Rotation Expectations of Students Vs Preceptor

[SHU-CH]

26 minutes ago, PA-SGuy said:

as a current student on rotations, one thing i always asked the first day: "is there anything i should work on or something i should be doing that I did not do today" presentation, soap note style etc. This shows you're interested in learning/improving from day 1 and helps you build your skills.

This is the key. It's all attitude. Come early, stay late and be an active participant in your education. PA school seems like its long, but it really isn't.

When I was precepting, every once in a while I would get a student that was obviously not the top of the class. If they were interested in working hard I would bend over backwards to help them. Conversely, I had a few brainiacs that liked to stand around with their hands in their pockets. They spent a lot of time standing in the corner (almost indisinguishable from a ficus tree).

High performing students are reflective. They know course/rotation objectives and know where they stand with strengths and weakness. At the end of the day they assess what went well and what needs work tomorrow (and they ask for preceptor input on this). Superstar students on rotation also constantly ask themselves what they can do to make their preceptor's life easier. They anticipate needs instead of just reacting to them. 

 

[SedRate]

On 5/2/2018 at 8:47 PM, ak004 said:

I start rotations in a few weeks. I hope to meet my preceptors standards, but more importantly, if I’m not being the kind of student I should be, or need to work on things or do things differently, I hope my preceptor sits me down and tells me to shape up! I want to be a good student, a good PA, and I want to represent my program well. It’s hard to know you’re doing something wrong if someone doesn’t tell you.
Good luck with the students OP. I hope you don’t take them as being representative of the entire next generation of new PAs/younger PAs

Good luck! It's an exciting time to start putting your knowledge to use. Preceptors don't take students so they can be demeaning and get free labor, although I'm sure sometimes it might feel like it. The vast majority of us take students to give back, help mentor the next gen of PAs, and keep ourselves on our toes. But understand that we are sharing our time, practice, knowledge, and patients with you, which is something that needs to be respected. 

1. Be ready to work hard.

2. Show up early.

3. Stay late.

4. Ask if someone needs help (MAs, nurses, therapists, and others can be very knowledgeable and help teach you things as well).

5. If you see something you aren't familiar with, look it up that night if possible.

6. If a preceptor asks you a question that you don't know the answer to, tell them you'll look it up and get back to them. If you've never seen, performed, or are comfortable performing a procedure that you are asked to do, politely explain and request to see the first and that you'd like to then do the next. But try to be prepared so you can take any opportunity you get. After all, that opportunity may never come back around. 

7. Be polite, professional and objective. Avoid taking criticism personally. Dress appropriately.

8. Bring snacks, notepad, notes, and resources to look at if needed or during downtime.

9. Learn your preceptor's style. That way you can understand where they're coming from and you both can get the most out of the rotation. 

10. If you aren't learning or understanding something, write it down and when it's a good time, ask if you can have a few minutes of their time to discuss.

11. Be careful when discussing preceptors and rotations with other students. Avoid letting their experience and opinion frame yours. 

12. Work on your networking. You never know when a preceptor will call you in the future and ask for a job. (I had three job offers from preceptors while I was a student and I've had two call me since graduation.)

13. Contact your program if you aren't getting the experience you need, e.g., two other students on same rotation so census is low, wrong patient population (e.g., all gyn pts and no ob), rotation site professionalism concerns, etc. 

[plant biologist]

I graduated in 2013. During my rotations there was a ton of additional work given by the program not directly related to the rotation. The most time consuming task was logging all off our patient encounters and procedures for the day. I used to spend a couple of hours each evening just doing that. It took a big chunk of my study time. In my program there was a lot of what I considered to busy work and experimental courses that we're someone's PhD project. 

[paramedico]

Ok kids. 

Nuts and bolts stuff here. Just be yourself. Don’t kiss my ass. Have a fundamental understanding of the rotation you're entering and the skills and clinical knowledge you should gain from it. There are stupid questions (talking super basic stuff we all should know). Stupid questions show me you’re not prepared. I don’t care how smart you think you are. Do not sit on your ass. EVER!! There is always something to do and something to learn (you’re dropping big dough for this). Respect the nurses!! Just be cool. We like cool people. We HIRE cool people. I dig teaching. It’s fun to pay it forward but it is a huge pain in the ass and slows us down. So if we seem aloof at times, don’t get butt hurt, we’re just working. No one should make you feel stupid. Research interesting things pertinent to what I’m teaching you. Teach me something. Never forget to pay it forward when your time comes. Have fun with this gig!!

