John Doe, PhD, PA-C

[Spike5002]

I have posted on this topic once before, but I was hoping to discuss it a bit differently than I have before...

 

I will be beginning my schooling at Midwestern Univ's PA program in June, and am very excited to get started. I have a very strong calling to be a Physician Assistant, and am absolutely 100% positive that this is something I was meant for. I love interacting with people, I love working in the health care industry (currently working as an ER Tech and Office Assistant at a Derm office), and cannot wait to see what lies ahead of me working as a health care provider.

 

However, I have a personal goal to attain my PhD in the basic science sometime in my future. I have always been in love with learning, and I feel that attaining a PhD (in Mollecular Physio, Immuno, Molecular Bio, etc...) will help me fulfill that goal - as well as give me a unique oppurtunity to pass my love of learning on to other students in an undergraduate/graduate university. I've heard in the past from others that getting my PhD with the goal of teaching is like trying to swat a fly with a nuclear bomb. I understand the metaphor, but it honestly is something that I have wanted to do for quite some time (PhD program) and I was highly encouraged to do so by my professors. I feel that having experience as a PA, and my extensive knowledge in a specific area in the basic sciences, will allow me to bring unique tools to a group of students most likely entering the health care industry.

 

I have always enjoyed research, but have never wanted to considered a career as a research scientist. I understand that in many universities across the country, PhD level professors ordinarily focus on research, and use teaching as a means by which they can continue their research at that particular organization (correct me if I am wrong on that point. I am no expert). However, at the private university I attended in my undergraduate, the professors always put teaching first, and research second (usually using it as a means to expose their students to differing areas of research, as well as continually being published). I really enjoyed the relationship that I had with those professors.

 

Lastly, I hope the above statements don't make my desire for a PhD and eventual professorship sound like more important goals for me, they just happen to be additional goals. I am, and will always be, a goal-oriented individual. After working as a PA, I want something to work towards. I don't want my working as a PA to be the last thing for me. I want to grow and continue to better myself in every way I can think of, especially academically.

 

My question is simple. How crazy am I to think that I can earn my PhD as a practicing PA-C?

 

Thanks for your input...

[jmj11]

I think it is clearly a function of family and other, non-being-a-PA, variables. There is no reason you can not work on your PhD while being a PA. It would have been impossible for me only because my wife and I choose to have a large family and she preferred not work. So, with five children, my life has been totally consumed with making money (as the sole provider for a large family) and investing in the lives of my children and, up until recently, have had no time for anything else. But that was our personal choice.

 

If you are single, or have a wife who works too, there should be no issue in going back to school.

 

That's my opinion.

[roman6163]

Spike,

Did you get a brain freeze when you drank that Starbucks Icy Frappuccino?

[Spike5002]

No sir. It was quite tasty, and gave me the jolt of caffeine I needed.

 

Thanks jmj. It will always be a goal of mine, no matter what others say, but I appreciate the positive comments.

[acozadd]

Most of my professors spent 5-6+ years obtaining their Ph. D. depending on their area of specialty. This could become an issue when 1) you cannot pay off your student loans on the stipend you receive from the phd program 2) you are not practicing medicine and are expected to retain all of the knowledge and pass the PANRE. It is certainly possible if it's what you really want, but the order you are pursuing these might make things a bit more difficult. Unfortunately, no PA programs have the same layout as some med schools with the md/phd.

[Spike5002]

I definitely realize the road ahead will be most difficult. PhD programs can many times be 4+ years full time, and adding the fact that I would like to continue working as a PA (most likely in a more limited capacity), it will only add on the years to that final goal. In my own eyes, nothing worth doing well is easy, and this is something I sincerely want to do. I am quite young still, 22, and from my own limited life experiences, it seems that many things can be done as long as you have the heart and will to do it. It is definitely something that I long for, and we'll see if my strong desires to accomplish it will be enough!

 

I guess mainly this is just something to live for. Another goal - something to work towards to keep myself going. Thanks to everyone for your words of encouragement and constructive criticism. It means a lot!

[jwells78]

Dude I would say strive for your dreams. You're still young and you have plenty of time to do it. You may find that your road will wind and change, but I would say shoot for the moon. I'm a practicing PA now and I am still taking coursework and managing to be a husband/ father- anything is possible.

 

BTW bro- you look like you're 12! ;) I thought I had a baby face!! HAHAHA LOL

[Cobb31]

no PA programs have the same layout as some med schools with the md/phd.

 

I believe wake forest university does. Not sure how much the MMS/PhD compares to the MD/PhD though.

