btw schools that required the GREs vs. not?
• In #5 you said you eliminated schools that did year-round A&P,  why?
• Also in #5, you determined which schools required you to pay for away rotation housing.  how'd you figure that out? is it on the schools' websites?
• How does one know if a schools uses cadavers vs. not?

Thank you for helping out :-)

[GreatChecko]

@Greatchecko:  I figured I'd just work on pre-reqs first which is what I've been doing, then try to figure out which schools to apply to, which might actually be a little too late…  So I'm curious as to how you were able to determine each school's mission.  I have narrowed my interests to: Emergency Medicine, Surgery, Cardiology, and Sports Medicine (all based on former medical experience).  So I'm not at all interested in FP.  Did you have a system?

 

A lot of this information was through pure research and grunt work. Once I narrowed down to the schools I could theoretically get into, I dove into their websites. Each school should have a mission statement posted somewhere and email the program if you cannot find it. There will be some you like and others that might be very specific or just don't fit the kind of PA you want to be. 

 

 

Here's my general process:

 

To keep things organized I first started with a long list based simply on prereqs, I divided schools between those I could get into with my current academic plan and those I couldn't. For example, I wasn't going to take a year of o-chem and wasn't planning on taking biochem, so that knocked some programs out. There's a split between o-chem and biochem, so to save money and time, I picked o-chem and never looked back. Then, I looked looked at pretty much every website of the programs I could get into and picked the ones I liked, whether it was location, reputation, curriculum (this is where you will find the info about cadaver labs), cost, etc. I kept doing this until I had about 20 schools. I then put everything on a spreadsheet tracking application deadlines, supplimental requirements, costs, address, contact info, and pretty much went back and forth on my rankings for a while. When the time came to send the CASPA, I think I picked my top 8 schools in an attempt to contain costs (CASPA gets expensive quick). From that point, it was in the hands of the AdComs. My current school wasn't my first choice until I visited, so things were very fluid for me throughout the process.

 

Overall, keep an open mind, research, research, research, and don't be afraid to ask programs tough questions, politely.

[winterallsummer]

@Winterallsummer:  your post raises several questions for me that I hope you can answer :-) :

• did you notice a difference btw schools that required the GREs vs. not?
• In #5 you said you eliminated schools that did year-round A&P,  why?
• Also in #5, you determined which schools required you to pay for away rotation housing.  how'd you figure that out? is it on the schools' websites?
• How does one know if a schools uses cadavers vs. not?

Thank you for helping out :-)

 

1. did you notice a difference btw schools that required the GREs vs. not?

 

I did not.  I felt that there were just as many competitive as well as safety schools in each category.  I also felt that geographically it was similar - eg there are schools in most every state (for the ones I looked at) that do and do not require the GRE.  I feel the quality of the schools is similar.  If I had felt that I was compromising the quality of schools by not taking the GRE, I absolutely would've taken the GRE.  

 

2. In #5 you said you eliminated schools that did year-round A&P,  why?

 

First of all I feel/felt A&P is the most memorization of any topic in PA school.  So to me, it was better to get all of that done at once, and then be able to focus on other topics.  So my main motivation was "let me get this class that involves so much memorizing out of the way, then I can have more time to read more in depth when I get to other classes."  That was my main reason.  I spent a lot of hours staring at Netters and going to the cadaver lab and I was able to focus almost entirely on anatomy (since physiology wasn't too tough of a course, comparatively).  In retrospect I am really glad I chose to go this route.  IMHO, I do not think doing the anatomy relevant to the course at that time (as opposed to in advance, like I did) will be that much more helpful, but again this is just from my experience.  But my main reason was to be able to immerse myself in anatomy fully without sacrificing study time in other subjects, and then be done with it once we start learning the real medicine.

 

3. Also in #5, you determined which schools required you to pay for away rotation housing.  how'd you figure that out? is it on the schools' websites?

 

It is usually on the website but not right there on the first pages.  You usually have to dig through student hand books, "guide to rotation", etc etc to find it.  You can always call the admissions office and ask.  You don't have to give your name when you call to ask this info so feel free to call and ask whatever questions you want.

 

4. How does one know if a schools uses cadavers vs. not?

 

The ones that do typically make a point to mention it somewhere under the "prospective students" page as this is a selling point for that school.  If they don't list it, I would assume they do not, or you can always call and ask.

 

Feel free to ask anything else you want and I will try to reply/

[BeatlesLVR]

@Winterallsummer, I tried to PM this message to you, but I got a message saying you were unable to accept new messages :-)

I have quite a few questions that I know will help out the OP as I'm sure we're in the same boat (similar boat?)  I've started down the route of taking my pre-req classes.  I began my research by visiting the websites of schools I am/was interested in attending and created a matrix of classes that they stated as encompassing a "competitive candidate" for their programs.  Unfortunately all of those schools require the GREs and are probably hard to get into based on their names.  I have yet to FULLY explore their websites like you have suggested… that's quite a bit of work on so many schools!  I wonder if you have/had a system that you can share with us.