[camoman1234]

13 minutes ago, paramedico said:

Ok kids. 

Nuts and bolts stuff here. Just be yourself. Don’t kiss my ass. Have a fundamental understanding of the rotation your entering and the skills and clinical knowledge you should gain from it. There are stupid questions. I don’t care how smart you think you are. Do not sit on your ass. EVER!! There is always something to do and something to learn (you’re dropping big dough for this). Just be cool. We like cool people. We HIRE cool people.i dig teaching. It’s fun to pay it forward but it is a huge pain in the ass and slows us down. So if we seem aloof at times. Don’t get butt hurt. We’re just working. No one should make you feel stupid. Research interesting things pertinent to what I’m teaching you. Teach me something. Never forget to pay it forward when your time comes. Have fun with this gig!!

Seriously? I disagree with your comment "There are stupid questions" as this is NOT true. Please give me an example of this? What if you had a dietitian that worked for 10 years then went to PA school and that dietitian asked you how to plug in a flow meter or how do you open fluids from an IV for example? I mean that is really simple once you learn it, but if you literally have never worked in those type of environments or even worked in a hospital setting how would you know how to do those simple task? "Cool" people to me are usually self absorbed (not all), but they think their shit do not stink and we had a few in our class and most people did not talk with them or even wanted to be around them. Their vibe was foul and cool to me is on the VERY bottom of the list on hiring someone...good lord not sure if you hire people, but when I hire someone in my clinic I want to make sure they are going to be a good fit, be safe, effective, and NOT a legal risk. I have never ONCE thought about if they were cool or not....

P.S. most everyone on here is not a kid so please humble yourself a little.

[paramedico]

Get off your hi horse kid. Reading to much into it. You’re obviously the stick in the mud in your group. 

[camoman1234]

1 hour ago, paramedico said:

Get off your hi horse kid. Reading to much into it. You’re obviously the stick in the mud in your group. 

Actually I am not, I tend to be the out going/fun one that makes everyone laugh, just never been into "trying to be cool" as I could care less what people think of me. That was my point, do not tell students to be "cool" as that is not attribute most people look at when hiring someone. Have a good day

[paramedico]

Lighten up Francis. It’s a quality I look for nothing more. I don’t tell my students to be cool. Jesus. You would not be a good fit in my group and I’m sure I wouldn’t be in yours. Let’s just leave at that shall we? 

[camoman1234]

9 hours ago, paramedico said:

Lighten up Francis. It’s a quality I look for nothing more. I don’t tell my students to be cool. Jesus. You would not be a good fit in my group and I’m sure I wouldn’t be in yours. Let’s just leave at that shall we? 

Just be cool, we like cool people and we HIRE cool people sounds like that's what u were telling the students in your above post...? U still didn't answer the question of what is a stupid question in your eyes...? Btw who's francis? My name is camoman if u did not  read throughly. I won't leave anything alone when u are giving terrible advice to vulnerable students that are looking for REAL direction and help. FYI being an asshat is not cool. We are here to help one another so get over yourself as we all may not know everything about medicine.

[MedicinePower]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:59 AM, Boatswain2PA said:

 

Are you a graduate of or professor at Evergreen State?

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/evergreen-state-professors-grading-student-protesters-feelings/

These aren't grade school kids who need hand-holding, these are GRADUATE STUDENTS who will soon be practicing medicine, and if they still need their damn hands held in their last year of education then they are primed to KILL SOMEONE sometime after graduation.

No, but I do present a realistic and practical approach to instructor-student relations.

[MedicinePower]

On 5/2/2018 at 10:32 AM, Sed said:

Do you have any additional input on how I should meet them in the middle? I can continue to tell you that I have tried, but you seem to be gleaning some other idea that I'm some staunch drill sergeant where it's my way or the highway and I'm whining that students aren't complying. 

 

 

Thank you for your support and suggestions.

I do outline them (e.g., "Please review these topics: suture types, fx, post-op, ortho, h&p, etc), but clearly it's not getting through to students. Or maybe it's simply too much to expect early on. After some reflection and discussion with other colleagues, I will plan on having a one-on-one at the beginning like Sas does (or even beforehand to give them time to review) to set the expectations more clearly for both the student and I. And then I'm going to try to incorporate more study assignments rather than pimping and expecting them to self-start their learning/prep. 

