Study Abroad Questions Part II

jmj11 · April 26, 2009

I’m interesting in creating a study abroad program for PA students that would be open to most PA programs. It would be highly structure, culture emersion and a quality medical practice experience in the developing world. The program would meet all the PAEA requirements for a six-week clinical rotation.

I am presently talking to people on the ground in several countries. I will need to pick one geographical place as the inaugural site. It is vital that we have a site that draws enough interest from PA students across the country to support it. So, of the areas listed, which one would be your top pick as a PA student, if you had the opportunity to take one clinical rotation abroad?

jmj11 · April 26, 2009

Thank you for voting. This is really important. Keep those votes coming!!

powderskier · April 26, 2009

I voted for Latin America. While I realize there will be many convincing arguments for China, Nepal, etc. IMHO, I feel that a rotation to a Spanish speaking provides would provide the "foreign" experience of practicing medicine abroad, while also preparing the future PA for medicine here. An understanding of Latin culture, some Spanish, and an insight into the living conditions, health concerns etc. of our neighbors to the south are things that are hit close to home.

While I think Nepal, China, Middle East would be eye-opening experiences, and could definitely be applicable to stateside healthcare, if you had to choose only one....I will be interested to see how a rotation that is open to multiple PA programs works out. I think it is a great idea. Buena Suerte!

jmj11 · April 27, 2009

It appears that Latin America votes have skyrocket since your (powderskier) comments. Now it could be that they saw things from your perspective before your comments and what you posted had no influence. But in case your comments did have influence, let me play devil's advocate and turn it on its head a bit.

While a Latin American experience could prepare you better for working with American-Latinos (in your regular job in the U.S.) at the same time, in the future there would be far more opportunities to work with a Spanish speaking population here in the states. There are also many more opportunities to take short-term medical trips to Latin American countries.

I attended the PAs for Global Health conference. From among the attendees, I suspect that 90% of their "overseas experiences" have been in Latin America, with the second (say 8%) were Africa.

The other choices would be more exotic, and possibly, a "once in a lifetime" experience. The cost for a six week structured rotation in Nepal (for example) would only be about $500-$700 more (for transportation), but that's not much difference considering the whole six week experience.

jeriann13 · April 27, 2009

i visited Singapore recently... and based on a some cursory internet/newspaper job ads, it seems there are no PA positions there... and MD salaries are ridiculously low... I saw one MD job posting offering $2K sing dollars... subtract a third to equate to US dollars. eeek! what is your knowledge/experience about PA opportunities in southeast asia? any possibility of at least doing a rotation in this country or nearby? i like that English is the primary language, but still have the opportunity to learn several other languages spoken by natives.

jmj11 · April 27, 2009

i visited Singapore recently... and based on a some cursory internet/newspaper job ads, it seems there are no PA positions there... and MD salaries are ridiculously low... I saw one MD job posting offering $2K sing dollars... subtract a third to equate to US dollars. eeek! what is your knowledge/experience about PA opportunities in southeast asia? any possibility of at least doing a rotation in this country or nearby? i like that English is the primary language, but still have the opportunity to learn several other languages spoken by natives.

Since Singapore is a developed country (some say more developed than the US:o) then there is no need for PAs (as you've suggested via your newspaper search) I know of service-orientated groups have taken PAs to Thiland and Cambodia, but those were volunteer situations. I doubt if you will find any paid positions in that part of the world for PAs except for Australia (which you know is new) and as a staff with the Peace Corp or U.S. Embassies.

Prospective PA · April 27, 2009

Mike,

Just my opinion here....

I think you are on to a fantastic opportunity, wish it were available within the next 24 months for my school so I could do it!

I think the options are all great but I think the foremost things should be the safety of the students and the possibility of actually setting it all up in a friendly environment. Meaning that the "first, inaugural" site should be some place that you are absolutely positive that the protocol will be followed and the PA Students accepted warmly. Ease of setup for the organizers (you and whomever is working with you) and any evaluators that will need to visit the site on your behalf...etc...It is nice to gauge the desire of the students, but I truly believe that any student wanting to gain such a fantastic opportunity for the experience will go to any of the places...."set it up, they will go"

Good luck and keep us informed!

jmj11 · April 27, 2009

Prospective PA,

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>This is a good question, and a possible survey in itself. How concerned are PA students for safety? I know that is one of the biggest obstacles for PA programs allowing their students to go

<style>  </style> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CMICHAE%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>I know that in all those situations, by far the most dangerous things I’ve ever done was ride in a truck in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Pakistan</st1:country-region> on mountainous roads and in a Taxi in<st1:city w:st="on"><st1> Cairo</st1></st1:city> traffic.

Prospective PA · April 27, 2009

That was really my point...students probably consider safety minimal unless they have children! LOL but the programs??? I know in discussion with sites for my program...it must be within 75 miles of the school so that the clinical direct is able to "show up" and observe...I just can't see them ever approving it unfortunately. Maybe I am wrong though, I mean what do I know as a soon to be matriculating student! everyone else on here is much more knowledgeable than I am.

I personally would love this!

