Medical School vs Physician Assistant School

[EMEDPA]

Some would argue that residents, especially after internship, are practicing medicine. a PGY-2 can take all 3 steps of usmle, get an unrestricted license, sign their own charts without oversight, and moonlight at an urgent care or ER as an attending, they just aren't board certified yet. at one of my jobs I work with lots of pgy-2 and 3 folks who are still trying to figure out the basics of their specialty, however they are legally licensed physicians and in theory my "supervisors", although most of them defer to me if anyone sick actually comes in.

[browndog]

I came to this profession as a second career so medical school was out of the question. If I were young, smart and had the resources I would choose the MD/DO path. 

[PACdan]

But bottom line is a PRACTICING physician has 6-8 years beyond undergrad, whereas a PRACTICING PA has only 2. 

 

Except when that PA went to a graduate program longer than 2 years and did a residency (or soon a DPAM). As this becomes more commonplace, we must resist those whom attempt to subtly dismiss or demean PA education with statements like: PAs only have 2 years of training compared to a doc's XYZ.

 

We must avoid being overly simplistic as the dynamic becomes ever more complex. It's only a detriment to our profession if we don't promote ourselves and raise our banners high. We have seen, clearly demonstrated, how very effective that can be for others. No one else is going to do it; they'll be glad to keep PAs underfoot, or underpaid, or under represented.

[Timon]

Does it really matter if you're treated by a PA with 8 years of working experience versus a physician that's 3 years out of residency?

 

At what point does that gap narrow? 

 

I would imagine at some point its really a mute point how many years of schooling you went through... I mean.. how many of us remember the British literature class we took in high school or calculus if you went that far in high school or college. At some point our retention from what we learn has to bottom out. What we learned in academia is always changing since this is medicine and with advancements and the dynamic nature of heathcare what we learn in med school / pa school becomes negligible and yields inferior to years of working experience. 

 

I mean, it's too much to generalize that a 3rd year resident who went straight from college to med school with research experience is superior to lets say the 5-10 year independent duty corpsman or military medic or RN who is 5 years out from PA school.

 

I just think the argument regarding the number of years of schooling is played out. Its just two different models, both have been proven effective in delivery patient care. Whats the difference between a physician calling for a consult on a patient with another physician versus a PA consulting with their SP or another physician regarding a patient? 

[EMEDPA]

unfortunately, the issue is all PAs get treated the same.

to most docs a PA with prior experience as a candy stripper for 3 months who is a new grad who barely passed PA school and pance= a pa with 10 yrs of prior EMS experience who graduated top of their class, aced pance and panre x 3 with 2 BS, an MS, 2 grad certificates, a doctorate, and 27 years of experience in their specialty(not that I know anyone like that.....:) )

The concept of "senior PAs" is rare at most places. some places which treat PAs very well only hire senior folks, while many others put any warm pa body into any pa slot.

[Joelseff]

unfortunately, the issue is all PAs get treated the same.

to most docs a PA with prior experience as a candy stripper for 3 months who is a new grad who barely passed PA school and pance= a pa with 10 yrs of prior EMS experience who graduated top of their class, aced pance and panre x 3 with 2 BS, an MS, 2 grad certificates, a doctorate, and 27 years of experience in their specialty(not that I know anyone like that.....:) )

The concept of "senior PAs" is rare at most places. some places which treat PAs very well only hire senior folks, while many others put any warm pa body into any pa slot.

Now, E, can't be making up fictitious characters to drive your point :P

[PACdan]

unfortunately, the issue is all PAs get treated the same.

to most docs a PA with prior experience as a candy stripper for 3 months who is a new grad who barely passed PA school and pance= a pa with 10 yrs of prior EMS experience who graduated top of their class, aced pance and panre x 3 with 2 BS, an MS, 2 grad certificates, a doctorate, and 27 years of experience in their specialty(not that I know anyone like that.....:) )

The concept of "senior PAs" is rare at most places. some places which treat PAs very well only hire senior folks, while many others put any warm pa body into any pa slot.

 

I'm assuming this 'lumping' is par for the course to keep PAs... off their turf, so to speak?

 

There is more than one doc that barely passed med school, slumped through residency, and just aren't good. Other docs realize this, they steer pts. away.

