CoastalPalm Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 PA vs NP...this is what I'm trying to figure out as well, and it's a somewhat difficult decision for me. I LOVE the PA educational model. Looking at the courses, I appreciate that it's essentially an abbreviated form of medical school, designed to give the student the knowledge to begin practice as an "advanced practice clinician". The heavy science (both basic and medical) focus of the programs are very attractive to me. In contrast, NP programs seem less rigorous to me (though they certainly include courses in pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. And with the DNP, it seems like they just add on more fluff, with no real clinical/medical science additions. And the 1000 hours of clinical in the DNP programs is still less than that of PA programs (and prior nursing experience, while beneficial (I know PAs can appreciate prior healthcare experience), is not the same as experience in learning to function as an "advanced practice clinician"). It also seems to me that NP program clinical experiences are more "preceptorships", and I am more interested in the traditional medical model of clinical learning, though maybe that's because that's pretty much what I've been exposed to at work, outside of the random NP students precepting. On the other hand, the advances in the NP profession are certainly attractive, especially their expansion as "independent" providers, as well as various restrictions (here in NY, it seems like the "collaboration" required for NPs is functionally "independence", though I'm not sure how the "supervision" of PAs is in comparison. I was reading the ER PA scope of practice at my hospital yesterday, and it seems like they have decent scope, with various diagnoses falling under the "treat and release" heading, where they can diagnose, manage, treat, etc the patient and discharge them without presenting to the attending (though nothing too exciting, mostly primary care issues), and all others requiring presentation to the attending if admission is necessary.) They also have the benefits that come from being part of the nursing profession, with various opportunities for leadership and other clinical practice options that may not be available to PAs. Downside is I'd have to get my BSN, at least a year experience, then 3 years for the DNP-ACNP. So not sure which way to go at this point, though I do appreciate the goals of PAFT as I've read on this forum and their website. My interests lie in cardiothoracic surgery, critical care, and transplant (not interested in family medicine, peds, or psych), areas that seem to be more open to PAs than NPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalPalm Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 PA vs NP...this is what I'm trying to figure out as well, and it's a somewhat difficult decision for me. I LOVE the PA educational model. Looking at the courses, I appreciate that it's essentially an abbreviated form of medical school, designed to give the student the knowledge to begin practice as an "advanced practice clinician". The heavy science (both basic and medical) focus of the programs are very attractive to me. In contrast, NP programs seem less rigorous to me (though they certainly include courses in pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. And with the DNP, it seems like they just add on more fluff, with no real clinical/medical science additions. And the 1000 hours of clinical in the DNP programs is still less than that of PA programs (and prior nursing experience, while beneficial (I know PAs can appreciate prior healthcare experience), is not the same as experience in learning to function as an "advanced practice clinician"). It also seems to me that NP program clinical experiences are more "preceptorships", and I am more interested in the traditional medical model of clinical learning, though maybe that's because that's pretty much what I've been exposed to at work, outside of the random NP students precepting. On the other hand, the advances in the NP profession are certainly attractive, especially their expansion as "independent" providers, as well as various restrictions (here in NY, it seems like the "collaboration" required for NPs is functionally "independence", though I'm not sure how the "supervision" of PAs is in comparison. I was reading the ER PA scope of practice at my hospital yesterday, and it seems like they have decent scope, with various diagnoses falling under the "treat and release" heading, where they can diagnose, manage, treat, etc the patient and discharge them without presenting to the attending (though nothing too exciting, mostly primary care issues), and all others requiring presentation to the attending if admission is necessary.) They also have the benefits that come from being part of the nursing profession, with various opportunities for leadership and other clinical practice options that may not be available to PAs. Downside is I'd have to get my BSN, at least a year experience, then 3 years for the DNP-ACNP. So not sure which way to go at this point, though I do appreciate the goals of PAFT as I've read on this forum and their website. My interests lie in cardiothoracic surgery, critical care, and transplant (not interested in family medicine, peds, or psych), areas that seem to be more open to PAs than NPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Hmm? This isn't the case in California, the NPs have to take a controlled substances course as well as PAs. If there was a post on here about a 20 dollar an hour job, trust me that it was posted so that we could laugh at it. PAs generally make a very high salary. Hmm? is right. This is a troll who'll pop up on here periodically and spew complete, incorrect nonsense. Likes to dot the posts with ALL CAPS for EFFECT. Probably