Oversaturation of PA's = Decreased Value/Utility of PA???

[bjl12]

Hi folks,

 

I've got a year of pre-reqs left and am noticing a trend over the past 12 or so months. When I first began in the direction of PA school, very few of my peers/classmates had even heard of the profession let alone aspired to become one. However, much has been written about PA's in the media in the recent past (including a brief mention on NPR a few months ago). This increased attention on the profession seems to have created a PA frenzy. At least a fourth of my Chem class are students who've mentioned the possibility of PA school - contrast that to just nine months ago and people were asking me what a PA is. This change is concerning me because one of the contributing factors toward working to become a PA is... working as a PA. Oversaturation may lead to an overall decrease in employment/job security/reimbursement/etc.

 

Does anyone else have concerns that PA's may become oversaturated in the near future (3-5ish years?) and their utility may suffer as a consequence?

 

Thoughts/Opinions please. ***I know there are similar threads in other sections on the forum, but those threads are mildly old and these changes are something I've personally observed***

[bjl12]

So, if you were a pre-pa, would you at all be discouraged by the increase in volume of PA profession interest? I acknowledge that that the actual rate of graduating PA's may be unaffected due to a constant in accepted PA students. However, these changes can certainly be frightening from a pre-pa standpoint.

 

Is there any literature detailing the expansion/growth of the PA profession and related/predicted subsequent changes expectancies? E.G. reliable studies/analyses

 

From my understanding, the overall profession of PA is experiencing growth at such a rate that the turnover rate will not be equivalent to the point where retirees and new applicants cancel each other out. tl dr; too many PA's, not enough jobs. I have no literature to support this claim, it is merely something I've learned (or heard) through conversations with other fellow pre-pa's at school. I'm trying to determine the relevancy, if any.

[Just Steve]

well...if the Affordable Care Act gets to move forward, there will be a few million more people with health insurance looking for providers. Baby boomers still have another 15-20 years before they start to trickle off and with the specialty tests that PAs are creating, the lateral mobility is decreasing which in turn will create pockets of need.

 

Plus... are you really seriously thinking about changing your direction based on hype from the media? If you're old enough to remember the Y2K bug scare you would have been convinced that the world was seriously screwed..or if you pre date that, there was the Cold War hype that went on for decades...

 

If you are willing to relocate, you will always have work.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

"So my take on this is that the word is out that one can get into PA school fairly easy and make a good wage." Really? With the average PA school letting in less than 3% of ALL applicants and average GPA is a 3.5 or higher, I would not say that is "easy." The average GPA for optometry was 3.3 when I was an undergrad a couple years ago and that was from a statistic on the "pre-medicine" board showing all the optometry schools and the national average of GPA and other things to get into a program (my best friend went to optometry school so she shed some light for me also). :)

 

Can you show a citation where the average GPA is 3.5? not trying to argue, just would like a reference for myself.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=d/sp/i/243/pid/243

This website above is all the PAEAs Annual reports from 1996-97 to 2009-10

http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/135135

2009-2010: UG = cGPA 3.45 & sGPA 3.39, Grad = cGPA 3.52 & sGPA 3.57

Just hit ctrl + f then type gpa and hit enter 3 times and you will be about a page away from the table. I looked back through some of the years and in 1996 the cGPA was 3.3 and it didn’t seem like there was a sGPA, which I could find. It is very cool to look at the tables that show HCE from 1980’s to know, the peak average was around 53 months and now it is around 30 months. Also, thanks for being nice Oneal! I seriously appreciate it and truly respect you for letting me know that you were not trying to argue. That truly means a lot to me. Hope you enjoy the annual reports! :)

 

Thanks for the link.

 

No problem.

[bjl12]

Good call, that is true, but my point is that HCE is declining which makes me sad :(

 

I am still a Pre-PA and I can totally empathize with this. It frustrates me sometimes when I'm busting my behind in school and trying to meticulously calculate my next 6-9 months (EMT class/18 credits/Part-Time job [PT job = lucky me]) while some of my so-called competitors tell me they have a BA in education or communications (just recent examples) and they are taking the pre-reqs and "going to PA school."