How are bad docs more insulated in the system than accomplished PAs? Is it just institutionalized superiority or revenue based?

[Acromion]

unfortunately, the issue is all PAs get treated the same.

to most docs a PA with prior experience as a candy stripper for 3 months who is a new grad who barely passed PA school and pance= a pa with 10 yrs of prior EMS experience who graduated top of their class, aced pance and panre x 3 with 2 BS, an MS, 2 grad certificates, a doctorate, and 27 years of experience in their specialty(not that I know anyone like that.....:) )

The concept of "senior PAs" is rare at most places. some places which treat PAs very well only hire senior folks, while many others put any warm pa body into any pa slot.

 

I do think there is a definite regional variation in how PA's are treated, based on your posts and what I've heard from PA's in different parts of the country. Experienced PA's are highly regarded and sought after where I work. I can't think of a single specialty service at the small community hospital I work at that does't have at least one PA. In fact, when it comes to GI consults our go-to is a very experienced PA. I don't think I've ever spoken to the actual GI doc for a consult. I know a PA working with our staff pulmonologist who does the majority of the bronchoscopies. (I actually didn't know this was a procedure that PA's typically do... not sure if the doc is present when she does them).

 

Our ED group would probably roll out a red carpet to get you on staff. I work with a group that has some seriously burnout docs, many of whom are intent on doing as LITTLE work as possible. If you could run codes, intubate, do LP's and all that fun stuff... they'd be more than happy to let you handle all that while they play Candy Crush on their iPad.

 

Have you considered practicing in a different state that is a bit more PA friendly? I keep hearing about PA's having to explain to patients what they do... and I've rarely ever had to do that. The few times when I do, I've never had a patient protest or even so much look at me askance. I think in some states, patients are just so used to seeing PA's that they just intuitively grasp the team based model. 

[Mainer]

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 07:37 PM

 

I would even consider becoming a Nurse Practitioner. I have thoroughly explored this forum and sought advice from many people in here. Based on my conversations, these are my thoughts:

 

1. You are not governed by the AMA and the nursing powers that be are extremely respected and effective. I personally believe there are more leadership opportunities in the nursing field compared to being a PA. 

 

WHERE I'M FROM, PA'S ARE CERTAINLY MORE RESPECTED, PRIMARILY FOR THEIR SUPERIOR CLINICAL SKILLS. 

 

2. While the curriculum is better and more consistent in PA school, most of the PA's and NP's that I talk to tell me that they're on an evening playing field after practicing for a couple years. It's unfortunate that many NP programs have fluff classes. However, there are some programs with a better curriculum (that would require research on your part).

 

THE CURRICULUM IS SUPERIOR IN PA SCHOOL.....FOR INSTANCE

PA SCHOOL 128 CREDITS, OVER 5000 HOURS OF CLINICAL AND DIDACTIC EDUCATION/TRAINING - IN REAL MEDICINE.  PRE-REQS FOR PA, PT, AND MD/DO ARE SIMILAR EXCEPT MD/DO TAKE THE MCAT. 

 

DNP SCHOOL 80+/- CREDITS, LESS THAN 2500 HOURS OF TOTAL TRAINING (800 HOURS CLINICAL) AND THE DIDACTIC IS FLUFF IN COMPARISON RIDDLED WITH NURSING THEORY AND LEADERSHIP COURSES.  PRE-REQS ARE MINIMAL.  SCOPE OF PRACTICE IS LIMITED AS RESULT OF THE LIMITED EDUCATION. 

 

ENTRY LEVEL DPT AVERAGES 90 -100 (MY PROGRAM WAS 99 CREDITS ) CREDITS, I HAD ABOUT 1500-1600 HOURS OF CLINICAL TRAINING IN MY PROGRAM. 

 

I'VE BEEN TO PA SCHOOL, ATC SCHOOL AND DPT SCHOOL, PA WAS BY FAR THE MOST INTENSE AND DEMANDING. 

 

3. The PA profession is not fully recognized yet in some medical organizations outside the U.S. The fact that PA's cannot join Doctors without Borders is stupid, but at this point in time it is what it is. 