 

1.  I am reading a lot about folks filtering schools based on clinical rotations… In my case, I don't want to do FP, I am interested in Emergency, Cardiology, and/or Surgery (these are all based on my experience of being a Combat Medic in the Army).  So how do I "filter" out schools based on their clinical rotations?  Do their sites state that they concentrate more on FP rather than Surgery-type rotations?

 

2.  How can I figure out which schools are associated with a hospital?

 

3.  How can I find out which schools do not require the GREs?  Is there a list?  or is it as simple as a google search?

 

4.  Will I not be competitive if I take some of my lower-level classes at a CC vs. a university?  I know I have to take my upper level courses at a university, but is it ok to take classes such as Chem 101 and 102 and Bio 101 and 102 at a CC?  

 

It seems as if you did some pretty labor-intensive research into the schools you were interested in… how did you start? did you have a strategy/system?  I just felt so overwhelmed after looking at ten different schools…. how'd you do it with ALL of the schools?

 

Thanks :-)

[GreatChecko]

1. If you aren't interested in FP, you wouldn't filter by clinical rotations since a PA is a generalist and you will pretty much hit the same rotations everywhere. Look at the mission statements for whether or not FP is a big deal for them. If they mention FP in the mission or they are part of the FP department, then don't apply there. There are two surgical specific programs as well, so those may interest you.

 

If people filter by clinical rotations, they are probably referring to certain rotation locations as being better or worse, or wanting to rotate in certain regions. This, unfortunately, requires time and research and I wouldn't do this until you've found your favorite 20 or so schools. 

 

2. You probably want to look for schools that are located at a college of medicine. These are going to be the bigger name schools at the University of X, etc. All schools will have agreements with a hospital and may be a good to look at since that site may only see PA students, but I definitely think there can be a benefit from studying at a program within a college of medicine.

 

3. This link will allow you to filter between schools that require the GRE and no GRE: http://directory.paeaonline.org/programs . However, I don't think it's something that you need to avoid. Some GRE prep and you can get a decent score. Yes, it's another step, but it also opens up more possibilities.

 

4. Your plan is good. Just get good grades and you'll be fine.

[winterallsummer]

1.  I am reading a lot about folks filtering schools based on clinical rotations… In my case, I don't want to do FP, I am interested in Emergency, Cardiology, and/or Surgery (these are all based on my experience of being a Combat Medic in the Army).  So how do I "filter" out schools based on their clinical rotations?  Do their sites state that they concentrate more on FP rather than Surgery-type rotations?

 

2.  How can I figure out which schools are associated with a hospital?

 

3.  How can I find out which schools do not require the GREs?  Is there a list?  or is it as simple as a google search?

 

4.  Will I not be competitive if I take some of my lower-level classes at a CC vs. a university?  I know I have to take my upper level courses at a university, but is it ok to take classes such as Chem 101 and 102 and Bio 101 and 102 at a CC?  

 

It seems as if you did some pretty labor-intensive research into the schools you were interested in… how did you start? did you have a strategy/system?  I just felt so overwhelmed after looking at ten different schools…. how'd you do it with ALL of the schools?

 

Thanks :-)

 

 

1.  I am reading a lot about folks filtering schools based on clinical rotations… In my case, I don't want to do FP, I am interested in Emergency, Cardiology, and/or Surgery (these are all based on my experience of being a Combat Medic in the Army).  So how do I "filter" out schools based on their clinical rotations?  Do their sites state that they concentrate more on FP rather than Surgery-type rotations?

 

So there are a few rotations EVERY school does and that includes internal and family medicine, as well as emergency and surgery.  For most of the specialties, including cardio, you can only do these as electives.

 

So my advice for you would be look for schools that offer more electives.  My school offers only 1 elective so I spend more time on core rotations.  If I had choose a school that had 2 electives, I could've done extra time in emergency, surgery, whatever.  All schools however will have the same core rotations.  Yes just look for the student handbook or rotation list on the school website, most all have them as viewable.

 

2.  How can I figure out which schools are associated with a hospital?

 

Go to the website and they should say.  Medical schools with PA programs are more likely to be affiliated with a hospital.  Again gotta check the website.

 

3.  How can I find out which schools do not require the GREs?  Is there a list?  or is it as simple as a google search?

 

There are two ways to do this:

 

1. There is a sticky on this pre-pa forum that says "school excel file and formal hello" with a list of schools, not sure if it has GRE required or not.  But you can use this to start, and then visit school's websites and check and add a column on the excel file about it.