 

I could be wrong, but I'm taking full on pre-med pre-reqs in addition to working as an EMT-B beginning next Fall (while I currently work with people with developmental disabilities [HSE] and have prior Psychiatric Hospital volunteer experience). I believe that a half-*** approach will likely yield a half-*** result, but at the same time I worry. I'm taking an extra 12-18 months to solidify my portfolio while some of my peers may not be, and they might even get into a goddamn program. What if I see one of these people down the line, when I'm a graduating PA and potentially can't find a job, and they're comfortably employed (after having taken the shortest/easiest route).

 

I still have a ways to go and can only control myself, but I just don't want to get screwed after having put a lot of time and energy into this project (and likely exponentially more in the future).

[bjl12]

I heard straight from an adcoms mouth that they can take anyone that is a good student and make them a good pa.

 

Somewhat discouraging

[rlh123]

I am a pre-pa, and have a pretty high GPA and some HCE, but am very young (which is my draw back to getting into PA school). I am in undergrad, and about a third of the bio majors are looking into PA school. Like bjl12 is saying I can attest to. Many of these students have 1. no clue what a PA does 2. just r in it for the $ and not going to med school 3. when I asked one of them why she wasn't taking General Chem (if she wanted to apply to PA school), she told me that u don't need chemistry for PA school. I convinced her to look online and what do you know, u need not only chem but also organic chem?!! PA school is not the easy way out and it is VERY hard to get into school, but undergrads these days, especially those who are my age (born 1992) just have no clue!

[BSN-PA]

Okay to ease your minds first, PA profession is only going to grow and more jobs will be available. This is due to several reason med school admissions are declining and most that end up attending med school do not go into primary practice, general medicine any longer because the money is not there, so in order to pay off those big med school loans med students are specializing. Now this helps 2 ways more jobs that the MDs no longer want to do and specialty MD's that will need PAs for their practice. Next with the age of the US population we will have a significant increase in demand in the next 10 years or so the job field will grow not only for PA's but all healthcare professions.....OLD people tend to get sick more then the young. Universal health care push will create more jobs these are just a few reasons not to worry about getting into healthcare. Now people on these forum wouldn't be on here if they weren't trying to expand their knowledge of PAs and PA school. Let me tell you for those that you come across that do not research about PA school and think that they will just breeze through, will be the same people that you will be saying sorry to hear you failed out the very first semester. I'd say to be successful research well, study hard, and don't take PA school lightly it will probably be the most rigorous 2 years of your life.

[Joelseff]

Okay to ease your minds first, PA profession is only going to grow and more jobs will be available. This is due to several reason med school admissions are declining and most that end up attending med school do not go into primary practice, general medicine any longer because the money is not there, so in order to pay off those big med school loans med students are specializing. Now this helps 2 ways more jobs that the MDs no longer want to do and specialty MD's that will need PAs for their practice. Next with the age of the US population we will have a significant increase in demand in the next 10 years or so the job field will grow not only for PA's but all healthcare professions.....OLD people tend to get sick more then the young. Universal health care push will create more jobs these are just a few reasons not to worry about getting into healthcare. Now people on these forum wouldn't be on here if they weren't trying to expand their knowledge of PAs and PA school. Let me tell you for those that you come across that do not research about PA school and think that they will just breeze through, will be the same people that you will be saying sorry to hear you failed out the very first semester. I'd say to be successful research well, study hard, and don't take PA school lightly it will probably be the most rigorous 2 years of your life.

 

How will there be more PC/FP jobs for PAs if there are fewer MD/DOs going into that field?

 

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

[Contrarian]

How will there be more PC/FP jobs for PAs if there are fewer MD/DOs going into that field?

Yep...

PAs go where there are Supervising Physicians...