 

MD IS PROBABLY THE ONLY EXCEPTION, BECAUSE, PA, NP AREN'T UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED IN ALL COUNTRYS,  

 

4. I do not agree with the state decisions, but NP's have independence in over 18 states. I personally believe they should still work collaboratively with MD's/DO's, but the fact that they had enough power to get this approved speaks volumes. PA's will never have this capability nor will physicians let it happen. "

 

THIS MAY CHANGE FOR PA'S IN THE FUTURE.....ON SOME LEVEL, I THINK IT'S A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY, BECAUSE NOBODY PRACTICES INDEPENDENTLY IF THEY CAN HELP IT.  LIVING ON AN ISLAND IS NO FUN IN MEDICINE.  NP'S LACK THE ENTRY LEVEL EDUCATION TO PRACTICE INDEPENDENTLY.  MD'S ARE LEAVING PRIVATE PRACTICE AND BEING BOUGHT UP BY HOSPITALS ECT.  IF YOU WANT TO HANG A SHINGLE OUT, BECOME A DENTIST OR STAY WORKING AS A PT.  WITH ALL THE REQUIREMENTS IN MEDICINE, EMR'S, REGULATIONS, IT'S A TUFF GIG THAT MD'S AND DO'S ARE RUNNING FROM. 

 

THE POINT IS, DEGREE CREEP DOESN'T MAKE IT BETTER.  YEARS OF EDUCATION ISN'T THE SAME AS CONTENT AND HOURS.  (I GUESS I WOULD HAVE A "4 YEAR DEGREE" IF I TOOK 2 CLASSES A YEAR FOR FOUR YEARS FOR A TOTAL OF 24 CREDITS.) 

 

PA-C, PT, ATC, PHD

[EMEDPA]

one advantage of "independence" is being able to get specialty jobs without having to arrange an SP. this is huge. it has very little to do with practicing independenlty, it's about getting licensed as an individual not dependent on someone else looking over your shoulder. independent PAs could also open urgent care centers, do home visits more easily(talk to Jeff Kellog about that...) , etc. All these folks would still consult as needed but not be required to be shackled to a doc in order to practice. They could get bank loans more easily, etc.

ask JMJ how much easier his life would be if he wasn't required to have a 1% MD partner in his practice.

[2234leej]

 

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 07:37 PM

 

I would even consider becoming a Nurse Practitioner. I have thoroughly explored this forum and sought advice from many people in here. Based on my conversations, these are my thoughts:

 

1. You are not governed by the AMA and the nursing powers that be are extremely respected and effective. I personally believe there are more leadership opportunities in the nursing field compared to being a PA. 

 

WHERE I'M FROM, PA'S ARE CERTAINLY MORE RESPECTED, PRIMARILY FOR THEIR SUPERIOR CLINICAL SKILLS. 

 

2. While the curriculum is better and more consistent in PA school, most of the PA's and NP's that I talk to tell me that they're on an evening playing field after practicing for a couple years. It's unfortunate that many NP programs have fluff classes. However, there are some programs with a better curriculum (that would require research on your part).

 

THE CURRICULUM IS SUPERIOR IN PA SCHOOL.....FOR INSTANCE

PA SCHOOL 128 CREDITS, OVER 5000 HOURS OF CLINICAL AND DIDACTIC EDUCATION/TRAINING - IN REAL MEDICINE.  PRE-REQS FOR PA, PT, AND MD/DO ARE SIMILAR EXCEPT MD/DO TAKE THE MCAT. 

 

DNP SCHOOL 80+/- CREDITS, LESS THAN 2500 HOURS OF TOTAL TRAINING (800 HOURS CLINICAL) AND THE DIDACTIC IS FLUFF IN COMPARISON RIDDLED WITH NURSING THEORY AND LEADERSHIP COURSES.  PRE-REQS ARE MINIMAL.  SCOPE OF PRACTICE IS LIMITED AS RESULT OF THE LIMITED EDUCATION. 

 

ENTRY LEVEL DPT AVERAGES 90 -100 (MY PROGRAM WAS 99 CREDITS ) CREDITS, I HAD ABOUT 1500-1600 HOURS OF CLINICAL TRAINING IN MY PROGRAM. 

