A non-traditional hopeful: yes or no?

[Adrianna]

Hello. This forum has already been quite helpful and informative so I'm posting for the first time in hopes of getting a few more nuggets of wisdom from all of you. In particular, I'd appreciate comments from those who are a bit older and long-removed from school when they decided to try to become a PA.

 

My 32-second summary is as follows: Graduated with a B.S in Engineering about 15 years ago. Unfortunately I also graduated with a 3.0-3.1ish overall gpa and an even worse - for PA school anyway - 2.8 science GPA with 40 science credit hours (the usual physics/calculus/chemistry trilogy that all engineers take). I'm from an immigrant family (URM) and was living through hard times which made school something other than priority #1.

 

The ubiquitous post-bac: I'm finishing up the typical pre-PA curriculum of A&P 1/2, Biology 1/2, Microbiology, and a few other choice classes like Organic Chemistry and Medical Terminology.

 

The problem, er, problems...

 

Academic: Even with A's in all of my post-bac courses, I'm looking at a 3.3 science and overall GPA. From what I've seen on this board, this is clearly on the very low end. But this can be balanced by HCE right or can it? This leads me to the next point..

 

HCE: I've put in some time volunteering and shadowing PA's already. I've no qualms with volunteering and filing papers or doing "grunt" work at a health care facility but have been told by every program I've spoken with that they are looking for paid HCE. The well-meaning advice for getting paid HCE is to obtain an EMT, CNA, or similar training and work for a while - 1000+ hours with more being better. I mean this with the utmost sincerity but there's no way I could live off the pay folks in those fields make, even for a short time. Certainly not with a family to support and a host of bills to pay. I know some people here manage to do so - and more power to you - but I'm all too aware of how underpaid such work is. I'm also geographically limited for the aforementioned family reasons.

 

I have limited funds with which to continue taking many more classes solely to boost my GPA beyond the nominal and typical PA-prereqs.

 

Perhaps the biggest irony is that given the way Osteopathic Schools and AACOMAS rank applicants with provisions for grade replacement and consideration for my URM status (both parents Latin immigrants, and am native/fluent Spanish & Portuguese speaker), I have a seemingly much better chance to get into med school than PA school. Although I have precious little desire to be a physician.

 

In my Microbiology class of 25 there are at least 9 other pre-PA students. All of them are < 25 years old, live with their parents, work as CNA's, EMT/PCT's, and have high GPA's from non-science degrees (marketing, business, etc). It's a great formula for those that fit it but it's not applicable to some of us :(

 

Any advice please? Should I cut my losses and look for another field? Become a nurse (as with being an MD/DO, i haven't much interest in nursing)? Become an armchair PA here at the forum (just kidding!). I'm drawn to the field because of the direct patient care, evidence/science-based practice, work-life balance, and practical/pragmatic focus I've seen in the PA's I've shadowed.

[smansoor34]

I don't think that you have absolutely NO chance of getting in. It seems like you've been doing pretty well in your post-bac. courses since your GPA increased so that's a good sign! If you look on the 'accepted applicants' thread on the Pre-PA general discussion forum there are more than a couple of people who did not do so well but managed to increase their GPA and get into well-known schools.

 

I myself applied to PA schools this past cycle but was not able to get into my school of choice due to lack of HCE. Currently, I'm in my final year of university and will try to focus on finishing any pre-reqs. and gain some HCE as a CNA while I take a year off after graduation. I will apply again in the next cycle because really there's no harm in applying!

 

If you're tight on money, like I am, you should check out your local Red Cross Center. They offer Nursing Assistant courses for much less than most places. I tried looking into the Red Cross near my home but they don't have any classes near my area so instead I'll be taking my CNA course at a community college in the summer and working during the semester to save up money for the class. Good luck but don't lose hope! Work on your application and GPA, there are a lot of others who are in the same boat as you. :)

[marktheshark89]

Adrianna,

 

You definitely have a chance of being accepted into PA school. First and foremost, there are many programs that do not emphasize HCE, and some which do not even have an HCE requirement. Secondly, it is possible to get patient contact hours on a volunteer basis without a certification (though obviously having a certification would make getting a position working with patients easier). Having a credential and using it to gain patient care experience is obviously the best case scenario, but that being said, I was accepted to 3 PA programs this past cycle with no paid/credentialed HCE (though I had somewhere between 1500-1800 hours of patient contact through hospital volunteering in the ED, geriatric rehab, and doing a mental health internship). Its definitely not ideal for anyone to not get a certification or in some way use a prior degree to get direct patient care experience (i.e. work with patients in clinical research trials for someone with a science degree), but I did it, and I'm sure several others have as well. You can too! I know someone who will be attending the program that I was accepted to who had 60 hours of PA shadowing, and that was the extent of their experience. As I said, this may not be ideal, but its far from impossible.

