Are online didactic schools good for our profession?

[jwallac4]

I was surprised to see that there are online PA programs. What do you feel Doctors would say about this? Does this hurt our profession? Is the PANCE too easy (in that you don't need instructor level education to pass it)? I cannot imagine having an open book exam at my school. They have several people watch us like hawks when we take exams. I am not completely sold against the idea. Just a little skeptical.

[jwallac4]

I believe there are few. The one I know of is University of North Dakota. Their website states they do all didactic tests online and courses. Not sure of any others.

[acozadd]

Ask any doctor questioning it how many lectures they attended while in medical school. Coming from a PA program associated with a med school that took several classes with med students, if they had a 20% attendance rate I would be impressed. Sometimes there were literally less than 10 of their 220+ students present for lectures.

[acozadd]

From what I could glean, everyone does a bunch of online work, but the students have significant medical background.... Even lpn isn't considered adequate. Sounds like they are the real deal, even among the heavyweights.

 

I think the assumption that a certain medical background will allow one to become an adequate provider with only an online program is almost scarier than the online program itself.

[armymommax2]

I think the assumption that a certain medical background will allow one to become an adequate provider with only an online program is almost scarier than the online program itself.

 

I have been a Respiratory Therapist for 20 years. All with HAND ON experience. I have been admitted to the UND-PA program, and I am proud to say it was my first choice. FIRST, because I do live in a rural portion of the United States, I would have had to move where ever I had been accepted. (All three programs I applied accepted me) I feel I will obtain a perfectly wonderful education, and being allowed to do my clinical rotations in my home town and my home state is something I am grateful for. Education is what one makes of it. Whether a student is being spoon fed while sitting in front of a professor or sitting at a computer screen. Don't let "online" education fool you. There are no study groups, no one to drag you through it but yourself.

 

I shadowed and worked beside PAs who have graduated out of the nations top programs. If anyone would have snubbed their nose, or wanted to direct me in a different direction, they could have. What I heard was "YOU" will get one hell of an education, no matter WHERE you are going....because YOU want to learn." So....I will let you know May 2014, after I pass my PANCE how my education was at UND. I am proud to have the opportunity to be chosen for their program. The PAs here believe in See one, DO one, Teach one.....I assure you I will be MORE than an adequate provider. I have already had more than a few job offers.

[Just Steve]

I think the assumption that a certain medical background will allow one to become an adequate provider with only an online program is almost scarier than the online program itself.

 

Huh? Not sure I'm tracking...are you not in support of an online program at all or don't agree with restricting the applicants to a few background generes only?

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Having seen the perils of online education in NP school, i know it is a slippery slope. It becomes too easy to say "hey, we can have one teacher for 100 students if we want!" Then, they stop making good questions that prevent you from cheating but still understand the material because who has time when you're fielding questions from hundreds of students in different classes. Instead, they make it a memorization game. A test covers 6 chapters and the question is fill in the blank of one tiny obscure sentence. Sure, you don't have time to look it up and cheat, but did you even really learn anything if you got it right. Besides, I knew people that just got the book put into a PDF format and would use ctrl + F to find the answer.

 

Now there is nothing wrong with online education (UND sounds like a fine institution), but it's what it can lead to. A good analogy is a person thinking "why carry groceries when I can put them in a cart. Why push a cart when I can ride a scooter?" one is practical and prudent. The latter is laziness and follows the former.

 

If there is going to be online programs, there must be very strict regulation and accreditation standards IMO. Program directors are usually good people who want what's best. University administration often just like the dollar signs and will pressure programs to do things they shouldn't.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I have been a Respiratory Therapist for 20 years. All with HAND ON experience. I have been admitted to the UND-PA program, and I am proud to say it was my first choice. FIRST, because I do live in a rural portion of the United States, I would have had to move where ever I had been accepted. (All three programs I applied accepted me) I feel I will obtain a perfectly wonderful education, and being allowed to do my clinical rotations in my home town and my home state is something I am grateful for. Education is what one makes of it. Whether a student is being spoon fed while sitting in front of a professor or sitting at a computer screen. Don't let "online" education fool you. There are no study groups, no one to drag you through it but yourself.