 

I'VE BEEN TO PA SCHOOL, ATC SCHOOL AND DPT SCHOOL, PA WAS BY FAR THE MOST INTENSE AND DEMANDING. 

 

3. The PA profession is not fully recognized yet in some medical organizations outside the U.S. The fact that PA's cannot join Doctors without Borders is stupid, but at this point in time it is what it is. 

 

MD IS PROBABLY THE ONLY EXCEPTION, BECAUSE, PA, NP AREN'T UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED IN ALL COUNTRYS,  

 

4. I do not agree with the state decisions, but NP's have independence in over 18 states. I personally believe they should still work collaboratively with MD's/DO's, but the fact that they had enough power to get this approved speaks volumes. PA's will never have this capability nor will physicians let it happen. "

 

THIS MAY CHANGE FOR PA'S IN THE FUTURE.....ON SOME LEVEL, I THINK IT'S A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY, BECAUSE NOBODY PRACTICES INDEPENDENTLY IF THEY CAN HELP IT.  LIVING ON AN ISLAND IS NO FUN IN MEDICINE.  NP'S LACK THE ENTRY LEVEL EDUCATION TO PRACTICE INDEPENDENTLY.  MD'S ARE LEAVING PRIVATE PRACTICE AND BEING BOUGHT UP BY HOSPITALS ECT.  IF YOU WANT TO HANG A SHINGLE OUT, BECOME A DENTIST OR STAY WORKING AS A PT.  WITH ALL THE REQUIREMENTS IN MEDICINE, EMR'S, REGULATIONS, IT'S A TUFF GIG THAT MD'S AND DO'S ARE RUNNING FROM. 

 

THE POINT IS, DEGREE CREEP DOESN'T MAKE IT BETTER.  YEARS OF EDUCATION ISN'T THE SAME AS CONTENT AND HOURS.  (I GUESS I WOULD HAVE A "4 YEAR DEGREE" IF I TOOK 2 CLASSES A YEAR FOR FOUR YEARS FOR A TOTAL OF 24 CREDITS.) 

 

PA-C, PT, ATC, PHD

 

 

Your posts indicate that you and I are in agreement in regards to the PA curriculum/education. It is far and away more consistent than NP education (as I said, there are good programs, you just have to do your research). I had a couple classes with PA students at my school and was impressed by their work ethic. PA school is difficult in that there are a lot credits jammed into such a short time.

 

One huge benefit for NP education (at least for myself) is the fact that I can complete it while working. Cashflow of some kind is extremely important to me at this stage in my life.

 

I completed my PT orthopedic residency at the University of Chicago Medical Center. I did it immediately post graduate school and I am extremely grateful that I did. There is a significant amount of orthopedic conditions seen in primary care, urgent care, and emergency medicine (all of which I'm interested in). Whichever area I end up going to, I believe my PT education and residency will give me an edge that a lot of other clinicians will not have. In my opinion, I believe my background will help supplement my NP education. The scope of practice is more specific in nursing education (FNP, ANP, etc.), but for whatever reason, there are a TON more openings for NPs than there are for PA's where I live. These hospitals do not seem concerned that the education is inferior. I do not know how they choose but it is what it is.

 

 

[EMEDPA]

One huge benefit for NP education (at least for myself) is the fact that I can complete it while working. Cashflow of some kind is extremely important to me at this stage in my life.

 

 

there are 7-8 part time programs for PA school out there, the nl yr 1 is done over 2 years then year 2 is a full time yr 3. I did the one at Drexel and worked 24 hrs/week as a medic yr 1 and 2.

[db_pavnp]

Is there a list of part time PA programs compiled anywhere?

[EMEDPA]

Is there a list of part time PA programs compiled anywhere?

may be out of date:

16. List of part time (2 yrs of classwork in 3 yrs) programs:

According to the Physician Assistant Education Association website there are 7 schools which offer a part time option.

 

1. University of Maryland Eastern Shore (Maryland)

2. University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey (New Jersey)

3. D’Youville College (New York)

4. Daemen College (New York)

5. Drexel University Hahnemann (Pennsylvania)

6. University of Washington (Washington)

7. University of Wisconsin-Madison (Wisconsin)