You've already said you will make students "sit out". I am certain this is in violation of the contract you signed with their PA programs. It is also against ARC-PA accreditation.

[SedRate]

40 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

No, but I do present a realistic and practical approach to instructor-student relations.

And how is that, exactly?

[MedicinePower]

2 minutes ago, Sed said:

And how is that, exactly?

Instructors are experts. Students are novices. Instructors are paid professionals. Students are not.

[SedRate]

1 minute ago, MedicinePower said:

Instructors are experts. Students are novices. Instructors are paid professionals. Students are not.

That does not explain how, which is what I asked. I'll ask again: How exactly do you "present a realistic and practical approach to instructor-student relations?" I'm very interested to know how you do this. I want to continue to grow and learn, especially as a paid professional who is teaching soon-to-be paid professionals. Please share your insight and teach me a thing or two if you'd be so kind.

43 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

You've already said you will make students "sit out". I am certain this is in violation of the contract you signed with their PA programs. It is also against ARC-PA accreditation.

I am not withholding learning experiences from students and therefore I am not violating any such ARC-PA accreditation policy (http://www.arc-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/AccredManual-4th-edition.rev6_.17.pdf). I do not appreciate you making false accusations and bastardizing my verbiage. At this point, I think you are trolling my topic of discussion, which I find counterproductive. Is there some grudge you hold against preceptors like myself who are trying to hold graduate students accountable for their behavior?

I came here for professional and thoughtful discussion. If you cannot offer constructive criticism or mindful contributions, please leave this discussion.

[PAs12017]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:47 PM, ak004 said:

I start rotations in a few weeks. I hope to meet my preceptors standards, but more importantly, if I’m not being the kind of student I should be, or need to work on things or do things differently, I hope my preceptor sits me down and tells me to shape up! I want to be a good student, a good PA, and I want to represent my program well. It’s hard to know you’re doing something wrong if someone doesn’t tell you.
Good luck with the students OP. I hope you don’t take them as being representative of the entire next generation of new PAs/younger PAs

this was the point I was trying to make. Expectations and experiences vary, and every classmate I have talked to goes in and tries their best. So, if you feel it is not sufficient, sit them down after day 2 (I think day 1 we are trying to pick up the flow and figure out what the expectations are) and tell them what they are doing wrong and what you would like to see them do- could be a 3 min conversation and get the job done. Not sure if you have done this, I don't remember reading you had other than sending the email beforehand. 

 

[SedRate]

On 5/4/2018 at 10:23 AM, PAs12017 said:

this was the point I was trying to make. Expectations and experiences vary, and every classmate I have talked to goes in and tries their best. So, if you feel it is not sufficient, sit them down after day 2 (I think day 1 we are trying to pick up the flow and figure out what the expectations are) and tell them what they are doing wrong and what you would like to see them do- could be a 3 min conversation and get the job done. Not sure if you have done this, I don't remember reading you had other than sending the email beforehand. 

 

The general consensus seems to agree that I need to have a clearer delivery of my expectations right off the bat. I will definitely work on this. Hopefully, this will bridge the gap that I've had with some of my students and help set them up for success.

[SedRate]

Thanks again to everyone for contributing and offering some great advice and viewpoints. This discussion has allowed me to reflect on my own performance and methodologies and how I can continue to improve. 

[MedicinePower]

On 5/4/2018 at 2:43 AM, Sed said:

That does not explain how, which is what I asked. I'll ask again: How exactly do you "present a realistic and practical approach to instructor-student relations?" I'm very interested to know how you do this. I want to continue to grow and learn, especially as a paid professional who is teaching soon-to-be paid professionals. Please share your insight and teach me a thing or two if you'd be so kind.

I am not withholding learning experiences from students and therefore I am not violating any such ARC-PA accreditation policy (http://www.arc-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/AccredManual-4th-edition.rev6_.17.pdf). I do not appreciate you making false accusations and bastardizing my verbiage. At this point, I think you are trolling my topic of discussion, which I find counterproductive. Is there some grudge you hold against preceptors like myself who are trying to hold graduate students accountable for their behavior?

I came here for professional and thoughtful discussion. If you cannot offer constructive criticism or mindful contributions, please leave this discussion.

By necessity my advice which would prevent you from making the students "sit out" is constructive as any attempt to use a subjective analysis as you are doing is harmful to the students. If you don't wish to receive honest and helpful advice then perchance you ought not post on an internet forum.