past super-poster now trying to stir the pot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Hmm? This isn't the case in California, the NPs have to take a controlled substances course as well as PAs. If there was a post on here about a 20 dollar an hour job, trust me that it was posted so that we could laugh at it. PAs generally make a very high salary. Hmm? is right. This is a troll who'll pop up on here periodically and spew complete, incorrect nonsense. Likes to dot the posts with ALL CAPS for EFFECT. Probably past super-poster now trying to stir the pot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Hmm? This isn't the case in California, the NPs have to take a controlled substances course as well as PAs. If there was a post on here about a 20 dollar an hour job, trust me that it was posted so that we could laugh at it. PAs generally make a very high salary. Hmm? is right. This is a troll who'll pop up on here periodically and spew complete, incorrect nonsense. Likes to dot the posts with ALL CAPS for EFFECT. Probably past super-poster now trying to stir the pot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 as the NP's leave us in the dust in the political realm I am starting to think I want to somehow go back and get an NP They are kicking our butts VA will hire NP's (because they are independent) in the 80-140k range PA get hired in the $45-90k range - no joke that is the local recent salary ranges I would not want to go through only NP school as I honestly can not see learning any less then I did in PA school and not being dangerous..... gotta learn the hard sciences.... BUT if there was some way to take a distance NP course now over a year or so I would sign up in a heart beat..... Goes both ways and depends on what "microcosm" you belong to. Met a group of ER NPs at Pharm meeting the other night, 5 out of the 7 stated to numerous people they wish they had gone to PA school instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 as the NP's leave us in the dust in the political realm I am starting to think I want to somehow go back and get an NP They are kicking our butts VA will hire NP's (because they are independent) in the 80-140k range PA get hired in the $45-90k range - no joke that is the local recent salary ranges I would not want to go through only NP school as I honestly can not see learning any less then I did in PA school and not being dangerous..... gotta learn the hard sciences.... BUT if there was some way to take a distance NP course now over a year or so I would sign up in a heart beat..... Goes both ways and depends on what "microcosm" you belong to. Met a group of ER NPs at Pharm meeting the other night, 5 out of the 7 stated to numerous people they wish they had gone to PA school instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 as the NP's leave us in the dust in the political realm I am starting to think I want to somehow go back and get an NP They are kicking our butts VA will hire NP's (because they are independent) in the 80-140k range PA get hired in the $45-90k range - no joke that is the local recent salary ranges I would not want to go through only NP school as I honestly can not see learning any less then I did in PA school and not being dangerous..... gotta learn the hard sciences.... BUT if there was some way to take a distance NP course now over a year or so I would sign up in a heart beat..... Goes both ways and depends on what "microcosm" you belong to. Met a group of ER NPs at Pharm meeting the other night, 5 out of the 7 stated to numerous people they wish they had gone to PA school instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 NPs are on the ascendence in many areas of the country. I think that has more to do with supervision rules that may stem from the difference in the regulatory environment (being managed by the Nursing Board and not the Medical Board), being "the tip of the spear" in the very large and well-organized nursing field, and some traditional aspects of the PA job that have persisted since its beginnings. The fact that physicians are less interested in supervising PAs (or anyone else) is playing into that, along with other changes in the practice of medicine. That said, I would still rather be a PA. I was trained across the spectrum of medicine and able to plug into a variety of jobs. I can talk intelligently with my cardiac patients about what will happen when they have their gallbladders removed, hips replaced, or see a psychiatrist. NP training appears to depend on whatever the nurse's clinical experience was prior to entering NP school. Their clinical exposure in school is considerably more limited, which probably makes it a good thing that they specialize in narrower areas of medicine. They are fine people and the NP in our practice is fantastic. (Her pre-NP experience was as a charge nurse in a cardiac ICU.) Clearly we must do more as a profession to put ourselves on a better footing going forward. I like what I see when I read comments on this forum. It's time to put some of those thoughts into action. Maybe we can get a bridge program from PA to NP so that we can be independent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 NPs are on the ascendence in many areas of the country. I think that has more to do with supervision rules that may stem from the difference in the regulatory environment (being managed by the Nursing Board and not the Medical Board), being "the tip of the spear" in the very large and well-organized nursing field, and some traditional aspects of the PA job that have persisted since its beginnings. The fact that physicians are less interested in supervising PAs (or anyone else) is playing into that, along with other changes in the practice of medicine. That said, I would still rather be a PA. I was trained across the spectrum of medicine and able