What about taking the programs out of the equation and making it a "post grad mini international residency" type thing? maybe this could fill the gap between graduating and getting the first real job. or maybe it wouldn't work because of Sallie Mae requiring payments made soon after graduating....maybe between getting the job and getting credentialed...just a few thoughts....

bradtPA · April 27, 2009

Mike,

Since most students these days are female, and middle eastern values towrds females are not the best, what do you think should be done with that? Will there be any mechanism to assure they will be allowed to train?

Brad

jmj11 · April 27, 2009

Mike,

Since most students these days are female, and middle eastern values towrds females are not the best, what do you think should be done with that? Will there be any mechanism to assure they will be allowed to train?

Brad

Egypt, Jordan and Oman have plenty of female MDs. Actually they have a high demand for them. Now there could be a problem where some men would not want a female to exam them, but the women will prefer them. These countries are far less limited than say Saudi when it comes to what women can do.

In Oman, (a long time ago) I was not allowed to do pelvics or even look under the veil of a woman unless it was a complete emergency. I had a RN who did my hands on exams on women. Even back then we had a female PA student who got to do a lot, even worked in the men's clinic, but she probably didn't see too many men naked.

bradtPA · April 27, 2009

I was just wondering, having been for extended periods in Kuwait and Saudi, and knew Omanis had a similar bias. In Saudi our military women were not allowed to drive, and they had to wear a hat in uniform at all times. The Turks are completely different. The year I spent in Turkey was nice, and women could do anything....

pilot1974 · April 28, 2009

I like the choices but how about the UK, New Zealand, Australia or Canada where they are starting to add PA programs? What about an exchange program? I think it would be nice to experience the NHS or other national health care system.

jmj11 · April 28, 2009

I like the choices but how about the UK, New Zealand, Australia or Canada where they are starting to add PA programs? What about an exchange program? I think it would be nice to experience the NHS or other national health care system.

I think that's a good idea for later. This first phase is about PAs in humanitarian roles in the developing world. If successful then, working with the PAs who have set up our roles in UK, Canada, Australia etc. would be a possibility . . . to see if we could work in clinical rotations for the curious PA student.

Metallicat · April 28, 2009

I would be in favor of the Philippines. In fact, after I get some time under my belt as a PA-C I would love to help get one going in the Philippines. Of course I'm a little biased having lived there for 2 years...

Jectex · May 9, 2009

When would you be able to study abroad during your time in the PA program? Would it be a specific clincial rotation that you would take? Also, do you think that most schools would be open to letting their students study abroad? It sounds great, but I just has some questions about it

jmj11 · May 10, 2009

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> It would be during the clinical year and probably towards the end (after you've had some experience under your belt). Different programs have different clinical schedules. All have mandatory basics, for example, family practice, surgery, ER, Psych, Ob/Gyn plus electives. An overseas rotation would work as an elective or, if the program is open minded, allow it to account for one of the basic rotations.

Are most schools open? I've spent a lot of time in research on this and I do not have definite figures. I can tell you that about 5-6 schools have their own oversea sites. The most developed one is U of Utah in<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1> Thailand</st1></st1:country-region>. They are also accepting students from other programs.

In last count (I think in 2007) about 30 (67 sites but some schools had multiple sites) programs had an "active" overseas clinical program. What that means for most, is that will "allow" their students to create their own overseas rotations. Some programs are opposed to students going overseas (they have an anal-retention issue about liability or loosing control of their students).

I've been working on sites in the Middle East and <st1><st1:country-region w:st="on">Nepal</st1:country-region></st1>. I'm about ready to give up on the<st1> Middle East</st1>. I have two potentials on the back burner that I have not completely given up on, one in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Jordan</st1:country-region> and in<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1> Morocco</st1></st1:country-region>. I really wanted to create one in<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1> Egypt</st1></st1:country-region> as that is where I lived (and I use to speak Arabic . . . which is rusty). However, (and it is too complicated to explain here) doesn’t look like it is going to work.<o></o>

Right now I have some good possibilities in<st1> <st1:country-region w:st="on">Nepal</st1:country-region></st1> (if the Maoist rebels behave themselves). It could be really exciting with some medical treks to hidden valleys where there is virtually no care. I will give<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1> Nepal</st1></st1:country-region> a 50:50 chance, taking the first students in 2010.<o></o>

I have recently gotten to know Donna DeGarcia, PA-C. She is a year or so ahead of this than me. Her focus is Latin American, mainly <st1:country-region w:st="on">Panama</st1:country-region> but branching out to other countries like <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Nicaragua</st1></st1:country-region>. Here is her website: http://panamaglobalconnections.com/ I will not be working on sites in<st1> Latin America</st1> because Donna has that covered.<o></o>

Mike

maxinrelaxin007 · May 26, 2009

I chose Nepal as the one I'd most like to do, but Latin America would gain a lot of interest for the same reasons as powder mentioned and the price of a plane ticket would be much less. Our school has a site in Tanzania that has had a lot of good experiences... it just costs too much for me.