 

I shadowed and worked beside PAs who have graduated out of the nations top programs. If anyone would have snubbed their nose, or wanted to direct me in a different direction, they could have. What I heard was "YOU" will get one hell of an education, no matter WHERE you are going....because YOU want to learn." So....I will let you know May 2014, after I pass my PANCE how my education was at UND. I am proud to have the opportunity to be chosen for their program. The PAs here believe in See one, DO one, Teach one.....I assure you I will be MORE than an adequate provider. I have already had more than a few job offers.

 

Going to tear your rotator cuff patting yourself on the back that hard.

[Beorp]

Just to add another school to consider, the University of Toronto (one of Canada's first civilian PA programs) has set up their program so that it is largely online with a few residential blocks: http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/healthscience/PAEducation/About_the_program.htm

[jwallac4]

Thanks! I don't think that Canada matters as much as U.S. schools. The only reason I say that is other countries are going to go their own way and our associations will have no effect on them. Example is that european medical students start right out of high school do six years and are practicing (specialty dependent). My cousin who is Danish was a practicing MD (family practice) at 25 years old (my mom is Danish). That seems very young for an MD in the states.

[armymommax2]

Going to tear your rotator cuff patting yourself on the back that hard.

 

Classic. Again, an education is what one makes of it. However disregarded by others who feel the need to kick around the design of PA programs; perhaps to make themselves feel better is the last thing I would have ever thought I would see in a forum set up to help promote and encourage this profession. Have you ever investigated the UND program? If one can only obtain an sub-par education, why is it still in existence?

What I do know, is is will not matter the school name on my diploma. What will matter is the PA-C after my name, and the good work I intend to do in my community. Scoff, make fun, down, and slam the educational programs offered for those of us working toward our goal....No matter to me. I start the journey of my life in May, and I promise my NEW profession to work as hard as I have in my last profession; to be the best, and to provide good solid health care to those in my care. ( Wow...I CAN reach that far to pat myself on the back....no surgery needed) ;)

[Just Steve]

Ever engage in cyber sex? Was it as fulfilling and satisfying as live contact with a real partner?

 

There are nuances in human contact, even through plain boring straight lecture via PowerPoint that fills a component of education that are subtle and easily overlooked but they do exist. Plus, as I sit here and reflect back through the last two terms of my didactic year I can draw upon dozens of educational experiences that were not in the classroom yet related directly to school.

 

As a student with my 20 plus years of direct patient care, do I think I can get through the written material and pass an online exam? Yes. Do I think the quality of that experience is worth nearly as much as a brick/ mortar experience? No.

 

I totally agree with the benefits of training local folks to fill local demands. I am not aware of a better example of that than MEDEX with four campuses. One inner city and three in remote locations. They heavily favor local applicants and seek previously experienced students, much like the UND program. It is my opinion that the quality of face to face education, especially based in an accelerated program as PA is crucial. Not only to educate the student but to also evaluate the student as a provider. Can a virtual professor give an accurate recommendation of a student? That is saying that after I read all your posts on this site, I have a fair opinion of who you are.

 

The argument that med students get to skip class is flawed as they have a much longer and arduous resident program where they have to show up and perform in order to advance.

 

UND may care very deeply about the quality of provider that they graduate. But what stops a less scrupulous school from using an online program as a cash cow and just teach to the test to ensure a good pass rate for the PANCE? The ARC? Any sheister worth their grease can manipulate paperwork to satisfy an accreditation panel. There is millions of dollars on the table when it comes to PA education. MEDEX class of 2013 has about 100 students. The masters program costs 68,000 and their BCHS runs 50,000. Split the class 50/50 and that results in revenue of 3.4 million dollars and 2.5 million dollars. I can't be convinced that less scrupulous programs won't try to tap into that revenue generating ability. We already see it with brick/mortar programs. Allowing online programs will just accelerate they decline.

