1 DWI arrest and school suspension. What to do??

[tmr4869]

Hello all,

 

I am looking for some positive and straight forward input. Here is my situation:

 

In 2007 I was arrested and charged with DWI in NC (I am assuming it is a misdemeanor charge since I am not a repeat offender and I did not kill anyone). I was under 21 at the time. The charge was later dismissed. I am in the process of getting it expunged now. When schools ask if I have been arrested or convicted of a crime, am I obligated to tell them about the arrest for DWI even though it is expunged?

 

Also, I was then suspended from my university a year later for having three underage drinking tickets. I went to therapy to address allot of my issues, and I now have a new lease on life. I have not had any arrests/charges since the dismissed DWI. I have allot of remorse for my poor decisions in the past, but I also think I learned allot from them. My grades also became better after therapy and everything. I am just wondering if anyone has had success gaining admission to a Masters program with a suspension on their record, and/or arrest for DWI. Do ya'll think my efforts toward becoming a PA are hopeless? Any advice is welcome.

 

Thank you in advance for your opinions and comments.

[mktalon]

If you don't mind my asking... how many years have transpired since your arrest and your suspension. I ask because if it has only been a year then you might have a hard time convincing an adcom that you have seen the error of your ways and have since turned a over a new leaf. If 5 years have passed then you might stand a better chance at convincing them as such. I am not sure whether or not the suspension is an automatic decline, but it does make you a risk factor for sure. When you say your grades improved... how much? Was there a very sharp increase or just a gradual trend upward? How bad were your grades before? We all have made mistakes (well, most of us anyway), and have all had to recover from them to prove ourselves. As far as the arrest record and it being expunged... I would call a school that you are NOT interested in attending and ask them what the accepted policy is on the issue. That way you don't reveal anything damaging to schools you want to go to and still get your answers.

[JasonD]

An arrest with no conviction/no charges pressed is nothing. I would not mention it unless specifically asked if you were ever arrested...and I can't imagine an adcom ever doing that. Convicted? Yes. Arrested? No.

 

The suspensions you WILL have to explain. The longer ago they were the better.

[winterallsummer]

Have hope - I know someone who got into med school with a DWI, the charge somewhat dropped and somewhat not, like in your case. Maybe you could call the admissions office of a different school (one you don't care about), straighten it out with them, then apply that to your school (as far as what you have to disclose and what you can keep to yourself). They do run background checks, some of these schools, upon admission, so do your research!

[tmr4869]

If you don't mind my asking... how many years have transpired since your arrest and your suspension. I ask because if it has only been a year then you might have a hard time convincing an adcom that you have seen the error of your ways and have since turned a over a new leaf. If 5 years have passed then you might stand a better chance at convincing them as such. I am not sure whether or not the suspension is an automatic decline, but it does make you a risk factor for sure. When you say your grades improved... how much? Was there a very sharp increase or just a gradual trend upward? How bad were your grades before? We all have made mistakes (well, most of us anyway), and have all had to recover from them to prove ourselves. As far as the arrest record and it being expunged... I would call a school that you are NOT interested in attending and ask them what the accepted policy is on the issue. That way you don't reveal anything damaging to schools you want to go to and still get your answers.

 

It has now been a little more than three years since my suspension and four for the arrest. I have volunteered for more than 100 hours to try and redeem myself if possible. My grades where never bad in all honesty. They went from mixed As and Bs to mostly As. That is a good idea about calling another school to ask about the expungement. The school I am applying to now specifically asks if I have had any arrests or convictions.

[Just Steve]

If/when you attend a PA school there will be several background checks ran on you. Theses are mandated by various organizations to ensure students and providers don't have any hidden skeletons. I think it would behoove you to speak with a lawyer who is well versed in such matters. If your alcohol related past is discovered I doubt it will disqualify you from obtaining your PA cert but the state may want proof that you have attended a rehab program that is designed for medical professionals.

 

The money invested in an hour of a lawyer's time may save you thousands in the long run. It would truly suck to pay 100,000 for PA school then be denied the board exam because of failure to fully disclose the past.

[calad]

Maybe you can contact the school anonymously to see how they feel on the issue?