[JasonD]

You CAN get into a PA program with a GPA in the low 3's and little or no HCE. BUT, you will be very limited in the programs that will consider you. As always, the best formula for getting in is HIGH GPA, a lot of HCE, and you come across well in an interview/LOR. Anything else and your road is a tough one.

[MedicinePower]

Any chance of taking calc/physics/chemistry over again and getting an A in them? A small minority of PA school accept grade replacements (but all DO medical schools accept grade replacements) but they will average the old and new grades together which should help your GPA a lot. It's not a bad idea to retake a general chemistry class for PA school, just to get yourself back into the mode of thinking like a biologist/chemist.

[Alliecat419]

I'm not sure what your family/personal situation is, but many CNA and EMT-B courses offer night and/or weekend options. Would it be possible for you to obtain one of those and pick up work on a very part time or per diem basis? I'm in a similar situation as far as not being able to leave a higher paying day job and this is what I plan to do. It's not the most exciting or medically relevant experience, but at least in my area, CNA work is ALWAYS available on a per diem basis, especially in LTC/SNF's

[Adrianna]

Oh wow, happy to see the responses and ideas.

 

I am quite willing to follow the CNA/EMT path. Everyone plays an important role and I believe that to be true at all levels of the medical field. My reservation has more been that I can't afford to quit my job and work in said fields as that would basically put my family out on the street. Not exactly conducive to a lot of things, PA school acceptance among them :\

 

I've asked volunteer coordinators directly whether my having any sort of medical certificate would allow me to do direct patient care. Granted the sample size is modest, but of those I asked, the answer has been no. This is of course rather frustrating in that I'm limited to basically filing papers, answering phones, and the fine art of candy striping. Mind you, I understand their rationale that there are liability and/or insurance issues, hence the reluctance to allow a non-employee to perform genuine medical work (even as simple as taking blood pressure, vitals, H & W).

 

Someone mentioned getting part-time jobs in these professions and that I imagine is the one possibility that might work. I can't leave my current job, but I could perhaps add a bit of part-time work after I finish my PA pre-reqs. Particularly the SNF/LTC/ALF type facilities mentioned above where maybe someone w/o experience might have a shot at getting a job.

 

As for taking some of the core science classes again like chemistry/physics - given enough time I could do that though I'm limited in funds and do not want to take loans to take non-degree counting undergrad classes. Although I would rather take them if possible as I hate not feeling totally confident on any of the core material. Stunned at how expensive school has become (My entire B.S. in Engineering cost maybe $13k?) but that's a different rant.

 

I registered on the CASPA site to get a sense of what my hypothetical application would look like. Unfortunately I've noticed they will count engineering classes as other science and hence, as part of my science GPA. So in that regard I actually have something like 100+ semester hours in science classes all at that same dismal ~2.8-3.0ish science GPA. I had figured a 3.3 science gpa with all A's and just 40 already existing science credit hours and that was going to be on the very low end as is. Now it may be even less as I'll have 100+ science credit hours.

 

Some of you in this thread and others whose posts I've read about in the forum are very persistent and tenacious in getting into PA school, trying several times. Really, that's to be lauded and is admirable. In my case, with where I'm at in life, I fell obliged to look at the cost/benefit of pursuing a career. So I don't know how many years I can put into just reapplying after failing to get selected.

 

I don't want to close the door on being a PA prematurely but with how ultra-competitive admissions are and will likely become more so, it seems the door may be closing regardless.

[Hoosier1]

Not to be rude but if you can't afford to quit your job how will you attend PA school? PA school is full time and most will not allow, or at least strongly discourage, employment. No way you could work full time and attend PA school.

[bjl12]

Not to be rude but if you can't afford to quit your job how will you attend PA school? PA school is full time and most will not allow, or at least strongly discourage, employment. No way you could work full time and attend PA school.

 

This is false. My Uncle's a fireman and is friends with many paramedics. One of the paramedics he knows did PA school while working FT. I imagine that paramedic was in the gross minority though

[MedicinePower]

Check into your local community college. You should be able to take these courses there at minimal expense.