 

In addition, I think the student experience of leaving the comfort of one's home and going through some stressors builds valuable life experience that helps the provider relate better to their patients.

[armymommax2]

I cannot disagree with you on the fact there may be others who could and will take advantage of cyber education. (cyber sex, I know nothing about) The UND program is not for everyone, and is not everyone's cup of tea. It has however stood the test of time. It certainly is not the last ranked school in the country either. I also feel there are those younger than I who need to be away from home to build the life experience needed to handle overall stress. At 48, you will be hard pressed to find stressors I have not encountered.

 

After leaving one profession with the pure intent to obtain a higher education in another was not an easy decision, and being the "more mature" undergrad was humbling. Be that as it may, I am proud to continue the path I have chosen in obtaining my PA education at UND. I am certain I will miss out on aspects which you point out. Will that make me less of a PA? I don't feel it will because I know my drive and determination to be the best.

 

I guess I have more faith in those who are educating me, and those who will educate me through my clinicals. I am thrilled to be allowed a chance to build upon my RT career. Others opinion of the program is just that....their opinion. I do respect what has been said, but not with the indigence of the tone. Maybe it is the "Fighting Sioux" starting to come out in me. Maybe I felt the catty comments would be left behind the higher ones education became. It is what it is, I suppose...

 

Best of luck everyone...in school, career, and life. ....Either way...I am ready for this journey to begin..:)

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Classic. Again, an education is what one makes of it. However disregarded by others who feel the need to kick around the design of PA programs; perhaps to make themselves feel better is the last thing I would have ever thought I would see in a forum set up to help promote and encourage this profession. Have you ever investigated the UND program? If one can only obtain an sub-par education, why is it still in existence?

What I do know, is is will not matter the school name on my diploma. What will matter is the PA-C after my name, and the good work I intend to do in my community. Scoff, make fun, down, and slam the educational programs offered for those of us working toward our goal....No matter to me. I start the journey of my life in May, and I promise my NEW profession to work as hard as I have in my last profession; to be the best, and to provide good solid health care to those in my care. ( Wow...I CAN reach that far to pat myself on the back....no surgery needed) ;)

 

You seem to be confusing my jest with my opinion of online education. To summarize my post, I think their is nothing wrong with it and UND seems like a fine program. I'm sure you will do well. My only other point was that they need to be highly regulated. While UND likely has enough integrity to prevent itself slipping down the slope, others may not.

[crystaltide]

If there is online proctoring for the online didactic exams, then I see no reason why there shouldn't be a few select online didactic programs. They should each have a clear mission, as the few that I've heard of (UW and UND) do. I'm not sure if the PAEA puts any kind of restriction on those particular programs (requiring them to have online proctoring of exams, for example); if they don't, I think they should in order to prevent the types of programs that would do it purely for profit.

[Just Steve]

As a recipient of telecommunication classes, on line classes, and in person classes, I feel that yes, those students who don't get to attend a program in the flesh are missing out. Y'all can take that blanket statement and shred it, spread it about, set on fire or whatever, but that is just my opinion. I do not portray my view as any sort of truism. It is my opinion. The OP asked for an opinion, so I gave it. I do not infer that the location of training has any bearing of the eventual practice location, but rather that you can place brick/mortar schools in rural locations and have great success. On line is not the only solution in training and attempting to retain students located in rural places.

 

Absorbing information in the static form from a book or computer screen will get you through an exam. I do not contend that at all. My classmates and I often refer to PA school as the "most expensive self study program that you'll ever do". What I see the online student missing out on are the interactions that we have among classmates (read: team building and communication skill development), the early live patient interactions (week 2 of didactic year had us in retirement homes seeing patients) and we have continued that interaction with paid actors and each other. Our problem based learning events further cement the development of group interaction based around a medical condition, which will parlay to clinical practice. Our lecturers have brought in peers to hold mock intake interviews for topics around behavioral medicine. The nuances of voice tone, body language, eye contact which are critical in behavioral medicine, are all lost via the limited dimensions of video. We are currently rotating to the local community in various clinics during our didactic year to further enforce the behavioral medicine education (80% of primary care patients have shown to have mental/emotional health needs). Next week we all do a week of shadowing in various clinics all around the greater Northwest region.