[Hoosier1]

Contrary to common belief having something expunged does not make it invisible. There are several instances where a background check can open those records. One of those instances is for health care providers. I don't remember the specifics but it usually centers around moral issues. Also keep in mind that almost no level of expungement will hide a crime from a FBI check.

 

You said the charges were dismissed. Were they totally dismissed or did you plead guilty or no contest to a lesser charge? You definately need to contact an attorney that specializes in this type of case.

[tmr4869]

First I wanted to thank all for the positive and helpful responses. As I am sure you all know, applying to PA school is stressful in and of itself, so with my past in mind, I am aggressive seeking the best way to be honest and truthful in my attempts to develop myself professionally. I have a great lawyer that is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to DWI and expungements. In response to GScott and others, I think I will take your advice in asking my lawyer if this information must be disclosed. The charge was totally dismissed. I did not plead guilty or no contest to a lesser charge.

 

In response to Just Steve, I have never heard of rehab programs designed for medical professionals. Do you think this is something that I should enroll myself in before applying to school? or would this path be taken before applying for certification?

[duchesskre]

I dont know what state you live in, but I live in Florida so I am attaching some info I found the other day. This is part of the application to the DOH for licensing in the state. As you can see they are very explicit in their questioning and anything answered with a "yes" MUST be documented and explained. Honestly, I would call your state licensing board and discuss it with them.....and I would prolly do that now....

 

"THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS MUST BE ANSWERED YES OR NO. ALL AFFIRMATIVE ANSWERS MUST BE

PERSONALLY EXPLAINED TO THE COUNCIL IN DETAIL ON AN ADDITIONAL SHEET. DOCUMENTATION

SUBSTANTIATING THE EXPLANATION IS REQUIRED.."

 

26. Have you ever been convicted of, or entered a plea of guilty, nolo contendere, or no contest to a

crime in any jurisdiction other than a minor traffic offense? You must include all misdemeanors and

felonies, even if the court withheld adjudication so that you would not have a record of conviction.

Driving under the influence or driving while impaired is not a minor traffic offense for purposes of this

question.

YES NO

27. Have you been convicted of, or entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendre to, regardless of

adjudication, a felony under Chapter 409, Chapter 817, or Chapter 893, Florida Statutes; or 21 U.S.C.

ss. 801-970 or 42 U.S.C. ss. 1395-1396? (If no, do not answer 28.)

YES NO

28. Has it been more than 15 years prior to the date of this application since the sentence and

completion of any subsequent period of probation for each such conviction? YES NO

29. Have you ever been terminated for cause from the Florida Medicaid Program pursuant to Section

409.913, Florida Statutes? (If no, do not answer 30.). YES NO

30. If you have been terminated but reinstated, have you been in good standing with the Florida

Medicaid Program for the most recent five years? YES NO

31. Have you ever been terminated for cause, pursuant to the appeals procedures established by the

state or federal government, from any other state Medicaid program or the federal Medicare program?

(If no, do not answer 32 and 33)

YES NO

32. Have you been in good standing with a state Medicaid program or the federal Medicare program

for the most recent five years? YES NO

33. Did the termination occur at least 20 years prior to the date of this application? YES NO

34. Have any civil judgments ever been entered against you?. YES NO

35. Have you ever been named in a lawsuit for malpractice or has any settlement or claim been paid on

your behalf in relation to a claim of malpractice? YES NO

36. Have you ever discontinued practice for any reason for a period of one month or longer? YES NO

37. Have you ever had employment terminated for cause? YES NO

38. In the last five years, have you been enrolled in, required to enter into, or participated in any drug

or alcohol recovery program or impaired practitioner program for treatment of drug or alcohol abuse

that occurred within the past five years?

YES NO

39. In the last five years, have you been admitted or referred to a hospital, facility or impaired

practitioner program for treatment of a diagnosed mental disorder or impairment? YES NO

40. During the last five years, have you been treated for or had a recurrence of a diagnosed mental

disorder that has impaired your ability to practice medicine within the past five years? YES NO

41. In the last five years, have you been treated for or had a recurrence of a diagnosed physical

disorder that has impaired your ability to practice medicine? YES NO

42. In the last five years, were you admitted or directed into a program for the treatment of a diagnosed

substance-related (alcohol/drug) disorder or, if you were previously in such a program, did you suffer

a relapse within the last five years?