2. Go to CASPA's website and make an account, then they have a way you can view EVERY PA school.  Put these in an excel file and go one by one to the schools website and find who does not require the GRE.  This took time but it's what I did.  Unfortunately I don't know any easier way but if you google it, maybe someone posted one up.  Also search these forums maybe someone loaded something.

 

4.  Will I not be competitive if I take some of my lower-level classes at a CC vs. a university?  I know I have to take my upper level courses at a university, but is it ok to take classes such as Chem 101 and 102 and Bio 101 and 102 at a CC?  

 

I took my first 2 years at a CC and also the electives bio 1, bio 2, microbiology.  I know students who took almost all their electives at a CC.  From my experience, the CC was a better education.  Your milage may vary.  It was NEVER an issue.  Of course I would recommend taking A&P at the 3000 level, and if you do biochem or ochem then that has to be an upper level class as well.  I do not think there is any problem with taking a lot of courses at CC, but maybe it is better to do A&P at a university level.

 

It seems as if you did some pretty labor-intensive research into the schools you were interested in… how did you start? did you have a strategy/system?  I just felt so overwhelmed after looking at ten different schools…. how'd you do it with ALL of the schools?

 

See my answer to #3.  I started with a list of every school.  I went to their website and got rid of all that did not include GRE.  Then I put that list into an excel file and started adding average GPA of acceptance, cadaver lab or not, etc etc.  It takes a lot of work.  Work on it a little every day and start early.

 

I'll see later if I can find my old list and post it but I looked a while back for a personal friend and never found it.

[winterallsummer]

Attached is a list of SOME schools that, when I applied 2 years ago, did not require the GRE.  My original list was much larger but I can't find it.  This is a good place to start.

 

Ugh won't let me attach it.  So here it is posted but just the schools:

 

Wichita State University

University of Toledo Health Science Campus

Medical College of Georgia

Anne Arundel Community College

Grand Valley State University

Union College

Touro University Nevada

Daemen College

Wagner College

The University of Findlay

Chatham University

Duquesne University

Gannon University

Saint Francis University

Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center

UT Health Science Center San Antonio

Eastern Virginia Medical School

Arizona School of Health Sciences

Butler University

Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences

Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences–Worcester

Northeastern University

University of New England

Augsburg College

Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences–Manchester

Mercy College

University of Oklahoma–Tulsa

The University of South Dakota

University of Utah

Red Rocks Community College

Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center

Springfield College

Springfield College

Towson University/CCBC Essex PA Program

Western Michigan University

University of St. Francis

D'Youville College

Hofstra University

Le Moyne College

Pace University–Lenox Hill Hospital

Stony Brook University

Touro College Manhattan

Cuyahoga Community College

Pacific University

Drexel University

Marywood University

Seton Hill University

Mountain State University

University of the Cumberlands

Wingate University

Franklin Pierce University

Touro College School of Health Sciences

Touro College School of Health Sciences

University of Mount Union

University of Oklahoma

Salus University

University of Pittsburgh

Chatham University - Puerto Rico Cohort

[neuqua]

That's a great help, I appreciate it as well.

 

I think I am going to take the GRE, mainly because the schools local all require it. For what it's worth, I've noticed there's quite a few schools out in California that don't require the GRE and I do plan on applying out there as well. 

 

I'm using the http://physician-assistant-ed.com/ website and going through as many different schools as I can to find out what their pre-reqs are. I'm trying to find schools that do not require Orgo simply because of time. In order for me to go through the whole process of being able to even take the O-chem classes to begin with, it will cut too close to my wanting to apply in 2016 at the latest.

 

I'm still curious about the cost you mentioned earlier however, as I said there are no local schools under the amount you listed. Was there a particular reason or belief you've experienced that made you suggest that?

 

Thanks again!

[winterallsummer]

Yeah if you haven't taken the GRE just go for it.  Some people do well even without studying, it may give you a big boost.  Don't sell yourself short before you even take it.  I just used it as a way to narrow my list really and not having to deal with it was an added benefit.  If most the schools I was considering required it, I would've gone for it.

 

As far as the money, it is just my opinion.  I do not think you are going to really get a better education, necessarily, at an 80K vs 60K school.  At the end of the day we will all be PAs wherever we go.  And a borrowed 20K is more like 25-30K+ when you consider interest.  So why pay more when most schools only charge 60k?  That is just my thinking.  You can live cheap, get a student job etc etc but at the end of the day saving 20K on tuition is a big advantage for once you start your future (less to pay back).  As I mentioned I go to a 60K school that has a stellar reputation but I am not impressed with them.  Sometimes I consider what life would've been like at this other school I considered which was 80k but had a higher cost of living due to the area as well.  Maybe better, maybe not - but when I graduate with less debt, I will be happy I stuck it out at this cheaper school.  Now what I probably should've done is accepted more of my interviews as most the schools I applied to were 60k, but that ship has sailed!