Oversaturation is nursing - what about PA?

[ankylosaurus]

Hello everyone!

 

Based on browsing allnurses.com and anecdotal experiences from acquaintances, it seems like there is currently an over-saturation in the nursing field: not only are new nurses having difficulty finding jobs, but even some experienced nurses seem to be having trouble obtaining work.

 

I realize our economy isn't in the best shape, so things will likely improve in the future for nurses.

 

But I was curious - based on your experiences and your co-workers, do you know if the same situation is occurring to PAs? Currently, are new PAs having trouble getting jobs?

 

And if PAs aren't having trouble - why is that? Is the demand for PAs currently greater? From what I understand, even a lot of NPs are having trouble finding jobs.

 

Thanks in advance! :smile:

[Craigk]

One thing you have to consider with nursing school is the ABUNDANCE of programs in most areas. I went to nursing school in Chattanooga Tn and in the greater Chattanooga area (including NW Georgia, NE Alabama) there are 8-9 nursing programs to serve I think 10 hospitals in the area and its been 8 years since I lived/worked there so who knows now how many nurses are coming out every 6-12 months now. When the economy tanked a lot of adult students poured into nursing programs because it is/was guaranteed work but now with the saturation it's not so much of a sure thing. There are still nursing jobs and needs out there but some areas have been saturated by new grads so the market is tight. But you will never hear that from the nursing academic world. Now as far as the PA job outlook, I know here in the central valley of CA it doesn't seem to be an issue and I hope it stays that way for at least another 1 1/2 yrs lol, not being selfish or anything...I don't really see any shortage of jobs here tho but can't speak for other regions.

[bradtPA]

PAs are not nurses. You are comparing nurses to PAs, its like comparing an orange to a banana. there are millions of nurses, there are 88,000 PAs. NPs versus PA is more appropriate to compare, BTW. We are employed based on our skills in clinical medicine. Since there is a shortage of primary care physicians, if you are willing to be a primary care PA, you will always have a job.

[Joelseff]

I think it depends on your area and how willing you are to "pimp" yourself out there (for lack of a better word) I had an offer during clinicals, then upon grad had 3 offers, narrowed it down to two and chose one. It also depends if you dont mind going to specialty medicine. In my area, PC providers are all going to IPA's like Kaiser and Sutter Foundation etc. These people tend to hire EXPERIENCED PA's and keep PA's in ED/FT/Urgent Care or surgery. Finding a solo or independent practice in IM/FP is hard. Also they tend to pay less. I found a IM job, a GI/Hep job and my current job in Physiatry. I sent out 7-10 CV's a week for 3 weeks and sometimes more than once to the same office LOL. Just to give you an example. Again this is MY experience, so YMMV. BTW some of my classmates found great ED jobs with CEP.

[ankylosaurus]

Thanks for your replies everyone. :)

 

And yes, I'm aware nurses and PAs are on a completely different level. However I've also heard of a few NPs these days having difficulty finding work. But hopefully, things will improve!

 

Also, while I don't think anyone goes into PA school expecting job offers left and right, I admit it - I am afraid/paranoid that in the future, over-saturation of the PA field is possible. First, because a lot of NPs can do the work that PAs do, and there's a fair amount of NPs already and the numbers are growing. Second, because PA is becoming a popular field to go into, schools might respond by opening more PA schools than needed.

And finally, because it looks like tons of medical fields are already over-saturated or predicted to become so (pharmacy and optometry being among them).

 

I've decided I'm much more interested in PA than any other health field including MD, but I figure it's good to think about these things before investing a good chunk of tuition+time.

[SocialMedicine]

I have found NP and RN having a hard time finding work in NYC. I am policy/economy ignorant for the most part ... but I think much of this difficulty has to do with hiring freezes in hospitals secondary to budget crisis. I rarely hear an RN say "we are fully staffed". Hah but maybe you can never be fully staffed in nursing because it is such a busy field :shrug:

[physasst]

This is not true nationally. We actually have a looming nursing shortage on a national scale.

While there may be local market saturations, current projections indicate a shortage of 250,000 nurses by 2025.

 

There are currently 3.06 million nurses in the US, with 84.4% actually working.

 

We may see local pockets of saturation with the PA profession as well. This would only indicate that people might need to be more open to relocation, as a redistribution of resources would indicate the market settling itself out....

 

The biggest problem in nursing right now, is a HUGE faculty shortage. Which is only going to become worse, and may make the 250,000 projection worse, as this is not factored into the current model.

 

PA's and NP's face a robust future. With projected hours cuts for residents, as well as other things like ACO's and payment reform in the very near horizon, there will likely be a boom. Unfortunately, we don't produce enough of either. NP's have been stagnant at roughly 7000 graduates since 1998, and PA's have increased to just over 6500.

 

If we play around with various team models (a large part of my research), we find that the average FM physician sees 2498 patients per panel. One consideration would be to deploy a clinic around 4 non physician providers, and one physician. At a cost of 3 physician FTE, they could likely see, if my model is correct, the same workload as 4 physicians, while decreasing the number of visits daily, and increasing the amount of time spent per visit.

