KMKPA Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hey all, What is typical for bonus pay and how is it calculated? Is it just based on good will from the physician? It is difficult to get numbers from our accounting team. Currently, my bonus will be calculated based on the discretion of the physician....I have 5 yrs experience, but have only worked in hand/ortho surgery for the last 9mos. My pay is 87k. I stay late and work long hours, but do not take call. The physician I work for has another PA also, who has been with him for 2.5years. Per her, the annual bonus she received last year was 5k. Hand surgery doesn't compensate well for PA's. We also take part in co-clinics, not completely independent clinics, so, our billing is all under the physician. Any thoughts? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandPA Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Hey, this situation is very similar to mine, I'm also practicing hand surgery. I was just wondering if you came to a solution. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted March 11, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2014 last job (which I left) I got $300 as a bonus - I seriously considered giving it back and explaining to them that it was an insult... grossed just under 300k for the clinic, took about 800 hours of call for free, all for 80k for a three day week (3x10) Seriously - insulting.... If it is a doc owned practice - forget having any consistency and the egomaniac owner will always take the lions share of any profit (or say their was no profit - cause he took it all...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Off topic, excluding the call, I'd take $80K for a thirty hour, three day work week at this point in my life, regardless of the specialty for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Any bonus structure IMO are total BS, particularly for PAs. Forget it! You think your SP would be honest/comfortable to reveal what you generate? You thought wrong. I wouldn't bank my hope on any bonus. Get paid what you worth! You would not win the fight!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted March 11, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 11, 2014 Off topic, excluding the call, I'd take $80K for a thirty hour, three day work week at this point in my life, regardless of the specialty for the most part. about 100 patients a week - booked every 10 -20 min, common to stay and extra 1-2 hours to get paperwork done - I was basically jammin 5 days into 3..... this is not worth 80 If I worked 3 12s in the ER it would be 110-120k... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 about 100 patients a week - booked every 10 -20 min, common to stay and extra 1-2 hours to get paperwork done - I was basically jammin 5 days into 3..... this is not worth 80 If I worked 3 12s in the ER it would be 110-120k... In those circumstances I would agree. I just liked the hours and income, assuming that it was a realistic schedule, which seems to be becoming harder and harder to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welkins Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I have been a PA for 10 yrs and started in ortho part time in 07. I began working full time in ortho 5 yrs ago. Prior to that I worked full time in ER. I worked the first 2 years for a base salary, which hasn't changed since i began full time. Instead of negotiating for a raise I tried a different strategy. I am able to see how much money I generate each month and used that to negotiate a quarterly payment based on what I generated. I did not call it a bonus. Instead I negotiated a percent of the $$ I generated after deducting all my expenses (base salary, insurance, vacation, CME, etc.). That way I made sure he knew that it wasn't money he was paying me; it was a portion of the money I earned for the practice which was in addition to the money he was bringing in to the practice. I asked for 30% of what I earned after paying for myself. I explained that he was still getting 70% of my net revenue after paying for myself. In summary, I don't cost him anything and he gets to keep 70% of my net earnings. I get a base salary of $105,000 plus benefits and a quarterly check for $4,000-$6,000 after taxes. Again it's not a bonus, its part of what I earn. A bonus implies that you are already being paid what you earn and that you are being given something over and above that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody85 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I have a dog, but I tell everyone he's a pig...That makes him a pig right? J/k but your situation sounds like a bonus to me...imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welkins Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I have a dog, but I tell everyone he's a pig...That makes him a pig right? J/k but your situation sounds like a bonus to me...imo I don't consider it a bonus. It's a quarterly disbursement based on how much money I bring into the practice. I negotiated a portion of the money I collect as a result of the work I do for the practice. I don't cost the practice a dime and that includes no additional overhead expenses. When I'm seeing 60-70 pts a week, doing all the H&Ps, putting on all the casts and splints, assist in surgery, and share in rounds and consults so he can see another 80-90 pts a week plus surgery. I would say that since he gets 70% of the profit I earn for the practice without creating any additional overhead or staff, he is the one that is getting the bonus not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Semantics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welkins Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Semantics? Depends on the mind set. If you believe where you work is giving you something that you haven't earned then call it what you