docpowers Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 Chiropractic premise has not changed. A few chiropractors have. Respiratory Therapist previously. I see the positive to the natural and medical fields. Don't plan on completely leaving chiro field. Will do after hours clinic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archerry Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 When I said yours is an old model, I didn't mean chiropractic adjustments don't work. I meant the understanding of the mechanism behind why/how they work is where your model is outdated. Adjustments work; but they don't work by unpinching nerves being squeezed upon by a bone out of place (the old 'garden hose' theory). I second this wholeheartedly. With our current understanding of neurophysiology and functional biomechanics this "bone out of place" explanation was supplanted many, many years ago. In fact, when I went to chiropractic college 16 years ago, this "model" was mainly discussed in a historical context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 7, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 7, 2011 Chiropractic premise has not changed. A few chiropractors have. Respiratory Therapist previously. I see the positive to the natural and medical fields. Don't plan on completely leaving chiro field. Will do after hours clinic. strange - even your own field DC's are not in agreement with you - they are already PA's and have likely trained with a more EBM model (allopathic v chiro) you are only one step removed from new grad and all ready want to leave the field, but then you want to work part time as a chiro nothing personal but I believe you need to spend more time on self reflection and figuring out why you are not content with chiro and spend less time focusing on the next degree (and this is coming from someone with 4 degrees!) You probably would do well in PA school but I am unconvinced you have the dedication and drive and follow through to excel as a practicing PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docpowers Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Apparently you haven't listened very well to my posts. I like chiro very much as is evident in my desire to continue at least part time. But as I said earlier, I can see where I can benefit my patients also as a PA. I think the medical field and chiro will make me a better clinician. I want to be the best I can be for my patients. And that does not have to be in medicine alone. People are looking for answers that the medical field doesn't seem to have alone. That's why we need to work together. We have beaten a dead horse long enough. We will never completely agree but let's agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I have to agree with docpowers on a lot of what he/she says. The crap they are putting in our food is unbelievable!!!! I was just in the jungles of Belize where they served us a meal. There was a chicken breast on my plate and I swear it was the smallest I've ever seen. The reason is they don't inject hormones in their chickens like we do. It makes the chickens fat, we eat them and we get fat. I had a Coke there and I noticed it tasted very different. No HFCS!!!! Believe it or not it tasted very different from ours. Sugar was in it and not very much. We are subsidizing our corn producers and that's why corn sweetener is added to everything. Oh, BTW, you won't be finding High Fructose Corn Syrup on labels anymore they are changing the name to corn sugar...but it's the same garbage! Sorry I didn't mean to highjack this thread...just sounding off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiaroscuro27 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Sound off, marilynpac!!! This is important stuff that we all need to research and learn about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I can tell you that Coke tasted very different. I had a sinus h/a and a doc told me the best tx for a sinus h/a is ASA and coke or black coffee. It works for me everytime. I don't drink soft drinks b/c of the sickly sweet taste, but that I would drink. I have to agree our food supply is just too tainted. This year I'm going organic as much as possible, esp meats. There is just too much junk like hormones, antibiotics, preservatives and God know what else. Our food is no longer food, it's chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 7, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 7, 2011 I have to agree with docpowers on a lot of what he/she says. The crap they are putting in our food is unbelievable!!!! I was just in the jungles of Belize where they served us a meal. There was a chicken breast on my plate and I swear it was the smallest I've ever seen. The reason is they don't inject hormones in their chickens like we do. It makes the chickens fat, we eat them and we get fat. I had a Coke there and I noticed it tasted very different. No HFCS!!!! Believe it or not it tasted very different from ours. Sugar was in it and not very much. We are subsidizing our corn producers and that's why corn sweetener is added to everything. Oh, BTW, you won't be finding High Fructose Corn Syrup on labels anymore they are changing the name to corn sugar...but it's the same garbage! Sorry I didn't mean to highjack this thread...just sounding off. 100% AGREEMENT!! Food in honduras tastes so much better as it is real food and not adultrated with HFCS HFCS - fastest burn sugar - cheapest sugar - supports corn demands - maybe as bad for us as partially hydrogenated and to follow up on docpowers - if you love chiro so much why are you leaving it? And the idea of crossing lines to be a PA/Chiro so that you can play MD/Chiro is personally scary to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docpowers Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 I completely agree marilynpac. I have a father-in-law who has Alzheimers and when he was diagnosed they didn't find hardly anything else organically wrong with him. I've had friends that have dementia. I know I have a lot more to learn about medicine but 30 years ago we would hear of someone every now and then with dementia. But today it is rampant. Over 27 years ago when I was training for Respiratory Therapist, I was told that we are killing ourselves with chemicals in food and the environment. I read an article where autopsies were performed on Alzheimers patients and they all had a excess amount of aluminum in their brain. Aluminum is used in alot of foods as a binding agent. I'm sure there may be a combination of causes but it seems that chemicals has to be a big part of it. And it looks like our FDA is not going to protect us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 WHAT!!! docpowers you're saying our gov isn't going to protect us!!!!! I wish you could see my shocked face....