to plug into a variety of jobs. I can talk intelligently with my cardiac patients about what will happen when they have their gallbladders removed, hips replaced, or see a psychiatrist. NP training appears to depend on whatever the nurse's clinical experience was prior to entering NP school. Their clinical exposure in school is considerably more limited, which probably makes it a good thing that they specialize in narrower areas of medicine. They are fine people and the NP in our practice is fantastic. (Her pre-NP experience was as a charge nurse in a cardiac ICU.) Clearly we must do more as a profession to put ourselves on a better footing going forward. I like what I see when I read comments on this forum. It's time to put some of those thoughts into action. Maybe we can get a bridge program from PA to NP so that we can be independent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cupojava Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I thought about it before becoming a PA. I'm glad I am a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cupojava Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I thought about it before becoming a PA. I'm glad I am a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I would never goto NP school, sorry. I wanted to be trained by Doctors, not nurses, and I was. Plus I can hop specialties whenever I want, should I choose to. Like emed, if there was ever any consideration for me it was medical school vs PA school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I would never goto NP school, sorry. I wanted to be trained by Doctors, not nurses, and I was. Plus I can hop specialties whenever I want, should I choose to. Like emed, if there was ever any consideration for me it was medical school vs PA school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinjvazquez Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Maybe we can get a bridge program from PA to NP so that we can be independent It would be cool if PAs with valid RN licenses could challenge the FNP boards. At the very least it could give them more leverage politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinjvazquez Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Maybe we can get a bridge program from PA to NP so that we can be independent It would be cool if PAs with valid RN licenses could challenge the FNP boards. At the very least it could give them more leverage politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpSite Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 It would be cool if PAs with valid RN licenses could challenge the FNP boards. At the very least it could give them more leverage politically. I LOVE that idea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpSite Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 It would be cool if PAs with valid RN licenses could challenge the FNP boards. At the very least it could give them more leverage politically. I LOVE that idea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAP1986 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 PA vs NP...this is what I'm trying to figure out as well, and it's a somewhat difficult decision for me. I LOVE the PA educational model. Looking at the courses, I appreciate that it's essentially an abbreviated form of medical school, designed to give the student the knowledge to begin practice as an "advanced practice clinician". The heavy science (both basic and medical) focus of the programs are very attractive to me. In contrast, NP programs seem less rigorous to me (though they certainly include courses in pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. And with the DNP, it seems like they just add on more fluff, with no real clinical/medical science additions. And the 1000 hours of clinical in the DNP programs is still less than that of PA programs (and prior nursing experience, while beneficial (I know PAs can appreciate prior healthcare experience), is not the same as experience in learning to function as an "advanced practice clinician"). It also seems to me that NP program clinical experiences are more "preceptorships", and I am more interested in the traditional medical model of clinical learning, though maybe that's because that's pretty much what I've been exposed to at work, outside of the random NP students precepting. On the other hand, the advances in the NP profession are certainly attractive, especially their expansion as "independent" providers, as well as various restrictions (here in NY, it seems like the "collaboration" required for NPs is functionally "independence", though I'm not sure how the "supervision" of PAs is in comparison. I was reading the ER PA scope of practice at my hospital yesterday, and it seems like they have decent scope, with various diagnoses falling under the "treat and release" heading, where they can diagnose, manage, treat, etc the patient and discharge them without presenting to the attending (though nothing too exciting, mostly primary care issues), and all others requiring presentation to the attending if admission is necessary.) They also have the benefits that come from being part of the nursing profession, with various opportunities for leadership and other clinical practice options that may not be available to PAs. Downside is I'd have to get my BSN, at least a year experience, then 3 years for the DNP-ACNP. So not sure which way to go at this point, though I do appreciate the goals of PAFT as I've read on this forum and their website. My interests lie in cardiothoracic surgery, critical care, and transplant (not interested in family medicine, peds, or psych), areas that seem to be more open to PAs than NPs. I also agree that the PA training model is superior, and that a generalist training makes for a better provider, even if one branches off into a specialty. I also