YES NO

43. During the last five years, have you been treated for or had a recurrence of a diagnosed substancerelated

(alcohol/drug) disorder that has impaired your ability to practice medicine within the last five

years?

YES NO

44. Have you had any felony convictions? YES NO

45. Have you had any license revoked or denied? YES

[CAdamsPAC]

Hello all,

 

I am looking for some positive and straight forward input. Here is my situation:

 

In 2007 I was arrested and charged with DWI in NC (I am assuming it is a misdemeanor charge since I am not a repeat offender and I did not kill anyone). I was under 21 at the time. The charge was later dismissed. I am in the process of getting it expunged now. When schools ask if I have been arrested or convicted of a crime, am I obligated to tell them about the arrest for DWI even though it is expunged?

 

Also, I was then suspended from my university a year later for having three underage drinking tickets. I went to therapy to address allot of my issues, and I now have a new lease on life. I have not had any arrests/charges since the dismissed DWI. I have allot of remorse for my poor decisions in the past, but I also think I learned allot from them. My grades also became better after therapy and everything. I am just wondering if anyone has had success gaining admission to a Masters program with a suspension on their record, and/or arrest for DWI. Do ya'll think my efforts toward becoming a PA are hopeless? Any advice is welcome.

 

Thank you in advance for your opinions and comments.

 

No self discipline???Questionable judgement? Sounds like you don't really need to a PA or any profession where people'sa lives are in your hands. Just my $.02 worth.

[Just Steve]

C

First I wanted to thank all for the positive and helpful responses. As I am sure you all know, applying to PA school is stressful in and of itself, so with my past in mind, I am aggressive seeking the best way to be honest and truthful in my attempts to develop myself professionally. I have a great lawyer that is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to DWI and expungements. In response to GScott and others, I think I will take your advice in asking my lawyer if this information must be disclosed. The charge was totally dismissed. I did not plead guilty or no contest to a lesser charge.

 

In response to Just Steve, I have never heard of rehab programs designed for medical professionals. Do you think this is something that I should enroll myself in before applying to school? or would this path be taken before applying for certification?

Since I have a very microscopic understanding of your full story and of the standards set forth by your desired profession I would not make the endorsement of attending such a program. That is why there are lawyers and board members. They make those decisions.

 

The one person I personally know that is attending one was given a grant to cover the 35,000 dollar cost by the VA.. They linked it to PTSD. Your situation is complex and has a financial burden that can extend for tens of thousands of dollars. Talk to the state PA organization and the AAPA as well as a lawyer that knows the nuances of health care provider background checks. I feel full discloser is the only option. It shows maturity and ownership of your error. Trying to hide it will only haunt you.

 

I worked with a paramedic who did several jail terms for dealing and using crack before he embarked on his current path. He gets tested frequently and has the eagle eye on him but he has full scope of practice. My point? Things are not impossible.

[Hoosier1]

No self discipline???Questionable judgement? Sounds like you don't really need to a PA or any profession where people'sa lives are in your hands. Just my $.02 worth.

 

A bit harsh especially considering you don't know the circumstances surrounding any of this. Plenty of doctors and other health professionals have histories of substance abuse and go on to have successful careers after receiving treatment.

 

Tmr4869,

 

If you were never found or pled guilty then you should be able to answer 'No' to that question, even without the expungement. I had a misdemeanor from 20 years ago recently expunged and my paper work said I could legally answer no but to be aware it could still show up depending on who was doing the check.

[IdahoPA]

Beyond what everyone else has said, I would just recommend having a solid app. Call it harsh if you want to, but my thoughts align with CAdams'. Four separate legal incidents means you were caught four times, not that you were guilty only four. I think it definitely shows a huge lack in judgement to even be drinking after a DWI, esp an underaged one. (Debate on alcoholism as a disease aside, please.) There are many, many applicants out there with good stats who have a clean record. If the choice were mine to make, that probably wouldn't be a tough call. Granted, people do change, but your app had better reflect that.