want. Bonus, donation, gratuity, good will gesture, charity, it doesn't really matter. I'll bet you are worth a lot more to your practice than you are aware. The question is how much do you think you are entitled to and how can you negotiate a larger portion of what you earn? PAs earn every dime we get and most SP are making a nice profit from what we do. Most of them really don't want us to know how much money they make off of the services we provide. They like for us to think like a hired hand just getting a salary. It changes the whole perspective when we see ourselves as revenue producers just like them. I am fortunate to work with an SP who recognizes how much money and free time I bring in to him and the practice. He nets about $100,000 a yr on the services I provide. I negotiated a salary that is more than most of the posts I have seen on this forum. When I negotiated that salary, I used sound financial reasoning and real numbers that spelled out how much I am worth to the practice, which was in addition to the $$ my SP brought into the practice. I don't think like an EMPLOYEE who comes to work on time, stays late, works hard. Your SP can see that kind of stuff. That mind set might get you a 1-2% raise or a couple thousand here and there. My reasoning describes my worth in dollars in his pocket. If you want to call it a bonus, I'm happy to cash the difference at the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Semantics? Depends on the mind set. If you believe where you work is giving you something that you haven't earned then call it what you want. Bonus, donation, gratuity, good will gesture, charity, it doesn't really matter. I'll bet you are worth a lot more to your practice than you are aware. The question is how much do you think you are entitled to and how can you negotiate a larger portion of what you earn? PAs earn every dime we get and most SP are making a nice profit from what we do. Most of them really don't want us to know how much money they make off of the services we provide. They like for us to think like a hired hand just getting a salary. It changes the whole perspective when we see ourselves as revenue producers just like them. I am fortunate to work with an SP who recognizes how much money and free time I bring in to him and the practice. He nets about $100,000 a yr on the services I provide. I negotiated a salary that is more than most of the posts I have seen on this forum. When I negotiated that salary, I used sound financial reasoning and real numbers that spelled out how much I am worth to the practice, which was in addition to the $$ my SP brought into the practice. I don't think like an EMPLOYEE who comes to work on time, stays late, works hard. Your SP can see that kind of stuff. That mind set might get you a 1-2% raise or a couple thousand here and there. My reasoning describes my worth in dollars in his pocket. If you want to call it a bonus, I'm happy to cash the difference at the bank. newbiees and olbiees should heed your advice. most PAs provide slave labor while being treated like second hand providers. I earn far above the high salary range precisely because i know my value to my employer and understand my role in the business. it makes all the difference in work attitude also because then one changes from a passive role of provider to an active role of earner. semantics aside, income is what keeps our lights on and bills paid. don't let yourself be used like a slave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I will be a "newbie" and I will certainly provide no slave labor. My guess is that I will demonstrate more business savvy than your average experienced PA, considering the crap deals I've read about on the forum. And, again, the argument was over semantics. As in, what constitutes a "bonus". But I do take your point, and I think you are entitled your bonus (though you would object to hearing it called this), and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welkins Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Unfortunately a lot of PAs are working and earning much less than the revenue they generate. We are providers and think like regular staff. This is not true. Most office staff take money from the practice, but we are different because we generate revenue for the practice. Most PAs far exceed what they actually get paid. SPs will say they have rent, supplies, malpractice, and other overhead to avoid paying more. When I started working for the practice we added a computer and printer. No additional rent for space, no extra office staff, no extra supplies, or other adjustments. Hence, our overhead did not change one dime. He was paying the same whether I am there or not. Or the PA is just in the dark on how much they actually earn. They also use other tricks like billing under the SP number when he's in the office and they claim that money on their books. We will continue to get low salaries as long as someone is willing to work for cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 You make really great points, and I completely agree. Glad to see there are business wise PAs out there expecting what they are due. We need more individuals like you elevating the profession! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walkoffshot Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 WJM7, pump your brakes a little. A lot of those "crap deals" are relative.. to state, specialty, experience etc. You don't have control over supply and demand, and the minute you start to "negotiate" or up sell your services your employer is going to look elsewhere. Now, keep in mind I am a student, but business is business. Like I said, it's all relative. If you are that "stud" that everyone wants, then sure you have leverage, but that's about it. Just like everyone else, you have to put your time in. WELKINS, I like your approach... did you work for some time before being able to negotiate your salary and quarterly pay structure? I imagine, just as I said above, that you have to put your time in and build some trust with your doc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 My guess is that you can "up sell" yourself to a certain percentage ceiling, over which it becomes just AS convenient/cost effective for a practice or SP to hire another doc instead of you. Calculating that golden number is something I don't know the first thing about. Sent from the Satellite of Love using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welkins Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 WJM7, pump your brakes a little. A lot of those "crap deals" are relative.. to state, specialty, experience etc. You don't have control over supply and demand, and the minute you start to "negotiate" or up sell your services your employer is going to look elsewhere. Now, keep in mind I am a student, but business is business. Like I said, it's all relative. If you are that "stud" that everyone wants, then sure you have leverage, but that's about it. Just like everyone else, you have to put your time in. WELKINS, I like your approach... did you work for some time before being able to negotiate your salary and quarterly pay structure? I imagine, just as I said above, that you have to put your time in and build some trust with your doc. I worked with him as an RN in surgery before PA school. I began working with my SP part time in 05 while still working full time in ER. I switched part time and full time in 09. I had a base salary with benefits and thought I was getting a pretty good salary. I live in a small town and work Mon-Fri with minimal call and my salary was about $50/hr plus benefits. My SP has always been easy to talk and work with. We get a monthly report on how much we each make for the practice and I see it every month (most PAs don't get this option). That is really when my eyes opened to how much we actually make for our SP and what we are worth in productivity. I worked for about 2 yrs and then started preparing for a discussion about my salary based on what I earn for the practice. There was no argument or hesitation on his part. I get the same base salary every 2 wks and once a quarter I get a check based on my collections after deducting my salary and benefits from the gross total. Not every PA has an SP as smart as mine. Most SPs don't realize how much money they would make in both productivity and retention simply by treating their people right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 This is what I called been treated as a colleague, not just an employee or the one pushing the meat. It's a win-win situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 WJM7, pump your brakes a little. A lot of those "crap deals" are relative.. to state, specialty, experience etc. You don't have control over supply and demand, and the minute you start to "negotiate" or up sell your services your employer is going to look elsewhere. Now, keep in mind I am a student, but business is business. Like I said, it's all relative. If you are that "stud" that everyone wants, then sure you have leverage, but that's about it. Just like everyone else, you have to put your time in. WELKINS, I like your approach... did you work for some time before being able to negotiate your salary and quarterly pay structure? I imagine, just as I said above, that you have to put your time in and build some trust with your doc. Brakes officially pumped. And I think I more or less agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's that uncommon for people to be low-balled and be clueless about their professional worth. I'm not saying I'm going to connive my way into a $150,000 a year job as a new PA, but I do intend to do everything I can to ensure that I am in a place that respects my training and compensates me accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSPINE Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's true that what you can get in salary/bonus/compensation over expense - call it what you will - hinges on your true knowledge of your value as well as the market you're in, competition and negotiation. I tried to start a thread where state specific specialties listed pay, benefits, hours, call to be used as an apples to apples resource when SPs try to tell us what the market is for our services. I'm in ortho spine surgery. At my 1st negotiation with my boss 6 months after starting (a few years ago when about 2 years out of school with limited spine experience) I was working for 90k + "bonus" or 20% of collections over salary which I accepted only to get my foot in the door. When he offered me 5k increase I went and applied for another job and was immediately offered 120k + 20% over salary. I then told my boss, who I actually wanted to stay with, that this was actually the market value for my service at that time. He proceeded to negotiate. He didn't want me to leave any more than I did. You have to know that you're not easily replaceable. If you've spent time in your practice and you are an integral component with training and relationships, etc, you are then valuable. If there are no competitors in your market its obviously harder to find competing offers but you have to show you're serious. I'm reasonably well paid now but I still think I'm being somewhat taken advantage of but incrementally we're closing in on the percentage of my earnings that I think I should keep. I agree with previous perspective that getting paid more just means you're paying your SP less. You pay them. You cost them nothing. That's a valuable relationship. I'd love to see that salary thing take off but, I don't know, everyone's pretty close to the vest about earnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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