 

Some key aspects of practicing medicine is the ability to sit down in a clinic office, create an atmosphere of trust, non judgement, confidentiality, and concern. This encourages the patient to be open and forthcoming with their true concerns which in turn enables the provider to give a more beneficial treatment plan. I assert that these skills cannot be learned through a computer.

 

UND has high standards for who gets into their program. They require job experience in areas that have the practitioner highly engaged in face to face communication with their patients BEFORE they ever apply. I applaud their due diligence as they recognize that personal interactions are something that they cannot teach on line. My concern is not about their program. My concern lies in the general overall allowance of on line programs.

 

The beginning of the PA program began with a very tight restriction of eligible students. Through time, we have seen a degradation of pre reqs that now allow a person with no health care experience to transition into the PA field. I see this as a step back. It is a key component of why we are seeing degree creep...mandatory Masters, which in turn, effectively cuts off the VERY person that the PA program was installed for, the military medical professional. The young person who decides to serve their country as an enlisted person, gathering TONS of brilliant experience and education will be forced to further delay their route to PA to go gather a bachelors, a collection of classes that have so very little to do with the delivery of effective, efficient medical care.

 

If on line programs are allowed to spread across the nation at the same rate, with the same requirements that brick/mortar schools are popping up, the anti PA lobbyists can point at our profession and rightfully laugh.

 

Again...just one opinion.

[edwardcarter]

which school are you thinking of? How many are there?

That's the one I'm thinking of too. I don't think they have a ton of seats for it, and I think you have to qualify.

[acozadd]

Huh? Not sure I'm tracking...are you not in support of an online program at all or don't agree with restricting the applicants to a few background generes only?

 

Not a huge fan of online programs, there is far too much in person stuff that needs to be done. My program had so many simulated patient encounters, simulation labs, cadaver labs, etc. that just cannot be done online. I'm not completely opposed to having some aspects online, but believe all testing must be done in person-- as was the purpose of my first post stating that no med students ever come to lecture (but do come to exams/scheduled labs).

 

And as always, I dont feel as though someone with great past work experience is any more ready to go in the sense that they could get by with only an online program. Having worked with many people in these "high up" positions, the knowledge base couldnt be any more variable. I was just with a nurse in an NP program that just started clinicals and despite 15+ years of experience as a nurse, she was beyond clueless as to even the management of even the most basic conditions. As we all know, nursing is one of the holy trinity on these boards for past medical experience...

[Guest hubbardtim48]

Having joined the UND class of 2014 I can say that I am happy with UND. Something should click in your head that UND has been around since the early 1970s and never has lost accrediation in those 40 years. The structure of the program is PROCTORED exams in basic sceinces and each student makes 5 trips up to North Dakota for lectures/testing/labs/seminars/etc. (duration from 3-5 weeks at a time) for a total of 15 weeks of campus time and the other time is more online classes with clinical roatitions in our home towns and other areas. So, no I do not think that online classes take away from the “real world college experience” because I have done both. I got my B.S. in Respriatory Therapy, Minor in Chemistry, Minor in Cell and Molecular Biology and an ONLINE Masters in Health Science (with EXAMS). I think both degrees were awesome and offer their unique style of learning. I believe it takes a MATURE person to do online classes and not have to have a professor (aka MOMMY) to hold your hand and guide you to your seat. My HCE is 5 years as a registered respiratory therapist in a level I trauma center, level III NICU, and burn center (which is St. Louis county biggest trauma center with a nationly ranked burn center and NICU). I have also worked other jobs while working here that taught me intubations, bronchoscopies, hyperbaric medicine, pulmonary function testing, asthma education, transports and non-conventional ventliation. I can interpret PFTs, ECGs, ABGs, x-rays/CTs (pulmonary only), certified asthma educator, can use VDR, APRV, Bi-vent, bi-level, duopap, conventional vents, PALS, ACLS, NRP, PEARS, and the list goes on. I have done a lot in my respiratory career and have had TWO published articles and one research study that was accepted to present as INBRE last year (Univ. of Arkansas) and have lots other “respiratory” training that I did not mention, but can say that having GOOD, QUALITY HCE does matter to UND and it shows that I am ready to PA school and can do a lot of things that PAs already can do. So, being a mature adult does matter to UND and their program has stood the test of time and has put out very good PAs due to their previous HCE.