believe in the advanced training in pharmacology, assessment, and diagnostic testing found in PA school. I think the strengths of the PA profession lie in the technical skills and procedures they can offer, which are quite well suited to cardiothoracic surgery. That being said, there are very accelerated NP programs if you are interested. Vanderbilt for example will take someone with a non-nursing bachelor's degree, and in 24 months you can become a nurse practitioner. In 3 semesters you get your RN and in 3 semesters you get your MSN, and that's not just for family NP. You bypass the BSN entirely, though in many programs you get the BSN in 4 semesters and then go on to the MSN. Emory and Duke also have accelerated programs, though they tend to be more like 3-4 years total rather than 2 years. Doing the accelerated route makes you less competitive than a non-accelerated route NP for sure, and hospitals are reluctant to hire NPs to work as RNs for them to get more experience before moving into the advanced practice clinician role. But with optional residencies (which I would shoot for if I went that route) and the fact that many of the accelerated programs are willing to hire their own grads and give on the job training, it might not be so bad. Also, keep in mind the DNP is a recommendation and not a mandate. Until accrediting bodies and legislation (practice acts) require NPs to get the DNP, it is optional. I think the DNP is a political tactic to advance full practice authority acts, and is mostly useful for people wanting to do administration or open private practices. Also, some DNP degrees do have additional clinical training. Vanderbilt's DNP has an acute care residency for those with the acute care NP certification. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAP1986 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 PA vs NP...this is what I'm trying to figure out as well, and it's a somewhat difficult decision for me. I LOVE the PA educational model. Looking at the courses, I appreciate that it's essentially an abbreviated form of medical school, designed to give the student the knowledge to begin practice as an "advanced practice clinician". The heavy science (both basic and medical) focus of the programs are very attractive to me. In contrast, NP programs seem less rigorous to me (though they certainly include courses in pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc. And with the DNP, it seems like they just add on more fluff, with no real clinical/medical science additions. And the 1000 hours of clinical in the DNP programs is still less than that of PA programs (and prior nursing experience, while beneficial (I know PAs can appreciate prior healthcare experience), is not the same as experience in learning to function as an "advanced practice clinician"). It also seems to me that NP program clinical experiences are more "preceptorships", and I am more interested in the traditional medical model of clinical learning, though maybe that's because that's pretty much what I've been exposed to at work, outside of the random NP students precepting. On the other hand, the advances in the NP profession are certainly attractive, especially their expansion as "independent" providers, as well as various restrictions (here in NY, it seems like the "collaboration" required for NPs is functionally "independence", though I'm not sure how the "supervision" of PAs is in comparison. I was reading the ER PA scope of practice at my hospital yesterday, and it seems like they have decent scope, with various diagnoses falling under the "treat and release" heading, where they can diagnose, manage, treat, etc the patient and discharge them without presenting to the attending (though nothing too exciting, mostly primary care issues), and all others requiring presentation to the attending if admission is necessary.) They also have the benefits that come from being part of the nursing profession, with various opportunities for leadership and other clinical practice options that may not be available to PAs. Downside is I'd have to get my BSN, at least a year experience, then 3 years for the DNP-ACNP. So not sure which way to go at this point, though I do appreciate the goals of PAFT as I've read on this forum and their website. My interests lie in cardiothoracic surgery, critical care, and transplant (not interested in family medicine, peds, or psych), areas that seem to be more open to PAs than NPs. I also agree that the PA training model is superior, and that a generalist training makes for a better provider, even if one branches off into a specialty. I also believe in the advanced training in pharmacology, assessment, and diagnostic testing found in PA school. I think the strengths of the PA profession lie in the technical skills and procedures they can offer, which are quite well suited to cardiothoracic surgery. That being said, there are very accelerated NP programs if you are interested. Vanderbilt for example will take someone with a non-nursing bachelor's degree, and in 24 months you can become a nurse practitioner. In 3 semesters you get your RN and in 3 semesters you get your MSN, and that's not just for family NP. You bypass the BSN entirely, though in many programs you get the BSN in 4 semesters and then go on to the MSN. Emory and Duke also have accelerated programs, though they tend to be more like 3-4 years total rather than 2 years. Doing the accelerated route makes you less competitive than a non-accelerated route NP for sure, and hospitals are reluctant to hire NPs to work as RNs for them to get more experience before moving into the advanced practice clinician role. But with optional residencies (which I would shoot for if I went that route) and the fact that many of the accelerated programs are willing to hire their own grads and give on the job training, it might not be so bad. Also, keep in mind the DNP is a recommendation and not a mandate. Until accrediting bodies and legislation (practice acts) require NPs to get the DNP, it is optional. I think the DNP is a political tactic to advance full practice authority acts, and is mostly useful for people wanting to do administration or open private practices. Also, some DNP degrees do have additional clinical training. Vanderbilt's DNP has an acute care residency for those with the acute care NP certification. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I also agree that the PA training model is superior, and that a generalist training makes for a better provider, even if one branches off into a specialty. I also believe in the advanced training in pharmacology, assessment, and diagnostic testing found in PA school. I think the strengths of the PA profession lie in the technical skills and procedures they can offer, which are quite well suited to cardiothoracic surgery. That being said, there are very accelerated NP programs if you are interested. Vanderbilt for example will take someone with a non-nursing bachelor's degree, and in 24 months you can become a nurse practitioner. In 3 semesters you get your RN and in 3 semesters you get your MSN, and that's not just for family NP. You bypass the BSN entirely, though in many programs you get the BSN in 4 semesters and then go on to the MSN. Emory and Duke also have accelerated programs, though they tend to be more like 3-4 years total rather than 2 years. Doing the accelerated route makes you less competitive than a non-accelerated route NP for sure, and hospitals are reluctant to hire NPs to work as RNs for them to get more experience before moving into the advanced practice clinician role. But with optional residencies (which I would shoot for if I went that route) and the fact that many of the accelerated programs are willing to hire their own grads and give on the job training, it might not be so bad. Also, keep in mind the DNP is a recommendation and not a mandate. Until accrediting bodies and legislation (practice acts) require NPs to get the DNP, it is optional. I think the DNP is a political tactic to advance full practice authority acts, and is mostly useful for people wanting to do administration or open private practices. Also, some DNP degrees do have additional clinical training. Vanderbilt's DNP has an acute care residency for those with the acute care NP certification. Just my two cents. Being that there is no other advancement/ bridge programs for the pa profession, i think it would send a clear message if pas leave the proffession and get np status so we can become independent. after practicing for many years i would think most would have a clear choice of a set field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I also agree that the PA training model is superior, and that a generalist training makes for a better provider, even if one branches off into a specialty. I also believe in the advanced training in pharmacology, assessment, and diagnostic testing found in PA school. I think the strengths of the PA profession lie in the technical skills and procedures they can offer, which are quite well suited to cardiothoracic surgery. That being said, there are very accelerated NP programs if you are interested. Vanderbilt for example will take someone with a non-nursing bachelor's degree, and in 24 months you can become a nurse practitioner. In 3 semesters you get your RN and in 3 semesters you get your MSN, and that's not just for family NP. You bypass the BSN entirely, though in many programs you get the BSN in 4 semesters and then go on to the MSN. Emory and Duke also have accelerated programs, though they tend to be more like 3-4 years total rather than 2 years. Doing the accelerated route makes you less competitive than a non-accelerated route NP for sure, and hospitals are reluctant to hire NPs to work as RNs for them to get more experience before moving into the advanced practice clinician role. But with optional residencies (which I would shoot for if I went that route) and the fact that many of the accelerated programs are willing to hire their own grads and give on the job training, it might not be so bad. Also, keep in mind the DNP is a recommendation and not a mandate. Until accrediting bodies and legislation (practice acts) require NPs to get the DNP, it is optional. I think the DNP is a political tactic to advance full practice authority acts, and is mostly useful for people wanting to do administration or open private practices. Also, some DNP degrees do have additional clinical training. Vanderbilt's DNP has an acute care residency for those with the acute care NP certification. Just my two cents. Being that there is no other advancement/ bridge programs for the pa profession, i think it would send a clear message if pas leave the proffession and get np status so we can become independent. after practicing for many years i would think most would have a clear choice of a set field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkuhns1 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Being that there is no other advancement/ bridge programs for the pa profession Shame that you didnt know that before you entered the profession, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkuhns1 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Being that there is no other advancement/ bridge programs for the pa profession Shame that you didnt know that before you entered the profession, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 9, 2013 Being that there is no other advancement/ bridge programs for the pa profession... there is the PA to DO bridge at lecom....if I was younger I would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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