 

Good luck.

Also, *a lot.

Also also, if your charge is "in the process of being expunged" it isn't technically gone yet. So yes, I'd say you have to admit to the arrest.

[winterallsummer]

Really, who are you all to judge him for his past? Are all of you perfect saints who never made a bad decision or came across a bad time? Has no one in this thread every driven above the legal limit or drank while under the age of 21? Seriously, the point is to be helpful - he is being open and honest and asking for advice. Get over yourselves.

[Just Steve]

Really, who are you all to judge him for his past? Are all of you perfect saints who never made a bad decision or came across a bad time? Has no one in this thread every driven above the legal limit or drank while under the age of 21? Seriously, the point is to be helpful - he is being open and honest and asking for advice. Get over yourselves.

 

Easy now...slow down. I think we are trying to give advice. There was one comment that probably was not constructive in a manner the OP was looking for, but that's the flow of public forums..there are always posts like that. CAdams may not be the most soft and furry person to ever post on a forum, but he is consistent in his manner of posting. Read back through his former posts and you'll see his trend.

 

The tone of your post is one of "blowing up". That doesn't lend itself to being helpful either. Your argument of "who hasn't sped or drank underage" is a smoke screen. Sure, we have all had our faults but the vast majority of us have limited those faults to not result in legal or civil actions. To make the assumption the OP only got caught on the very times that they drank is a wild assumption.

 

You can't truly expect the community to give him one big hug and a boost up because he/she realized the error of their ways. There are many in this community who have seen substance abuse/dependency go into "remission" for years after a person has found a "new lease on life" then have an acute exacerbation down the line. In the grand scale of recovery...a couple of years is a great beginning...but it's not proof positive that everything is in the past.

 

I hope the OP gets the advice of the legal experts and the support from those who matter most...those close to them personally. Airing dirty laundry on a public forum comes with inherent risks. Being chastised by some other unknown keyboard hack is one of them. Just let it roll off your back.

[HopefulPA]

1. In many states it is illegal to ask about arrest record, only convictions.

2. PA school will do a background check, if you were convicted then no use hidding it.

3. In Michigan, the iniatial license requires you send fingerprints and a full background check. Each time your renew your license(or DEA#) they ask about convictions. Plus if I was convicted of a DUI as a current PA-C the state could revoke my license. ( I don't think it happens often but it is within their power). So there may be states out there that would not approve an initial license with a DUI conviction then you would have to move to another state.

[CAdamsPAC]

A bit harsh especially considering you don't know the circumstances surrounding any of this. Plenty of doctors and other health professionals have histories of substance abuse and go on to have successful careers after receiving treatment.

 

Tmr4869,

 

If you were never found or pled guilty then you should be able to answer 'No' to that question, even without the expungement. I had a misdemeanor from 20 years ago recently expunged and my paper work said I could legally answer no but to be aware it could still show up depending on who was doing the check.

I do believe the OP ASKED for straight input on his circumstances.

 

Life is harsh! People put their lives into our hands and there must be an unspoken bond of trust. This person's own acknowledgement of poor judgement and misconduct brings a serious question of his suitability to be handed that trust. I apply this standard to ANY practitioner with a history of substance abuse/misuse.We're discussing a pattern , not a single mistep.

 

BTW when I was 21 the drinking age was 18....so imagine being 18-19 years old guy stationed in San Francisco in the early 70's. He** yes, I drank and partied a lot, but I never got myself arrested for any alcohol related behavior, to include the subsequent 3 years I spent in Germany drinking a lot of good beer and wine. Judgement and insight personal responsibility are what I expect from my peers and those seeking to join the profession. The OP seems to be bent on masking his past misdeeds and to be put on a par with other applicants who have maintained a level of behavior and conduct expected of a professional.

[tmr4869]

CAdamsPAC, I found your comments to be unhelpful in that they lack constructive advice. But, I do thank you for your interest in the topic. Also, I wanted to reiterate that I have no intent to mask my past if doing so would be unethical.