If there are no SPs in BFE... there will be few to NO PAs there because we are tied at the hip by law/practice acts.

So the notion of PAs filling that role is pure fantasy ... and usually what PAs tell themselves while sucking their thumbs and rocking themselves to sleep at night.

 

Unless we somehow change the "supervision" rules, we will continue to have to follow the migration routes of the physicians and the NPs with fill that void.

 

Watch closely and pay attetion to the exponential increase in FAMILY and Geriatric nurse practitioners the nurses start cranking out to seize this area of practice. Which is why the AAFP is scared and fighting with them on the "medical home" issue. WATCH closely and PAY ATTENTION...!!!

 

Laws being changed to allow MD/DOs to "supervise" more PAs? BTW can a physician in another practice "supervise" a PA in a different practice? Would that be like a physician having privileges in 2-3 hospitals?

 

This may help a little for the physicians who are already out there doing the deed, but the limit on "supervision" has recently been changed in quite a few places. One problem is that this just INCREASES the liability of the usually "risk adverse" SP.

 

I.e. first they had to worry about being sued and losing their house for the actions/inactions of any one of the 3 PAs that they "supervise"... now they have 6 PAs to "supervise" and to worry about...

 

How many dedicated Physicians would be up for that... or better yet, what would their malpractice insurance carrier premium look like...????

 

Just a few thoughts...

[Joelseff]

Yep...

PAs go where there are Supervising Physicians...

If there are no SPs in BFE... there will be few to NO PAs there because we are tied at the hip by law/practice acts.

So the notion of PAs filling that role is pure fantasy ... and usually what PAs tell themselves while sucking their thumbs and rocking themselves to sleep at night.

 

Unless we somehow change the "supervision" rules, we will continue to have to follow the migration routes of the physicians and the NPs with fill that void.

 

Watch closely and pay attetion to the exponential increase in FAMILY and Geriatric nurse practitioners the nurses start cranking out to seize this area of practice. Which is why the AAFP is scared and fighting with them on the "medical home" issue. WATCH closely and PAY ATTENTION...!!!

 

 

 

This may help a little for the physicians who are already out there doing the deed, but the limit on "supervision" has recently been changed in quite a few places. One problem is that this just INCREASES the liability of the usually "risk adverse" SP.

 

I.e. first they had to worry about being sued and losing their house for the actions/inactions of any one of the 3 PAs that they "supervise"... now they have 6 PAs to "supervise" and to worry about...

 

How many dedicated Physicians would be up for that... or better yet, what would their malpractice insurance carrier premium look like...????

 

Just a few thoughts...

 

Exactly. We keep hearing how great FP/PC will be for PAs because of the doctor exodus but it is so dang illogical.... Even if they increase supervision limits, the liability plus the horrendous reimbursement for PC medicine may not make it attractive enough for a doc to pickup more than 4 PAs....I dunno, maybe with ACA coupled with the supposed massive influx of new pts, I could be wrong....I sure hope so. But then again there are the NPs with less supervision as C pointed out.

 

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

[rlh123]

Could it be in the future that there would be some way (like if a PA practiced in a specialty for X number of years or took extra training) that a PA could practice on their own, like an NP?

[Contrarian]

Could it be in the future that there would be some way (like if a PA practiced in a specialty for X number of years or took extra training) that a PA could practice on their own, like an NP?

 

Maybe... in the distant future, but not now or anytime soon.

 

The paternalistic bueracratic "Leaders" of the AAPA aren't interested in advancing the profession in that direction. They aren't interested in "name change," supervision versus collaboration or anything that remotely looks or smells like "independence" or to use your words, 'PAs that could practice on their own, like an NP'...