[Adrianna]

Incredibly I am taking the courses at a community college. Like so many punters, I'd heard about how school tuition had become more expensive but I had no idea just how much until I returned. I am paying 2x as much $/credit hour at one of the CC's as I did at the university I completed my B.S - mind you, it is the same state. :saddd:

 

I think quitting the well-paying job that supports you and your family in order to pursue something like being a CNA or EMT while taking out loans in hopes of pursuing a grad school program you have very slim chances to be accepted into - with my stats anyway - just isn't worth it. I've no problems taking out loans if I am actually in a PA program and know that I have this great career waiting for me. I spent years paying off my original student loans and I'm certainly not taking out new ones unless they directly are paying for a new career.

 

The hyper-competitive admissions process to PA school, the glowing write-ups in mass-media publications like Forbes, the flood of bright people fleeing from unstable and unsatisfying fields leads me to think it will only get harder to be accepted. I could spend 3+ years trying to get into PA school and I've met plenty of actual PA's and students during my volunteer and shadowing time who had experienced just that.

 

That's lead me to give serious consideration to being a DO. What I cannot however deal with in med school is the horrendous bullying and abusive culture of clinical rotations and residency. In addition, I simply don't think I want (or could survive!) an existence full of sleep deprivation, the inevitably bad lifestyle that so many med students and residents have, and becoming that cynical, jaded person who has lost the ability to empathize and connect with patients. I don't condemn the profession, but the education and the way it is delivered seems so punitive, inefficient, and inhumane.

[Alliecat419]

Adrianna, have you decided on anything yet? I'm curious since our situations are somewhat similar (non-trad w/prior BA, can't quit day job). I'm still torn between trying to get hospital experience part time as a CNA/taking a few classes to boost my GPA/still working 9-5... vs going to RT school. Like you, I've also questioned how practical it would be to take the former route and still perhaps not get in for 2-3 cycles.

[bcreid2]

Adrianna, you are in a situation that was similar to mine. I also have a family, had a good paying job, and had graduated with my B.S. degree 16 years prior. I hated my job and was dealing with possibility of on and off layoffs. This gave me more stress than anything else. I decided to go back to school to be a PA. I also took that leap of faith with the uncertainty of not getting into school. I spent one and a half years taking post-bac pre-reqs. I got my EMT-B. I got a job making $14 an hour (down from $32 an hour) as an ER tech. I did take out student loans to cover some living expenses. Granted, my wife was working part time as an LPN at the time. I was committed to being a PA and was all in, period (my wife worked very hard to keep me focussed and from not jumping ship). There are no certainties in anything. If you are looking for people to tell you it will be alright, you will be hard pressed. You have to decide on your own and take the leap or not. I applied to 10 schools, got denied by 9. Got an interview at one school, got accepted, and am currently starting my clinical year soon. A little luck? Maybe. But you will never know unless you are all in.

[Timon]

I've been wanting to write what bcreid2 wrote since you first posted this but couldn't find a way to say it without being abrasive. I was in the same boat... Made $80k a year but worked in an industry that was becoming obsolete (CDs and DVDs). I knew I had to commit to my decision so I set up a support network and got my family involved. I'm 32 with a wife and daughter. I went all in and sold my house and moved my family in with my sister. I used the income from the sale of my house to pay for my education and subsidize my lack of income. I lowered my expenses as much as possible and finished 44 units of prerequisites in 6 months full time. I had an uphill battle coming from a 2.31 undergrad GPA and a 3.69 MBA gpa and was applying to schools with a 2.82 my first go around and then a 2.9 something my second time.

 

I never got down on myself and did all i could possibly do to achieve this goal. My first go around I applied to 8 schools and was rejected by all of them. I took their feedback and increased my GPA more and then I got a license as a phlebotomist, EKG tech, and EMT and landed a job as an ER Tech. I picked up as many shifts possible to not only gain HCE but just to survive. My second go around I applied to 2 schools and I was accepted to one and I'm on hold status at the other. I begin PA school in July 2013.

 

A decision like this requires a commitment and a support network. This question was also asked at a couple a school interviews as well. Food for thought as you begin your path to becoming a PA. Best of luck to you!

[holycow]

have you thought about waiting to set your best foot forward? I understand you said you can't afford to take more courses or quit your job. But like someone said, pick up as many extra shifts as an EMT/CNA/ER tech or whatever HCE job you can land and not apply this year but maybe wait a year while taking a class here and there? Your GPA is low but it's doable. My degree was in Genetics and I only had a 3.1. So most of my credits were science credits. I applied last year, and did not get accepted. I worked on getting more HCE as that would be the only thing I could change and took 1 course to keep showing that I am still motivated to raise my gpa. I got accepted to a program (starting in May) and have been waitlisted at two other programs.