 

To all others: Thank you very much for your responses to the post. I have gained the perspective I was looking for. I am enjoying my current shadowing experiences and my application is nearly complete! I hope I will be posting in the PA student forum soon :) Thanks again y'all!

[LESH]

Depending upon the program there can be multiple times a student needs to undergo background checks. Some programs do it admissions. I think all programs do it at least once during the clinical year. If a student rotates at a federal or state facility a background check is usually required. Some of the clinical rotations (like peds) may require background checks. The NCCPA will do a background check is they have an indication. As mentioned everyone gets one for a license and DEA. I have seen applicants get in with DUI convictions and have minimal or no issues. I have also seen other applicants have issues getting to take the PANCE and getting a license. Each situation is dealt with on a case by case basis.

[CAdamsPAC]

CAdamsPAC, I found your comments to be unhelpful in that they lack constructive advice. But, I do thank you for your interest in the topic. Also, I wanted to reiterate that I have no intent to mask my past if doing so would be unethical.

 

To all others: Thank you very much for your responses to the post. I have gained the perspective I was looking for. I am enjoying my current shadowing experiences and my application is nearly complete! I hope I will be posting in the PA student forum soon :) Thanks again y'all!

 

 

"I am looking for some positive and straight forward input. " = Yeah, right make me feel good about my checked past involving alcohol!

 

Your past behaviors and GROSS inability to comply with established standards coupled with the inability to accept the results of YOUR behaviors make you a no-go IMHO.Your attitude towards those who won't give you some warm and fuzzy feel good comments on your past misdeeds, amplify my conviction that you ARE NOT suitable to become a PA! I hope that one day YOU WILL realize your problems are of your own making. There are thousands of PA aspirants with CLEAN records and the demonstrated ability to comply with laws and standards of conduct expected of a health care professional, which by your own admission ,you haven't. Again good luck in another profession. Merry Christmas Pal!!!!

[Natacha]

TMR: I actually just met someone today who works in a treatment facility for professionals dealing with substance abuse. He also mentioned a program called PRN that works closely with their program and has a special relationship with medical/attorney boards. I think you should look into something like this in your area and get some advice from them in addition to your lawyer. Since it seems you are on the wagon and focused now, you should try volunteering with them. I think volunteering at a facility like this one would win you good points with the admissions committee. It will show them that you have grown from your experience and are now trying to help others that were once in your shoes. I think this would drive home the point that you are rehabilitated now and committed to being responsible and sober. And it would be a great community service experience to add to your app.

 

Here are some links for these programs:

 

http://www.prnforfamilies.com/index.html

http://psychiatry.ufl.edu/Patient-Care-Services/Addiction-Medicine/Treatment-Programs/Impaired-Professonals/index.shtml

 

Best of luck!

[Natacha]

CAdamsPAC: While you write your scornful remarks to the OP about how he is unfit (in your opinion) to be a PA, you should remember that as a PA you have to be compassionate and empathetic to others. Nor can you possibly know the full extent of his situation in order to place judgement.

 

I guess you are the type of PA that tells your patient with cirrhosis that his problems are of his own doing?! Shame on you.

[CAdamsPAC]

CAdamsPAC: While you write your scornful remarks to the OP about how he is unfit (in your opinion) to be a PA, you should remember that as a PA you have to be compassionate and empathetic to others. Nor can you possibly know the full extent of his situation in order to place judgement.

 

I guess you are the type of PA that tells your patient with cirrhosis that his problems are of his own doing?! Shame on you.

 

My opinion is based on the OP's OWN words which related HIS behaviors and non compliance with both legal and institutional rules on multiple occasions. Compassion and empathy do not equal being Pollyanna in ones views. Could you please explain your in depth knowledge of the OP's life circumstances? Which type of cirrhosis are you speaking of???? It's sad that you think everyone should have the same opinion on a particular subject. I guess you are the kind of PA(I suspect that you are not a PA) who will accept something or some one's behavior that do not meet your standards of personal conduct,to avoid hurting their feelings. After 25 years of PA practice and 40 years of patient care ranging from First Aid Station to the ICU of a Medical Center I think I have a good idea of what a good PA candidate is and the type of person I would trust caring for me or my family or friends. No, it's shame on you.