[BSN-PA]

NP's practicing on their own YES in same states but its different state to state. In Maryland they still need a doc on the books. The practice acts in Maryland are Identical for PAs and NP and actually the NPs have a bit more restrictions because they are trained in specialties and not as generalist. I know NC allows PA's to own Patient first type practices. When it comes down to it AAPA don't have their hands in the practices act's much at all and when they do it is still up to the Board of Physicians in that state to give the go ahead; really when it comes down to it PA, NPs and RNs practice acts are governed on a state to state basis. One of my professors from school is always at the state meetings and getting things pushed through in favor of the PAs in my state. Till the Fed government steps in and says these are the practice acts it will all depend on how much your colleges are willing to fight for your rights in your current state.

[Contrarian]

Maintaining the Status Quo, not "upsetting the apple cart," continuing "doing business as usual," propagating a innovative but outdated utilization plan that needs to change with the times.

 

Not interested in trying to atleast equalize usin the marketplace with our closest competitors for on the ground, patient care, clinical jobs.

 

Sort of like being 9 yrs old and having parents or grandparents who can't fathom why a kid would need a computer with access to internet service... and thinks its a "waste of money."

 

They can't wrap their minds around the fact that the landscape of the world has changed and any kid without this in this day and age today WILL be at a disadvantage for the forseeable future because computer literacy is required to function at a basic level in our society and it will only increase.

 

We just lost a Psych NP because we transitioned to EMR in Apr and she couldn't keep up. SHe was barely computer literate and was definately computer phobic. She was a competent Clinician but just about all of her charting was screwed up with missing mmedication changes, dosages, labs, or patient encounters and summaries and she became a liability to the clinic.

 

She was put on probation for a week... 3 times since MAY, forbidden to actually see patients and paid to sit in her offoce and complete/correct her charting. She just couldn't catch up. Their last accomodation was to get her a personal copy of Dragon Medical (since she got desperate and blamed her deficency on her wrist and fingers) and she still couldn't do it.

[Guest carolanimal]

Here's a common scenario that fits into what I'm talking about..... In fact, this recently came up in a management meeting I was in. When the economy sank and hit most sectors, a flood of highly motivated and accomplished individuals were either thrust into looking to make the jump towards what they saw as a more stable sector, or chose on their own accord to "leave the rat race". Those folks are now going to be "people persons" whether or not they are really well suited for it. You also have students that are similarly talented and motivated that used to graduate to a job geared towards their passions, and they are not finding philosophy or English literature factories to work in. They have good grades, and intellect, and are diligent and goal oriented... And now they want to have job in healthcare. PA schools are increasingly open to folks with non traditional background in ways that dental, medical, optometry, and physical therapy aren't... What with thier physics and ochem prereqs. So while you are right that PA schools have acceptance rates that would make getting into Harvard seem like signing up for community college by comparison, to your regular joe or Jolene who is looking at the prereqs, they usually see just a handful of courses like A and P, general bio, psych, biochem, stats etc. Then throw in a gre (which many folks in the non medical world are very familiar with, and it's no wonder that so many career changers and kids nearing graduation feel like thy can step up to the plate and take a stab at getting into PA school. I'm not saying its easy, but it certainly looks that way when you are retooling your career plan. Additionally, folks look at PA school and say "2 years and then I'm out making 6 figures?.... Let's do this!" 4 years of optometry school, dental school, or medical schoo, as well as the debt involved and the prectice setup, and PA school certainly looks "easier". I think the reality of what it takes to get into PA school doesn't get to a lot of folks, and it might not be an issue with many folks because their PA program is thrilled to have a former steelworker that can relate to people.