[acozadd]

I definitely realize the road ahead will be most difficult. PhD programs can many times be 4+ years full time, and adding the fact that I would like to continue working as a PA (most likely in a more limited capacity), it will only add on the years to that final goal. In my own eyes, nothing worth doing well is easy, and this is something I sincerely want to do. I am quite young still, 22, and from my own limited life experiences, it seems that many things can be done as long as you have the heart and will to do it. It is definitely something that I long for, and we'll see if my strong desires to accomplish it will be enough!

 

I guess mainly this is just something to live for. Another goal - something to work towards to keep myself going. Thanks to everyone for your words of encouragement and constructive criticism. It means a lot!

 

Make it happen man. I am all for continuing education and trying to fulfill one's goals-- you live once, you don't want to look back and think... damn if only I...

[acozadd]

I believe wake forest university does. Not sure how much the MMS/PhD compares to the MD/PhD though.

I know many programs have a dual master in (PA studies) and master of public health. I haven't looked into wake forest however-- is their Ph. D. in public health or is it in a field of your choice?

 

Those doing research are the ones truly making the difference in medicine by creating new pharmaceuticals, technology, genetic discoveries, etc.

From my personal experience-- after finishing a 1.5 year capstone research project in undergrad without any significant results or repeatability among countless trials and countless hours spent frustrated, you will never see me step foot into a research facility. Then again how much fun can studying microtubule structure and function in mutant strains of Chlamydomonas really be :confused:

[kayakr]

I say why not - go for it! And sometimes, just having a dream..whether it someday be fulfilled or not...is better than the fruition of it really happening. Sometimes the journey is more fulfilling than the destination. Enjoy the experience for what it's worth? :)

[plant biologist]

I feel I should add my two cents given that I am switching from a PhD in Biology to a Pa program. If you really want to teach science you should get a PhD in science education rather than a PhD in science. The program length is much shorter and you can generally work while you are in school. All of the lecturers at my research one university have taken this route. Getting a teaching gig at a small institution is highly competitive and they prefer people with lots of teaching experience, which you won't get in a graduate research program. If you'd like some more ifo from me feel free to PM me.

[plant biologist]

One additional note. I doubt there is a PhD program in science out there that will accept someone who wants to work as a PA while they are in school. It's just not realistic. You'll need to be in the lab 24/7 to get any results, and trying to work as a PA at the same time is just setting yourself up for a disaster. You can do both, but you are going to have to abandon one or the other for long periods of time to make it work.

[Spike5002]

BTW bro- you look like you're 12! ;) I thought I had a baby face!! HAHAHA LOL

 

haha. yea the picture isn't very "flattering", but it was one of the few I had of just me that close up. I could say "that was two years ago!", but in all honesty, I don't think I've changed that much. I have grown a full beard since then, if that makes any difference.

 

So a PhD in Science Education huh? Can't say I've heard that before. I guess my desire is to learn a certain subject inside and out. That was the main reason behind me wanting to get my PhD in the basic sciences (Cellular and Molecular Physio, Immuno, Micro, etc...) However, I know there are any number of great programs out there. Last thing I want to do is be closed-minded.

[Cobb31]

Advance for PAs says the PhD at wake forest is in clinical and population translational science. I'm not sure what that means but I thought it was for research.

[plant biologist]

The most important thing I've learned in graduate school is how to teach myself a topic. If you want to learn about a particular subject, you just need to read all the journal articles you can find on the topic. All graduate school really does is provide you with is the time necessary to do so. You definitely don't need a PhD to learn a subject inside and out :).

[rmgiordano]

Plant Biologist, that's certainly true. However, by getting the degree they make sure that you know the subject inside and out. In addition, for the bio sciences, they set you up so that you [should] have an understanding on how to scientifically deduce. It will help with how you approach many things in life including research and healthcare.

 

The question remains if one wants to put the time and sacrifice in to achieve that. As you have also mentioned, one will certainly take you away from the other at some point.

[Spike5002]

Absolutely. I know that, in all actuality, there will have to be a sacrifice of time somewhere in my life. I guess the only thing that remains for me is to find a time in my life where that might be possible. (ex. financially stable enough to cut back hours, etc...). Who knows!

 

That's what life is all about - the unpredictability and the unknown. Makes life worth living.

 

Thank you all for your input...