July 16, 2009

Egypt!!

i speak some arabic and i would love to learn more from born speakers

KBesaw · October 13, 2009

Wow... as a pre-PA student, this excites me more than anything! Doing a PA program abroad would be a dream come true. I'm applying next year and knowing which schools have programs abroad would definitely influence my decision! Good luck with everything!

jmj11 · October 13, 2009

I'm taking my first student to Nepal a week from tomorrow. But this has been an incredible uphill task (it would take a book to explain). So, unless I see a bright light on the road to Kathmandu, I'm not sure I will try to set up a permanent site.

Contrarian · October 19, 2009

</ST1>I'm about ready to give up on the<ST1> Middle East</ST1>. I have two potentials on the back burner that I have not completely given up on, one in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Jordan</st1:country-region> and in<st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1> Morocco</ST1></st1:country-region>. I really wanted to create one in<st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1> Egypt</ST1></st1:country-region> as that is where I lived (and I use to speak Arabic . . . which is rusty). However, (and it is too complicated to explain here) doesn’t look like it is going to work.<O></O>

Mike

Mike,

Try Sudan. Especially South Sudan...

They are Arabi Speakers... :cool:

Arabi is their national language, then Dinka, then Swahilli in the south.

They also have a rudementary medical community and you may be able to get some help from

AMRef South Sudan with setting up clinical rotations...

Try here if you want to immerse yourself in Arabi...

Also checkout their version of a PA... "Clinical Officers"

Wiki definition of Clinical Officer

A decent study on international "Mid-level" utilization here...

Indian Association of Physician Assistants

macadamia813 · December 15, 2009

I have recently gotten to know Donna DeGarcia, PA-C. She is a year or so ahead of this than me. Her focus is Latin American, mainly <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:smarttagtype class=inlineimg title=Embarrassment border="0" alt="" smilieid="3" redface.gif="" smilies="" images="" forums="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" http:="" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<ST1>Nicaragua</ST1></st1:country-region>. Here is her website: http://panamaglobalconnections.com/ I will not be working on sites in<ST1> Latin America</ST1> because Donna has that covered.<O></O>

Mike

Hi jmj11

Do you know whether the medical experience itself is well-rounded at these sites or is it more about learning the language/culture? I've contacted another program where they've told me I will be immersed in the language, but would only observe my preceptor. I can contact Ms DeGarcia if that is easier. I really appreciate your help.

MP

xscpx · December 27, 2009

Prospective PA,

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>This is a good question, and a possible survey in itself. How concerned are PA students for safety? I know that is one of the biggest obstacles for PA programs allowing their students to go

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CMICHAE%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> For me it is relative. I mean, I was in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Pakistan</st1></st1:country-region> twenty some years ago (as a PA student) during a military coup and it was a crazy time and I didn’t think I could get out. I lived in the Middle East for a couple of years and have visited places like <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Gaza</st1></st1:city>. Three years ago (me in white pictured below with my local friends) I was in Taliban country in <st1><st1:country-region w:st="on">Pakistan</st1:country-region></st1> and riots broke out over both the Danish cartoons and president Bush’s visit.

<style>  </style> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CMICHAE%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>I know that in all those situations, by far the most dangerous things I’ve ever done was ride in a truck in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Pakistan</st1:country-region> on mountainous roads and in a Taxi in<st1:city w:st="on"><st1> Cairo</st1></st1:city> traffic.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CMICHAE%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.physicianassistantforum.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> But I do want to be sensitive to perspective student fears. So do you think that fear of danger is a big deal for students? I had people suggest to me <st1:city w:st="on">Baghdad</st1:city><st1:city w:st="on"><st1> or Kabul</st1></st1:city> as possible sites and I said no way.

You also need to consider your gender. I suspect that a woman in that same situation would have had a very different experience. The most important thing you need to do while developing this program is learn about and respect the ways of life in the country you choose. You need to keep in mind the attitude towards Americans as well. Just because we have certain views doesn't mean they are shared universally.

As a woman, I can honestly tell you I would not put myself in a predicament to go to a country that I felt could result in a dangerous situation. Safety is a major concern. I would never go to any country (for this program) in which women are looked at as differently as they are in a country like Pakistan. Not having a male escort and my apparel could be very offensive to some patients, not to mention many may not even see me. I also would not go to a place like Iraq where they are currently involved in a major war. I would love to take part in an opportunity like this, but not at my own personal risk. I have a husband and family to think of. Just remember there is a lot involved here and a lot at stake. No school is going to sanction a program in which there was any doubt as to guaranteeing the safety of all participates.

China is a wonderful idea and has been creating health programs with many US institutions. My program (global health) actually created a program to bring students for 3 weeks to China this summer. It is the first time this is being offered and it is for public health. China has a level of safety that many countries do not and is also very interested in establishing health programs with the US.

tainolee · February 20, 2011

I'd go to China! Considering most of the world's population is there! I think the opportunity in China to learn some Mandarin or Catanese would be extremely beneficial as well as to visit the neighboring countries would be great as well! It would expose me to more of their ancient and homeopathic practices!

Study Abroad Questions Part II

Where would you like to study abroad? 125 members have voted

1. Where would you like to study abroad?

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Where would you like to study abroad?
125 members have voted