 

 

</SPAN>

[acozadd]

Having joined the UND class of 2014 I can say that I am happy with UND. Something should click in your head that UND has been around since the early 1970s and never has lost accrediation in those 40 years. The structure of the program is PROCTORED exams in basic sceinces and each student makes 5 trips up to North Dakota for lectures/testing/labs/seminars/etc. (duration from 3-5 weeks at a time) for a total of 15 weeks of campus time and the other time is more online classes with clinical roatitions in our home towns and other areas. So, no I do not think that online classes take away from the “real world college experience” because I have done both. I got my B.S. in Respriatory Therapy, Minor in Chemistry, Minor in Cell and Molecular Biology and an ONLINE Masters in Health Science (with EXAMS). I think both degrees were awesome and offer their unique style of learning. I believe it takes a MATURE person to do online classes and not have to have a professor (aka MOMMY) to hold your hand and guide you to your seat. My HCE is 5 years as a registered respiratory therapist in a level I trauma center, level III NICU, and burn center (which is St. Louis county biggest trauma center with a nationly ranked burn center and NICU). I have also worked other jobs while working here that taught me intubations, bronchoscopies, hyperbaric medicine, pulmonary function testing, asthma education, transports and non-conventional ventliation. I can interpret PFTs, ECGs, ABGs, x-rays/CTs (pulmonary only), certified asthma educator, can use VDR, APRV, Bi-vent, bi-level, duopap, conventional vents, PALS, ACLS, NRP, PEARS, and the list goes on. I have done a lot in my respiratory career and have had TWO published articles and one research study that was accepted to present as INBRE last year (Univ. of Arkansas) and have lots other “respiratory” training that I did not mention, but can say that having GOOD, QUALITY HCE does matter to UND and it shows that I am ready to PA school and can do a lot of things that PAs already can do. So, being a mature adult does matter to UND and their program has stood the test of time and has put out very good PAs due to their previous HCE.

 

 

</SPAN>

 

That's all good and all, but aside from interpretting basic lab tests and films, none of that has been relevent in my PA school experience. PA and med students have not been allowed to intubate, and unless you do a rotation in an ICU somewhere, vent settings and whatnot are farily irrelevent. Your past medical experience is great-- if you go into pulmonology or acute care, but doesn't translate to the majority of specialties. Hence my knock on the whole prior healthcare experience arguments on these boards. For example, I am going into orthopedics-- how does all of what you listed above make me a better orthopedic PA out of school compared to someone with minimal HCE?

[Guest hubbardtim48]

Because you have a better understanding of respiratory/cardio and you treat the WHOLE person and not just as a LEG or SHOULDER. Also, x-rays, CTs are very important in orthopedics and PT, OT etc is important in the rehab process which is done and learned in RT school. So, you would prefer someone to know just the minimum about one's specialty and not know anything else about any other topic? That’s very scary to me and I would not like that person to be taking care of myself. You should known the whole body as well as you can so you can understand other labs results like they are the back of your hand. I will practice medicine more like a D.O. and look at everything going on with the patient even if I am a G.I. PA or ortho PA. The more you know the easier it is to pick up on other topics and the easier it is to connect the DOTS so you can understand the body. If you did not learn from undergrad., your body is a well oiled machine that functions together and not has separate parts. I am not sure where your thinking of knowing more is not better, but in my life and past HCE the more the better you are prepared for anything that could occur in the patient. I do plan on going into cardio./pulm./immuno./allergy./C.C. because I feel great in those situations and yes my background will allow me to be a better PA and swim laps around other PAs/NPs/physicians when it comes to abgs, vents, etc. Good luck on your minimalist approach. </SPAN>