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 30 years ago, people didnt live long enough to get dimentia, and when they did, they were relegated to facilities where they didnt last very long after they developed it. back then folks went to chiropractors instead of doctors and werent treated correctly. So there were no MDs 30 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I completely agree marilynpac. I have a father-in-law who has Alzheimers and when he was diagnosed they didn't find hardly anything else organically wrong with him. I've had friends that have dementia. I know I have a lot more to learn about medicine but 30 years ago we would hear of someone every now and then with dementia. But today it is rampant. Over 27 years ago when I was training for Respiratory Therapist, I was told that we are killing ourselves with chemicals in food and the environment. I read an article where autopsies were performed on Alzheimers patients and they all had a excess amount of aluminum in their brain. Aluminum is used in alot of foods as a binding agent. I'm sure there may be a combination of causes but it seems that chemicals has to be a big part of it. And it looks like our FDA is not going to protect us. I think this is more of an issue with how dementia was diagnosed...remember back then it was often called senility and the dx was not captured. Not sure we can say the true incidence is on the rise vs. how we define and measure it. Sure there are environmental factors but that probably should be tempered by the fact that we have a more organized system of diagnosis now....which often can go too far in the other direction (depression, ADHD, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docpowers Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 You have just about enough knowledge about chiropractic to be stupid. And I was talking about dementia and Alzheimers, and who said anything about a chiropractor seeing them. You just want to argue. I'll not waste my time with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewtonsApple Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 While I am not pro chiropractor to say the least, there is something to be said for the placebo effect. Obviously you should intervene if you see there is damage being done or a specific risk for any treatment. However, if there is no harm (an I would look hard for any) and they "feel" better I can be tolerant of that which improves quality of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 im pretty well immersed in biological science, and yet you call me stupid because chiropractic is somehow beyond my understanding? your assertion says more about chiropractic than it does about my knowlege of it, doesnt it? if your profession's techniques stood on a solid foundation, it should be simple for someone like me to comprehend it. theres not much to argue here. i hit the nail on the head. I don't wish to get involved in this spat, and I'm not taking sides. But I must ask PAMAC why s/he feels chiropractic is a "placebo profession" and why s/he feels the mechanism behind spinal manipulation has no biological basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypa Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 two chiropractors dont agree on the bedrock of thier profession... And there en-lies why the profession has such a hard time moving forward and "proving" things scientifically. Why one chiro on 1 corner says one thing and the one across town says another. The very frustrating thing about the profession and why I believe it is in for a world of hurt once health care reform settles in, in whatever way it does. not gonna be fun to be reimbursed for essentially 1 code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypa Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 physical therapy is more appropriate in all situations than a chiropractor would ever hope to be. ooooh, you had me for a bit on this thread ;), but this statement is a bit ridiculous. ALL situations is a strong word....don't be like the old timers of the medical profession and be stead-fast in your own opinions to say to a patient of yours: physical therapy is more appropriate in all situations than seeing a chiropractor would ever be. You are not giving your patient options or directing them in a responsible way with a statement like that. No responsible P.T. is gonna put someone with an acute back (all situations) thru stretches and exercises Is physical therapy more appropriate for certain conditions over medication or over chiropractic.....sure. But there are situations where medicine or chiropractic is more appropriate than physical therapy. It's about educating your patients on the most effective treatments available for a given condition. Insurance companies would not reimburse chiropractors if it was truly a PLACEBO treatment.... but I will respect your opinion and view, just don't take opinion and preach it as fact to someone with back pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 in some cases there may not be any harm, but there certainly is a cost in terms of dollars, and in terms of the general morality of treating a patient using a plecebo method. to use plecebos in a study situation is a matter of trying to determine efficacy, but to use it as a course of treatment shouldnt be an arguement in favor of seeing a chiropractor. physical therapy is more appropriate in all situations than a chiropractor would ever hope to be. I'll ask you again: Why do you say that chiropractic is a "placebo profession"? It sounds as though you are saying that any benefits gained at the hands of a chiropractor are purely placebo and nothing else. Am I reading you correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 i already explained why the profession is based on the placebo effect. its pretty clear. there might be a biological basis for spinal manipulation, but theres a weak amount of evidence that chiropractors have mastered it. heres a quick rundown using some simple logic... do i screw up my bodies system when i bend over to pick up my paper in the morning? after all, my spine is all of a sudden misaligned.... shouldnt all sorts of diffuse medical issues be starting the moment my spine moves in a strange way? arent subluxations and misalignments taking place. im leaning over my computer right now in a slightly unnatural position... do any potential problems go away when i lean back? its just wacked to think that you guys make an impact on a customer, and then watch them go out to a car and have