 

I see your point and it is a great one, I do see people seeing the hand full of courses as "easy" or "doable", but getting good grades and going beyond those minimal prereq. classes is just ONE part of many that create a good PA applicant. Yes, the GRE, volunteering, shadowing but more things just as research and I can tell you by experience that you have to have WAY more classes (than the "hand full") to do under/post grad research. How can one do orgo, biochem, physical, chemistry research with only having gen chem 1 & 2 (and even orgo 1), because my research professor did not let me step foot into a research lab with out getting at least B's in orgo 1 & 2 and upper level biochem. 1 (all with labs). Same way as having general bio/micro only...won't be getting into any "good" research labs, unless you want to put on your CV that you cleaned glassware...not only trying to get the get the adcom to let you into their program coming from a CPA, English teacher, etc background. Knowing the profession, being around/seeing PAs, working with PAs etc and not just having that drive of 2 years = $100K...that would surely coming out in one's emotions real quick...there has to be passion for the profession also (don't get me wrong that people like CPAs, English teachers do get into PA/NP/Med school etc), but it is a lot harder to make that transition into a provider. I totally see your point and again think your right, I just hope those people will understand that is takes more than the minimum and is not easy.

 

I am a pre-pa, and have a pretty high GPA and some HCE, but am very young (which is my draw back to getting into PA school). I am in undergrad, and about a third of the bio majors are looking into PA school. Like bjl12 is saying I can attest to. Many of these students have 1. no clue what a PA does 2. just r in it for the $ and not going to med school 3. when I asked one of them why she wasn't taking General Chem (if she wanted to apply to PA school), she told me that u don't need chemistry for PA school. I convinced her to look online and what do you know, u need not only chem but also organic chem?!! PA school is not the easy way out and it is VERY hard to get into school, but undergrads these days, especially those who are my age (born 1992) just have no clue!

 

Those sentences really stand out to me quite a bit. I have frequented this board for years and something I really found interesting was the general lack of participation from most posters. If you notice, the average poster has maybe at most 20 posts and they are mostly about who got an interview where/what are your stats/hey i got an interview at this place do you know somewhere to stay/etc. Compare this message board with student doctor network, where your typical poster is a pre-med/medical student/resident/attending and each have THOUSANDS of posts and have been on there for years. That board has thousands of messages/new threads a day discussing either medicine practices or admission stats or hard sciences concepts (most of the mneumonics I found for biochem have been on SDN) or different specialties and tons of personal topics and on and on and so forth. My favorite threads are the ones centered on procrastination/self sabotage topics or general anxiety of getting into this or that school or funny stories about interviews/clinicals or trying to find a MCAT buddy to study certain concepts with, etc. It is immediately obvious that making the personal decision to become a doctor requires alot of passion and endurance and I really respect my friends at work who are doctors. Message boards like SDN exist for the people who need to see that others are out there battling and struggling and trying to find their way towards become a good provider just like they are. (Hey that's why THIS message board exists. This message board has helped me tremendously in many different respects. ) SDN exists for the residents and attendings who need to discuss some egregious error from the standard of care or a resident they're concerned with or their concerns/annoyances with medicine in general. There's an intellectual element, but also a strong emotional element. A catharsis or a little relief from the proverbial pressure cooker of life exists when you get to purge all of these thoughts and concerns to people who know what you are talking about. The medicine subreddit on Reddit serves the same function I've noticed. And also the professional PA section of this forum.

 

But for the most part, that passion just doesn't exist among most pre-PA people. They only hop here for a couple of posts and then disappear, never to be seen or heard from again. They simply intend to get their pre-reqs, grab a few months of HCE, get into PA school and get their job making 70-80k per year and that's it. Now is it necessary for you to be passionate about becoming a PA in order to do a good job? I don't know. I'm not an ADCOM so I can't say that I am sure. But the differences in the discussion over medicine in general between this forum and SDN are glaringly obvious and I do wonder about what it means about the students being admitted or what it means for PA's in general.

[Contrarian]

Stay involved, and vote the stagnant ones out... and if that doesn't work, Start a NEW Trade organization that is receptive and responsive to its contituents.

 

There is no good reason why this profession should still only have 1 trade organization and 1 certifying organization.

The AAPA and the NCCPA both needs competition to stimulate responsiveness.

[bjl12]

But for the most part, that passion just doesn't exist among most pre-PA people. They only hop here for a couple of posts and then disappear, never to be seen or heard from again.