[acozadd]

Because you have a better understanding of respiratory/cardio and you treat the WHOLE person and not just as a LEG or SHOULDER. Also, x-rays, CTs are very important in orthopedics and PT, OT etc is important in the rehab process which is done and learned in RT school. So, you would prefer someone to know just the minimum about one's specialty and not know anything else about any other topic? That’s very scary to me and I would not like that person to be taking care of myself. You should known the whole body as well as you can so you can understand other labs results like they are the back of your hand. I will practice medicine more like a D.O. and look at everything going on with the patient even if I am a G.I. PA or ortho PA. The more you know the easier it is to pick up on other topics and the easier it is to connect the DOTS so you can understand the body. If you did not learn from undergrad., your body is a well oiled machine that functions together and not has separate parts. I am not sure where your thinking of knowing more is not better, but in my life and past HCE the more the better you are prepared for anything that could occur in the patient. I do plan on going into cardio./pulm./immuno./allergy./C.C. because I feel great in those situations and yes my background will allow me to be a better PA and swim laps around other PAs/NPs/physicians when it comes to abgs, vents, etc. Good luck on your minimalist approach. </SPAN>

 

By no means an I a minimalist, far from it. Everyone leaving PA school should have a certain core knowledge of all body systems-- what you are describing is specific skills related to pulm that only a few specialties would use (bronchs in pulm, intubation in ED, etc.) I am just a realist and your skill set does little to prepare me for a career in orthopedics. Based on what you've mentioned, you cannot exam even the simplest of joint pathology/fractures, you don't know any of the procedures or first assist responsibilities, and you know nothing about the differential and management of specific processes related to ortho. You could take someone who did athletic training as an undergrad with no experience and they would be better suited for a career in ortho. THAT is my argument against all of this "RN/RT/medic= holy grail of past medical experience" talk that goes on around these boards.

**patiently waits for emed to arrive**

 

Obviously you cannot neglect any aspect of a patient's condition, but if you are in a specialty or subspecialty and plan on "treating the whole patient," be prepared to have many other specialties feel like you are stepping on their toes. If ortho started to manage vents and perform bronchs at a facility, I can guarentee that hell would be raised. That isn't conducive to good working relationships.

 

Lastly, I find it laughable that you think DO's look at everything going on with the patients... perhaps you are getting them confused with NPs :rolleyes: I went to a PA program associated with a DO program and they are no different than MDs except they are forced to learn OMM which nearly all say they will never use in clinical practice.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

