Revised offer is disappointing. How to respond?

[SpikeDaCat]

I am negotiating a contract with an UC chain, and we're down to pay considerations. The initial offer was $39/hr, which is way too low. I gave him three examples of hard data (AAPA, AAUCM, MGMA) that indicate that median pay is $50+/hr for urgent care PAs, and mentioned that local new grads 5 years ago report $42/hr starting UC pay. (I have 8 mos of very applicable, very autonomous experience.) He said he would take it all into consideration, look at the "bottom line" and get back to me.

 

I just got the new contract, and the new offer is... wait for it... $41.

 

Seriously???

 

I'm not sure how to reply. I do not want to walk away because that's still more than I'm making now (with benefits when I become FT, which I don't have now), and I feel like taking this job would open a lot of doors for me now and down the road. At the same time though, I don't want to set (or continue) a precedence of being underpaid. I was really hoping that they would split the difference and offer about $45/hr to start. Not so.

 

My gut reaction is to reply and ask a few questions:

1. Why was I not offered more after demonstrating that the initial offer was very low compared to industry standards (and other new UC PAs)? Is there any wiggle room for, say, $2 more per hour?

2. Is this intended to be a temporary rate during my part-time "training period," and if I prove myself, what might the increase be when I become full-time? (He mentioned this possibility to me when I met with him on Monday)

3. The handbook says that raises will be in line with "industry standards." Based on that, and assuming my performance is satisfactory, how long would you expect it to take for me to be earning "median" pay? 3 years? 5 years? Ever??

 

Do I dare reply and ask some or all of these questions? Your advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

[burnpac]

A lot of things factor into this decision. Geography is one. It this is in an urban area, expect to make less that rural areas. By my calculations, this amounts to 85K FT per year. With a standard benefit package (ins., PTO, 401k, CME, etc.), this would add another 20%. One thing is for sure, working another 6-12 months would make your CV look that much better. Part of what should be clear in the employee manual, and in your contract, is when and how compensation is reconsidered. This should not be vague. Do you get a raise after a successful 6 months? Are there productivity incentives? Profit sharing? This should all be in writing.

 

Only you know your current situation and financial needs. These decisions are tough. All the best to you.

[Guest Paula]

$45/hr. is not unreasonable, $41 too low. I work rural and was paid to start $45/hr at a walk-in clinic, part time back in 2004, in Wisconsin. If I remember right, this job is prn or weekend fill-in and may lead to full-time later on? Have you been able to talk to any other PAs who work at the same UC or with the same company? How much revenue does the clinic produce yearly? How many patients are seen on a yearly basis? Are PAs paid any bonuses based on revenues above a certain %? If you decide to ask them the questions you listed, do not ask in a way where you will get a no answer. I would revise your questions:

 

1. I demonstrated that the industry standard is $50 per hour and according to your handbook I see the company follows "industry standards".

[Guest Paula]

oops, half of my post did not come through. To finish#1: How can we come to a reasonable industry standard wage? Do not ask the wiggle room question...they will say no.

 

2. I would expect to be paid industry standard as the starting wage. There is no reason to settle for a " training wage". Remember this is a for-profit company and they only care about the bottom line, not employees as we wish companies would care about us. Ask...How can we come to a wage that is satisfactory to both of us? They want to hire someone who will stay and produce, plus be an excellent clinician, you want to be paid the industry standard wage for the PA profession.

 

3. If you end up with a lower wage than you want, then with the last question you should think about putting in the contract that you will be at the median wage within 1 year. Get every detail possible for wage, hours, expectations, raises, etc. have them define what they mean by "industry standards" for wages. Does it mean annual cost of living wage based on government figures?

 

Good luck. Remember this is business, it is not personal.

[SpikeDaCat]

Thanks. This is suburban Utah, beginning part time, becoming full time later. Yes, I did talk to some UC PAs in Utah, who provided some good information. I don't know how much revenue they're bringing in, but I know that most of their clinics are very, very busy.

 

So, I did something gutsy this morning. I replied as follows:

 

Thank you for sending me the revised contract. I appreciate your consideration on the matter of pay.

 

As part of researching the initial offer, In addition to the sources I gave you, I also spoke with a few local Urgent Care PAs who told me that when they started 4-5 years ago, they were offered $42/hr right out of school, and are now making $50+/hr. I have 8 months of fairly autonomous experience treating predominantly walk-in and same-day concerns (including the usage of several common procedural skills), so, naturally, I would anticipate a pay rate a little higher than what a new graduate might typically make today.

Therefore, taking into consideration the average/mean pay data I gave you Monday, the wage information I gained from my peers, and my prior experience, I feel that $45/hr is a fair request.

 

If you disagree, please help me to understand how you arrived at the present offer, and why a higher pay rate may not be possible or appropriate at this time.

Once again, I very much appreciate your consideration and reconsideration on this aspect of my contract. I will look forward to hearing from you soon.

 

I realize this was a pretty bold thing to do, but I was tired of dancing around and implying that they should pay me more... so as politely as possible, I laid it all out there and told them what I think is fair. I'm on pins and needles awaiting a reply...

[Guest Paula]

Very nice and appropriate response. Stick to the $45. I hope the best for you and let us know how it all turns out. Paula

[Guest Paula]

P.S. A thought. If they do not offer you the $45, and still offer less you could outline to them the following:

 

I am a detailed person and I spent time in due diligence to research appropriate and industry standard wages for my profession. This shows that I will be a diligent PA who knows how to apply evidence based medicine and will provide your company an excellent clinician. This is one of my strengths so I am deserving of the $45/hr. (When you get hired be ready to prove it.)