 

Anyway....just spitballing..lots of thoughts.

[coloradopa]

This is not true nationally. We actually have a looming nursing shortage on a national scale.

While there may be local market saturations, current projections indicate a shortage of 250,000 nurses by 2025.

 

There are currently 3.06 million nurses in the US, with 84.4% actually working.

 

We may see local pockets of saturation with the PA profession as well. This would only indicate that people might need to be more open to relocation, as a redistribution of resources would indicate the market settling itself out....

 

The biggest problem in nursing right now, is a HUGE faculty shortage. Which is only going to become worse, and may make the 250,000 projection worse, as this is not factored into the current model.

 

PA's and NP's face a robust future. With projected hours cuts for residents, as well as other things like ACO's and payment reform in the very near horizon, there will likely be a boom. Unfortunately, we don't produce enough of either. NP's have been stagnant at roughly 7000 graduates since 1998, and PA's have increased to just over 6500.

 

If we play around with various team models (a large part of my research), we find that the average FM physician sees 2498 patients per panel. One consideration would be to deploy a clinic around 4 non physician providers, and one physician. At a cost of 3 physician FTE, they could likely see, if my model is correct, the same workload as 4 physicians, while decreasing the number of visits daily, and increasing the amount of time spent per visit.

 

Anyway....just spitballing..lots of thoughts.

Anectdotally the situation with PAs is a lot like the situation with nursing. There is no actual nursing shortage. Instead it is a lack of nurses willing to work in nursing with the current salaries/working conditions combined with regional mal-distribution. Two issues with the survey. One is that it only list nurses that were actively licensed in the US in 2008. Those nurses that have left the profession are no longer counted. Thats another estimated 1 million or more nurses The other part missing from the number of nurses is that 63% work full time. The total FTEs are much less than listed. Also look at the comments in appendix B. Younger nurses are considerably undercounted and are probably unemployed at a much higher rate than indicated (remembering this was done before the economy froze up).

 

There are plenty of PA jobs out there. I get contacted 2-3 times a month. The issue is that there are not a lot of new grad jobs in major metropolitan areas. Once a PA gets 2-3 years of experience it becomes relatively easy to move around. Its roughly the same with nursing. In major metropolitan areas nursing jobs are becoming more plentiful. Nursing jobs for new grads are not.

 

Looking at PA employment I agree that employment is bright. Academic medical centers are hiring PAs around here in droves. They are more likely to hire new grads if they have an established group that can train. With the limits on residents and especially on interns there are a lot of academic centers that are adding PAs to their resident work force.

[convulsed]

NEW GRAD PA or even Green PA's like myself (2 years) have a hard time finding a job in NYC. I was told by a medical recruiter that:

 

A) Your school name-Hospital Affiliation MATTERS ( So Cornell/Duke vs. "Community College PA program")

B) Many hospitals have alumnis of a particular program that are in positions to sway who the MD picks from the pile of candidates given by HR.

C) HOSPITAL JOBS in NYC ALMOST 99.99 % of them don't take new grads if you don't have A) or B) in your back pocket. (Based on my experience)

D) Factor in the hospital closings (St. Vincent) , the PA's from that hospital that will have a lot more experience gets picked up first.

 

Leading us green/new pa grads to pick up "mom and pops" clinic style medicine. The recruiter also stated that in the past PA's picked their jobs, now the HR does and partially it's the economy and also the location. I think 10% of all PA's are in NY? If not I'm sure it's still close to that range.. So in terms of option, I learn that you either got to know someone or .....take what you can.

[ankylosaurus]

Thanks for your replies everyone!

 

NEW GRAD PA or even Green PA's like myself (2 years) have a hard time finding a job in NYC. I was told by a medical recruiter that:

 

A) Your school name-Hospital Affiliation MATTERS ( So Cornell/Duke vs. "Community College PA program")

B) Many hospitals have alumnis of a particular program that are in positions to sway who the MD picks from the pile of candidates given by HR.

C) HOSPITAL JOBS in NYC ALMOST 99.99 % of them don't take new grads if you don't have A) or B) in your back pocket. (Based on my experience)

D) Factor in the hospital closings (St. Vincent) , the PA's from that hospital that will have a lot more experience gets picked up first.

 

Leading us green/new pa grads to pick up "mom and pops" clinic style medicine. The recruiter also stated that in the past PA's picked their jobs, now the HR does and partially it's the economy and also the location. I think 10% of all PA's are in NY? If not I'm sure it's still close to that range.. So in terms of option, I learn that you either got to know someone or .....take what you can.

 

I'm guessing you live in NYC and are only aware of how it works there, but do you (or anyone else) know how it is in other cities?

 

Obviously in rural areas I'm sure PAs would have an easier time finding a solid gig.

 

But what about the "smaller" cities like Portland, OR, or Minneapolis, or even Seattle, WA?