Saying that online PA programs are not as good and that rn/rt/medic training does not really help in the real world is not true. We have years of good hands on experince and that is why we have mature minds where we do not need teachers holding our hands. I understand that an AT would be better at ortho than me, but UND is geared toward primary care (65% of grads are in primary care) so having a solid clinic background rn/rt/medic only helps you be a better PA. If you know you want to do ortho then be an AT. I could care less about what I know about ortho because I have not covered that yet, but when I do I will take that training where ever I practice. Yes, I agree that you could not and would not be allowed to run a vent. or broncho., but having a understanding of procedures like that do not hurt and only helps you while in PA school and post grad. For emergency medicine, I think basic skills such as being to understand an abg, x-ray, vent, knowing how to intubate will only help you in life. Saying that my school is inferior to yours because you want to do speciality is crazy. Look where are health care system is going and what PAs and NPs are here for. I care about helping pateints and educating them so they can maintain their life and not have to be seeing the "doctor" every month. I care about getting our country back to where it was and getting our citizens to understand about their health and knowing how to take care of their bodies. I understand that ortho is very important, but as a PA student, my goal is not money et first assist, my goal is to travel around the country and world helping people with their struggles (water, food, not educated, etc). I feel like I get more out of helping people in those situtations because I have done this as an RT and it feels GREAT! I just want you to think about how your making inferior comments to feel PA students/schools (UND been around since early 1970's and trains PAs as they were first trained). Look at the history of PAs and tell me how UND does not live up to how PAs were once trained. HCE was needed to be a PA and now you can have a B.S. or B.A. and be a tech. and get in. I dont know if you have HCE or not, but if you do then you would understand the improtance of having GOOD hands on patient care and knowing how to interact with patients, families, friends, other staff, etc. Its not just being able to interpet labs or intubate, but also knowing personal skills that will be with you forever. I have several friends in DO schools and have family freinds that are DOs and work with DOs that practice holistically, so I disagree with your last statement. Maybe it was just the few that you met or the part of the country. Who knows but if holistic is NP, DO, ND, DC what ever type of physician it is then I will practice that way because I believe that man made drugs are good in low dosages, but natural ways are the best way to treat. Let me know your past HCE so I can better understand where you are coming from (The old PA style of training or the newer style of PA training).

[acozadd]

Saying that online PA programs are not as good and that rn/rt/medic training does not really help in the real world is not true. We have years of good hands on experince and that is why we have mature minds where we do not need teachers holding our hands. I understand that an AT would be better at ortho than me, but UND is geared toward primary care (65% of grads are in primary care) so having a solid clinic background rn/rt/medic only helps you be a better PA. If you know you want to do ortho then be an AT. I could care less about what I know about ortho because I have not covered that yet, but when I do I will take that training where ever I practice. Yes, I agree that you could not and would not be allowed to run a vent. or broncho., but having a understanding of procedures like that do not hurt and only helps you while in PA school and post grad. For emergency medicine, I think basic skills such as being to understand an abg, x-ray, vent, knowing how to intubate will only help you in life. Saying that my school is inferior to yours because you want to do speciality is crazy. Look where are health care system is going and what PAs and NPs are here for. I care about helping pateints and educating them so they can maintain their life and not have to be seeing the "doctor" every month. I care about getting our country back to where it was and getting our citizens to understand about their health and knowing how to take care of their bodies. I understand that ortho is very important, but as a PA student, my goal is not money et first assist, my goal is to travel around the country and world helping people with their struggles (water, food, not educated, etc). I feel like I get more out of helping people in those situtations because I have done this as an RT and it feels GREAT! I just want you to think about how your making inferior comments to feel PA students/schools (UND been around since early 1970's and trains PAs as they were first trained). Look at the history of PAs and tell me how UND does not live up to how PAs were once trained. HCE was needed to be a PA and now you can have a B.S. or B.A. and be a tech. and get in. I dont know if you have HCE or not, but if you do then you would understand the improtance of having GOOD hands on patient care and knowing how to interact with patients, families, friends, other staff, etc. Its not just being able to interpet labs or intubate, but also knowing personal skills that will be with you forever. I have several friends in DO schools and have family freinds that are DOs and work with DOs that practice holistically, so I disagree with your last statement. Maybe it was just the few that you met or the part of the country. Who knows but if holistic is NP, DO, ND, DC what ever type of physician it is then I will practice that way because I believe that man made drugs are good in low dosages, but natural ways are the best way to treat. Let me know your past HCE so I can better understand where you are coming from (The old PA style of training or the newer style of PA training).

 

I think you misunderstood my posts if you felt they were trying to imply you were inferior. Regarding online programs- I'm not completely opposed as long as they still have a portion on site and that exams are proctored. I think having online programs LOOKS bad on the profession, but in reality a lot can be done online.