[bobuddy]

I dont know if this will help you or not, but I obtained my PhD in Molecular Biology before I went to PA school. I was holding out for the MD/PhD program to get up and running, and got tired of waiting. I thought PA school would be a better option for me financially and I wanted to get my life back. As previous posters have mentioned, you will NOT be able to do a PhD and work as a PA. You will be expected to live for your research day in and day out. If you did your PA school first and then went back for your doctorate, trying to get back into the clinics could be tough. BTW, my PhD took 6 years. Sometimes your research projects are not cut and dry and your results can be dissertation worthy.... or not...... and you have to start over. :(

 

If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to pm me or post here.

[mtrout85]

Realistically, from a training and career perspective the pursuit of a dual PA/PHd in basic sciences for a current undergraduate is a poor choice.

 

Your best option would be to consider a MD/PhD which is funded through the Medical Scientist Training Program which would pay for the full cost of medical school and graduate school.

[Shawn_Not_Sean]

Spike, it sort of seems you have already made up your mind. I don't mean this to come off confrontational by any means. I just notice that even when those with experience in obtaining their PhD have sent a word of caution (some even a down right no), you seem to look at it as: well that was you. Again, not trying to come down on you too hard or anything, but if you ask for someone's opinion... and then consistently argue against it... it seems odd.

 

That being said, if you want to do it, go for it. Maybe it will work out for you. - Our program director did obtain his PhD while practicing and being a faculty member. However, as someone has said already, I believe his PhD was in education. (Which makes sense since he was/is a faculty member.) Best of luck!

[Superfundee]

I had similar dilemma while I was in PA school. It really depends on what area you want to focus on. Which will be your primary career? being a clinician or researcher or professor/faculty?

If your goal is to become a medical scientist, I am aware that you have to have MD degree. PA degree with PhD in pathology or other basic science will not get you a job as a medical scientist / pathologist who can make 20K+. Also you might have to spend 3+ years of post-doc as a researcher making 30-40K+ year before you start looking for a job as a research scientist or faculty job (which pay you staring about 70K-100K) Plus I don't think PA with PhD in basic science get the same treatment as MD/PhD medical scientist does in research field. I would recommend either PhD in education if you are interested in teaching, or public health degree. PhD in epidemiology, health administration, community health ...etc At least it would be a nice addition to your career as a clinician.

 

 

I am going for PhD in epidemiology. I love epidemiological research looking at risk factors. I am considering to work as a part-time or per-diem PA for the rest of my life.

GOOD LUCK. Follow your dream.

[eve81]

I remember wanting to do MD/PhD when I was interested in becoming an MD but, through my research experiences while in college, I realized that most MDs who were doing research didn't have PhDs at all. I wonder if you could just be a PA-C faculty member just like most of the ones that interviewed me and do some research on the side, just like all the other MDs? I'm not too sure if that has been done by other PAs but I'm pretty sure, they could be as helpful as MDs in research settings, especially clinical research.

[sillycibin]

Someone else already mentioned the Wake Forest PA/PhD program. It's purpose is to train clinical scientists. That may be more what you are seeking. I graduated from a PA program 2009 and immediately worked to get in to a PhD program in biomedical science. 1.5 years later I've come to realize that the crossover between the two disciplines is not very much. It is quite hard to maintain clinical knowledge while shoehorning basic molecular bio in. Also, lab can be very boring (lots of repetitious pippetting). Job prospects for scientists are grim and getting grimmer. Post-doc generally required for 1-3 years and it pays $35,000. The only clinical disciplines where a basic science degree can complement a PA is in oncology or infectious disease. ID PA jobs are super scarce. So that pretty much leaves onc. Studying one single protein for 3-4 years does not really gain you much insight in other clinical disciplines.

 

My advice: Just get your MD. You can do basic science research if you want since MDs have lots of clout and can write for grants just like PhDs and even have a better shot at them now with the emphasis on translational research. Plus if you have trouble landing a position at a med school and getting a lab, well you can always fall back on the $200k+ you're making as a doctor.

[zzz]

Hi,

I read your thread and see your situation is similar to mine. I finished PA school several years ago and always wanted more education. I spend days racking my brain to figure out what is the next step for grad school. I wonder is it dental school, DO program, medical school, physical therapy school, or Ph.D program? Some Ph.D program takes 4-9 yrs to finish. Which one is right for me? It consumes me to the point that I don't do anything besides searching for programs. I pray for the thought of going back to school to be vanished from my head. I woke up one day and the thought has diminished.

 

I am fortunate to have several options:

1. Never have to work & raise a family only.

2. Go back to school & study whatever I want.

3. Work part time

 

There are so many things that life offer besides just to study and schooling. I have seen many MD females ending up being divorced, single, not being able to have kids bc its too late for their age, some have kids who are not normal, or being a breadwinner.

 

I am glad that I see life with a different perspective. I am not suffering anymore!!