[lilinney]

Incredibly I am taking the courses at a community college. Like so many punters, I'd heard about how school tuition had become more expensive but I had no idea just how much until I returned. I am paying 2x as much $/credit hour at one of the CC's as I did at the university I completed my B.S - mind you, it is the same state. :saddd:

 

I think quitting the well-paying job that supports you and your family in order to pursue something like being a CNA or EMT while taking out loans in hopes of pursuing a grad school program you have very slim chances to be accepted into - with my stats anyway - just isn't worth it. I've no problems taking out loans if I am actually in a PA program and know that I have this great career waiting for me. I spent years paying off my original student loans and I'm certainly not taking out new ones unless they directly are paying for a new career.

 

The hyper-competitive admissions process to PA school, the glowing write-ups in mass-media publications like Forbes, the flood of bright people fleeing from unstable and unsatisfying fields leads me to think it will only get harder to be accepted. I could spend 3+ years trying to get into PA school and I've met plenty of actual PA's and students during my volunteer and shadowing time who had experienced just that.

 

That's lead me to give serious consideration to being a DO. What I cannot however deal with in med school is the horrendous bullying and abusive culture of clinical rotations and residency. In addition, I simply don't think I want (or could survive!) an existence full of sleep deprivation, the inevitably bad lifestyle that so many med students and residents have, and becoming that cynical, jaded person who has lost the ability to empathize and connect with patients. I don't condemn the profession, but the education and the way it is delivered seems so punitive, inefficient, and inhumane.

Not all HCE work requires a license, some hospitals will pay for it if they do. Most hospitals need help desperately and will work with you if you can float for even just 1-2 days a week while keeping your regular job. It is all difficult if you are managing your family on your own, but you've already pulled through alot. You will be surprised how quickly the hours add up even part-time and many good schools have requirements under 1,000 hours.

The most important thing is to separate whether the perceived hurdles are really that or if you are having a change of heart. Is it make or break if you don't make it in the first time around? Only you know the answer.

[Adrianna]

Hi, thanks for the replies and comments. Even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them - much as I imagine some of you might disagree with my conclusions - I definitely appreciate the thoughts.

 

Quitting my job is just not something I'm willing to do. My SO does not have a good paying job and no matter what koolaid the TV economy guru's push, I believe the economy is not remotely good from a job seekers perspective. Walking away from my job - without any certainty of acceptance or even a good shot at it - is tantamount to economic ruin for me. For younger folks who have little to lose or those that have SO's that can help them out economically, then more power to you.

 

Back to the point at hand, I think trying to get some HCE on the side is challenging for so many reasons we've talked about, but at least it is possible so I'm willing to explore that avenue in much greater detail.

 

Admittedly, I'm reconsidering nursing or more specifically being an NP. I have the utmost respect for nurses and hospitals would have no chance of running without them. Yet everything I've seen in person and via friends tells me it is generally, with some exceptions, a massively stressful and underpaid field. Still, becoming an NP is considerably easier than becoming a PA - it isn't even close in terms of the acceptance criteria for a fairly average MSN program vs. even a "lower-tier" PA program.

 

I'd actually rather be a DO or MD than a nurse, but I know I could never accept or deal with the physical (not mental) demands that the med school lifestyle, especially years 3 & 4, much less that of a resident, would demand.

 

So for now still taking my classes and will likely finish the typical PA school prereqs (Bio 1/2, A&P 1/2, I-chem 1/2, O-chem 1) while getting whatever side HCE I can obtain.

 

Because of the CASPA app cycle timeline I can't really apply this year to a PA program as I'll finish prereqs too late. So the earliest I could realistically apply is 03/2014 and the soonest I could actually begin a program, if by some odd chance I was accepted, would be around 08/2014.

 

All that said, I'm going to apply to a community college RN program. If accepted at the RN program, which is very likely, I could conceivably start next 01/2014, finish in 2 years, have a very manageable amount of loans (<$10k) when done, try to get an RN job outside the usual med-surg pressure-cooker environment, and apply to an MSN (or DNP i guess) program. I'll apply to a PA program during the 2014 CASPA cycle and see what happens, maybe I could get lucky but I'm not counting on it!

[Moiraine57]

I'm in somewhat of a similar boat myself, except I have two small children as well. I actually fit the profile better for med school (GPA of 3.9+), but PA is a better fit for where I am in life now.

 

Good luck!