 

Perhaps, but the requirements for PA/Med are different. PA school requires excellent academic standing and boat-loads of Extracurricular/Healthcare experience. I mean, let's be real, there's only 24 hours in a day. Med focuses near solely on academics / MCAT and EC's help, but those grades / standardized test scores are the #1/2 requirements, realistically speaking.

 

PA's need to do well on their grades, prove they are interested in healthcare through prior healthcare experience, shadow a PA/doctor and/or volunteer at a hospital, and any/everything else one can think of - and all of these things need to happen... at the same time.

 

Time is not an available commodity for most pre-PAs, as it's typically a profession people pursue after working a first or second-tier healthcare job. The new fad of PA school is transitioning the identity of PAs, imho.

[bjl12]

And, yeah, all of these changes scare me. Nobody puts themselves through a professional/academic marathon for fun's sake; I'd like the comfort of knowing that my efforts will be rewarded upon crossing the finish line (assuming I'm in the top 10% or so).

[Guest carolanimal]

Perhaps, but the requirements for PA/Med are different. PA school requires excellent academic standing and boat-loads of Extracurricular/Healthcare experience. I mean, let's be real, there's only 24 hours in a day. Med focuses near solely on academics / MCAT and EC's help, but those grades / standardized test scores are the #1/2 requirements, realistically speaking.

 

PA's need to do well on their grades, prove they are interested in healthcare through prior healthcare experience, shadow a PA/doctor and/or volunteer at a hospital, and any/everything else one can think of - and all of these things need to happen... at the same time.

 

Time is not an available commodity for most pre-PAs, as it's typically a profession people pursue after working a first or second-tier healthcare job. The new fad of PA school is transitioning the identity of PAs, imho.

 

I completely agree. I'm a respiratory therapist applying this cycle. But most pre-PA's are applying for PA school as their first profession. MANY pre-PA's are at most CNA's and EMT-B's for a few months which don't give you as much exposure to health care as you would think. Some posters seem to be people applying completely on a whim.

 

Medical school is VERY hard to get into AND do well in. I think people who diminish the hard work of pre-meds/med school applicants/medical students/doctors are delusional about the lifestyle change and raw intellect/motivation it requires. Yet they DO have the time to post and discuss. Why not here? I think it says alot. There are some posters on here who post ALOT and I really appreciate it because I, at the end of the day, want to hear what other pre-PA's and PA's think. I'm more of a lurker than a poster on this board, but it's important to me to keep a pulse on PA-related things.

[bjl12]

Haha, yeah. I'm definitely more of a lurker myself as well; both here and at SDN, just like you.

 

I do not think getting into medical school is nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. It's very comparable to getting into PA school from what I read, although I have experience with neither. Yes top MD/DO programs may be reserved for top 25% who earn 4.0's and 33+'s on their MCAT, but large and wide Med/PA are very comparable as far as entrance competition. There's just considerable more emphasis on GPA and standardized tests for pre-physicians.

 

The PA program may in all likelihood experience an increase in entrance competition should this flocking trend toward PA programs continue.

 

The primary obstacle for most physicians, imo, is the timeline. Four years without a paycheck and then another 3-4 years for a medial paycheck. It's not until approximately 8 years after school began that they're earning the "big bucks," and life gets hectic around then because most people desire to start a family, get a house, pay off loans, vacation, etc.

 

PA school is so attractive because it requires less "timeline sacrifice" and still earns a fair-strong paycheck.

 

I would also greatly prefer if this board were more active and the community more involved. It would be beneficiary to all members I think.

[beancurd]

Yeah, I'm starting to get concerned too. I'll be applying for 2014 enrollment, but I definitely notice that the number of applicants is increasing, and at an astonishing rate too. For OHSU, the number of applicants increased from 902 in 2011 to 1702 in 2012, that's almost double of last year's! I guess the good news, from an applicant's pov, is that the average GPA is relatively stable throughout the years though.