all the work you did get thrown off the moment the person moves their spine again... it will be fine with me when there are no billing code available for chiropractic services. if there is knowlege out there that i pick up that shows that there is a place for chiropractic care, and if it applies to a patient, that would be something that i would need to pass along... or else i would be remis. accupuncture might go right along with that. it would be difficult to do unless the mechanisms could be explained. accupuncture rudypa? would you want to try to fit that into your consults? and what if insurance reimbursement was more a matter of the politics involved than efficacy? Friend, I hesitate to tell you that your understanding of this issue is rudimentary at best, as evidenced by your 'bending over' illustration above. And when you say "if there is knowledge out there", I'll tell you now that there is but you are simply unaware of it, probably because you've never looked. Please don't project your lack of awareness as fact, and please think twice about relaying faulty information to your future patients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 you are right that i dont see a broad benefit beyond a placebo effect to most of what chiropractors do. i guesse i shouldnt say that there isnt some kind of theraputic value that could be akin to massage. ive just not seen evidence of efficacy beyond subjective support. if there was a certainty within the chiropractic community ragarding thier work, you would see your profession coming up with the funds to demonstrate it and put the issue to rest.... it would be a boon to both patients and chiropractors alike. to date we have yet to see that kind of approach. small studies here and there, and more black box explanations of the hows and why's of what chiropractors do. i have heard that there could be benefit in terms of dealing with low back pain, but how many of you limit your practices to that? the real issues i take with the profession is the lack of continuity and reproducability. im going to be more excited about a treatment regimen that has consistent results and a proven mechanism of action. you can rest assured that if i ever need to reach into my quiver for an arrow to shoot into the dark when dealing with a patients condition, chiropractic manipulation will be right there along with alternative medicine and accupuncture. So can I assume your position is that chiropractic lacks evidence? That is, of course, evidence beyond what you "have heard" regarding low back pain? Does "having heard" pass for being knowledgable in a particular area? And you've mentioned PT. I, too, feel that PT is a valuable profession. But what if there is evidence that chiropractic care is superior to PT in some situations? Would you then have to at least consider changing your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 so now you are going to try to poison the well by asking if my "having heard" something passes for being knowlegable in a specific area... as if i operate entirely in that fashion? just admit you guys operate in the alternative medicine field. im not the one that clashed with a peer over your theories. Perhaps you don't operate entirely in that fashion, but you appear to be operating in that fashion as it relates to our current discussion. Care to take a stab at my questions, or are we done here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I don't know where I would be today w/o my Chiro. I had to turn to him when all the medical docs told me that there was nothing more that could be done. While studying for the panre I bumped my knee and didn't think anything of it until I knelt down later and could put no weight bearing on that knee. I suffered with it for months thinking it would just "go away"....it didn't. At the same time I had carpel tunnel so bad I finally went to an Ortho but since my emgs were neg I was told surg wasn't for me. I still had almost no use of my left arm/hand. Out of desperation I made an appt with my Chiro who evaluated my arm and said I definitely did have carpel tunnel stage 4....he then did cold laser therapy, now you would never know I had a problem at all. While I was being treated I happened to mention my knee, he examined me and told me my knee was "out of alignment". He readjusted my knee and that night I was putting full weight bearing on that knee...something I hadn't done in months. I haven't had a problem with the knee or the hand since. So you can see why disagree with the naysayers on this...I'm living breathing proof, and I went in thinking he could just help with the pain, not aleviate the problem. Like I said, I don't know where I would be w/o my Chiro...everyone else gave up on me!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docpowers Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Finally, there are people, rudypa and discogenic that are rationally thinking as a health professional should. That is, "what is best for my patient". This is the way I want to analyze a patients situation. I know you may not totally agree with chiropractic, but at least you don't completely trash it. I mean they wouldn't give a license if it was not a viable profession. If I don't get results in about 2 weeks, I send them to a specialist. I like it when a patient has been examined by a medical doctor or referred by one and didn't find anything. That may rule out medical and then I can exam them to see if I can help. This is what I have been saying all along, to work together. As far as the chiropractic profession in Obama care is concerned, You may be right. But at least we were included in the language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 what questions are you asking that i havent already covered? do i have an open mind? sure i do. but can you point out some mechanisms to me that would fall in line with current medical knowlege? Why do you say chiropractic is a "placebo profession"? Do you believe that chiropractic care lacks evidence? If evidence were to exist that shows chiropractic care to be more effective than PT in certain situations, would you be willing to at least consider changing your position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Oh, I forgot to mention my Chiro has found cancer on patients that were sent to him by medical docs that told the patients that their problem was all in their heads. Yep, three times he's found lung cancer on patients b/c before he manipulates he takes XRs to make sure there are no hairline fxs...since he doesn't have xr vision...it avoids a nasty lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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