 

The past medical experience argument goes WAY back on these forums and I've had this debate with numerous "old school" members on here, you just happened to be a good example to make my point. Nothing personal against you. I think the significant PME was more emphasized early in the profession as most went into primary care or generalist practice. Today, PAs are found in all specialties... so 2348234 years as ________ doesn't always translate into being better prepared for a career in that field. FWIW I was an assistant in radiology (primarily CT/MRI) for 5 years before PA school, where I functioned similar to what an MA does. Histories, screening patients, IVs, paperwork, blah blah. It was useful and I'm glad I had the experience, but 99% of what I do on a daily basis now has been learned in PA school or on my own. I agree that experience can help you interact with patients and families, but even us in lowly positions got to interact with patients and families as well.

[Guest hubbardtim48]

Online programs are the way of the future. How do you think NPs are trained? Off the top of my head I know of 4 universities in my area that do online FNP, ANP, etc. Your crazy to think that online educaiton is not the way of the future. The NP programs around my area have limited time spent at the university and most are classes they take are the same ones I took for my masters and then they do a few hundred hours of rotations. That I think is not the best way to have good clincial knowledge. Students at UND spend 15 weeks at the university doing things that I listed above and think that this is a great way to allow health care professionals to continue working part time and still be able to go to school (for the first 6-8 months). So I would agree with you if we rarely went to the university and had limited interactions with the professors, but I can say with my masters in health science from saint francis university (all online) I learned a lot from those classes because I wanted to learned and actually read/did what I was suppose to do. It does not matter on campus or online ,it is what YOU want to put into it and get out of it. Same way in undergrad. I skipped classes a lot because I was doing research or working, but still did very well and learned a lot from the classes. I do not know much about a assistant in radiology, but I do know that your patient care interactions are in no way similiar to mine. If you did what I do for a career, you would understand where I am coming from. Histories, screening patients, IVs, paperwork, thats all good, but try educating patients, families, freinds about asthma (children and adults)/copd/pneumonia/smoking cessation/life style changes. Telling people that they need to quit doing this or they will die is not just something tech, PCAs do. Helping them understand their disease process or edcuating them on why they should quit. Try telling patients that they have pneumonia or asthma and how I am hear to help them by other interventions (therapy/education) via a physician-therapist driven protocol (so I do not have to talk with a doc., pa, np to do what I need to do). As an asthma educator and a respiratory disease management assessor, the physicians put their order in as RT assess and treat. That opens a HUGE door into what I can do to help this patient get better. Try telling a family member that their kid(s) are in critical condition and are not breathing or their heart is not pumping (keeping them alive via pressors etc.). I have had to do all of this many times while in the ER. Not just the docs tell people bad news, other allied health professsionals do also. You will never understand the difference between techs, CNA,MA,LPN, and RN, RTs, SLP, Rad. Therp., AT, Chiro, etc. because you have never been in our shoes. You think your assistant experience had great interactions with patients, but try actively coding one's family member and have them standing near you or touching you while you are in a middle of a code. I have had that more times than not and it is very uncomfortable, but it is the families wishes to be there when the patient is dying. As an RRT I have sat through a 100 + surgeries (cath. lab, IR, open bellies, emergent CABG, AAA, etc because they patient was on ventilation that anesth. (MDs, DOs, CRNAs) where not trained on and could not run the ventilators. (APRV (drager) Bi-vent (servo i) bi-level (PB 840) duopap (hamilton g-5) and VDR). The aprv, bivent, duopap, bilevel are 99% the same inverse ratio ventilation with minor differences and the VDR is a whole new type of ventilation most people dont even know about. So, yes we do a lot more than the typical pre-PA (tech, cna, emt etc) and we are PROUD of our past HCE and the schools are also because we believe we have a leg up on other schools/students because we are well versed in the health care system. I dont see your downfall to online education because again it is WHAT YOU bring to the table and not that you sit through a lecture playing on your iphone or ipad.

P.S. the more HCE hours one has the more prepared they are for PA school. Thats why the more the better and why PA schools want you to have TONS of hours as a PA student because you will see new things everyday and learn more about the health care system as a whole and not just a speciality.