[EMEDPA]

good for you for sticking to your guns. if nothing else they may counter at 42.50 which is still better than 41.

[BroncoPAS]

I'm on pins and needles awaiting a reply...

 

Let us know how it goes, good luck!

[ventana]

I would compose a very nice response and thank them for reconsidering and point out that the offer and your counter offer are really not that far apart. Suggest simply splitting the difference to an aprox $45/hour. Be very nice and thankful, do not be negative. Say that you have done a lot of soul searching and really the lowest you can go is $45/hr

 

If they don't budge then walk away....... politely but walk away - sort of like walking off the used car sales lot - the salesperson thinks they are going to loose the sale and suddenly they call you back the next day or next week with another offer......

 

if I remember right they approached you for this job?

 

only coming up $2 shows that they have room to move, but don't want to.... they know what you are worth and honestly to them the $4 hour is not very much but it is sig to you.....

 

 

 

counter a very pleasant $45, then walk away and let them stew about it - remember the first person to blink looses

[SpikeDaCat]

Got a reply this morning...

 

Hi Christine,

 

I am not sure what states your PAs friend are working in. I don't think they are working here in Utah. The urgent care back east and in CA are very busy and do need help. They are growing much faster than in Utah, where we can only see half of the insured population-- unlike in other market. As for the local market, I have tons of PAs looking for job (thus the delay in making decision in your case). They say [large local medical group] are paying them in the $30's/hr. Other employers are the same. Dr. [X] and I have interviewed many midlevels in the past 2 months, and we still have a few more to interview -- thus the source of my salary data. This is actual data, just like your current salary, while your source is not accurate for this market.

 

 

 

Thanks and I hope that helps.

 

So, they're holding firm at $41. I'm a little miffed that he thinks the info I got from my "PA friends" is not accurate and not "actual data," when the fact is they ARE local, and the $42-$50 really is what they told me... but I also believe that he has spoken to many more urgent care PAs than I have.

 

I suspect that he and I both pick and choose our data when it comes to pay: I presented data to him from AAPA, MGMA, and AAUCM which portrayed higher wages for UC PAs ($48-$55/hr), while not sharing data from other (less-reputable) sources which indicated that UT UC PA pay is lower - like in the $80-90k/yr range. I suspect that he does know of PAs working in UC who make what I am requesting, but would rather tell me about the lower-paid PAs to support his stance. However, I do not want to argue this point, as I do not think any degree of accusation or confrontation would work to my benefit.

 

This reply strikes me as a "take it or leave it" situation. It sounds like they're done negotiating, and I'm not going to push my luck any further.

 

ventana - I wish I could walk away to make a point, but I just don't think I have that much leverage. The implication is that there are plenty of other PAs/NPs who would happily take the offer as stated... and I believe him. It took me a year to find the position I currently have, so I know the UT PA market is saturated.

 

Maybe in a few years I will see if I can relocate to an area that pays better, but right now I must stay in Utah, and I really need to get out of my current dead-end job ASAP. I think it would be unwise to turn this position down, especially since it is $6/hr more than I'm currently making, and there will be benefits when I become full-time (which I don't have now). However, instead of seeing this as great career-long position, in my mind it will be another stepping stone to something bigger and better down the road.

 

I'm going to think about it for a few hours... draft a reply... and accept. I think.

[rcdavis]

I don't want to splash too much cold water on this Thread and others like it, but in an economy where folks with 2 degrees are driving cabs or slinging burgers, or downright unemployed, when multiple careers are so saturated there are virtually no jobs available ( lawyers journalists, pharmacists, etc), $80,000 plus benefits, is actually pretty darn good money. A lot, actually.

 

I have watched the salary creep expand so that somehow new graduates now seem to expect $100,000 to start.

 

Somewhere along the way I think we have all forgotten that 80,000 a year, for a newly minted PA. With less tan a years experience, seems... Just. About..right.

 

Take the job.

 

You have done well, and handled this very professionally, but now is TGE time to realize that you are looking at more than 1000 a month raise from your old job, p,us benefits which will increase your effective salary by almost another 1500 per month.

 

Congratulations on your new job.

[SpikeDaCat]

rcdavis - thanks. I think you're absolutely right, and I will be taking the job.

 

I do very much appreciate everyone's advice and encouragement. I have learned a lot about contracts and negotiating through this experience, and that information is valuable to me. But I am indeed young in my career, and I know that this is just the beginning.

 

As rcdavis pointed out, the offer is still darn good money... much better than the $7/hr I made scrubbing the most disgusting urinals ever in a long-neglected grocery store bathroom, much better than the $8/hr I made trying to keep the housewares department organized at Target, and much better than the $9/hr I made answering angry calls and emails in a food storage company's customer service department. Yeah, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Literally. I haven't forgotten.

 

No, this is just fine for now, and I'm sure things will only get better from here. Thanks again everyone!

[Just Steve]

Thanks for sharing the journey with us up and coming non pa people. It's been educational

[sartort]

According to bls.gov, the mean hourly salary for PAs in Utah was 41.06/hour in May 2011. That doesn't take into account the type of practice or exact location, but taking the mean pay for the state you live in as a fairly new grad actually seems like a pretty good deal to me if it includes good benefits. I don't have experience with this yet to know much about it so thanks for sharing your experience. Hopefully you will like the position enough to feel comfortable with the decision if you choose to accept it.