passtudent Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Hi everyone! I'm a newcomer to the forum, and I'm looking for the opinions/guidance from some established PAs. I tried searching the forum and didn't find anything on this topic. (I also tried posting this in the PA-prep forum with no response...) Some pretext for the question... I'm currently enrolled in a PhD program for Language and Cognitive Science. I'm interested in what we can learn about the organization of language in the brain from neuropathological patient populations. Specifically, I am interested in the neurodegeneration associated with Alzheimer's disease. Ideally, I want use my understanding of Language and the brain as a way of developing better clinical tests to diagnose early AD, so that these people may get earlier treatments to help stave off symptoms. On some level I believe that I need a clinical leg-to-stand-on if you will. Clinical training, which will allow me to better serve the patients I want to help. I feel that PA might be the right route for me to make a hybrid of patient care and research. I don't have any desire to go to medical school, since I don't believe you learn to treat the whole patient there. I'm also not into the idea of medicine for money...but I do need to be financially secure. I don't know if you know any PhDs but it is increasingly impossible to find a job in academia (which is really all that I'd be qualified for after getting a PhD...last I checked, if I had my PhD tomorrow there would be 17 jobs in the entire country that I might be qualified for...and so would 200-400 other people...). So on some level this is about getting a job. But I think it's more about finding a place where I can both practice a high standard of care for my patients, as well as learn from them to provide better treatment for the next. The question for the Professional PAs, I suppose, is whether or not this is even possible. Do any of you know, or are any of you out there PA, PhDs? (That is, not a PhD of PA, but a PA with a PhD in some other field?) Or how about PAs in research? Am I totally crazy? Thanks for reading :) Brad -- (For those curious of my credentials, and my plausibility of being a candidate for PA school, I have a B.S. in Biology, and I've worked for 5 years as an EMT, so I have plenty of HCE ) (also forgive the half italicized text... I copy/pasted my original post, and the editor wont let me remove the italics...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/showthread.php/37916-PAs-in-Research-Advice-for-a-new-grad There's a lot here in this thread. I'm a behavioral workforce researcher, and there are more than a few PAs with PhDs in other fields. Wake Forest even has a PA/PhD combined program.....although not in language and cognitive science. We need more, but there are some like Rod Hooker who is a PA and has been a very productive researcher for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passtudent Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Thanks for the quick reply, and for the insightful thread. Definitely good to know that this does exist out there as a real possibility. It's an affirmation of the current plan I've devised. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Glad to help, but even though its possible, please understand that it is more of an uphill battle than having an MD/PhD. The reason being that many administrators and Department Chairs only see PAs in a clinical light, having an active, independent research agenda is not a usual activity. You have to convince them otherwise. You'll likely need to be in a big academic institution like Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Baylor, Hopkins, etc. where you can practice in Neurology and work with AD patients. As long as you are honest about your intentions, and have a real conversation during your interviews about your research agenda, you will likely find a fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passtudent Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 As much as an uphill battle it may be, it can't be any worse than the battle associated with obtaining a tenure-track faculty position at a university. At least in this situation, I have the ability to avoid financial ruin. I'm only a first year PhD student, and I had a very rough and rude adjustment to reality in my first semester. It wasn't the workload; it was the existential doubt that the work had any meaning if the odds of actually working in the field were slim. Thankfully, I've made peace with that idea, and I seem to have found my alternative (which I believe resonates with me better than my initial faculty delusions, with respect to my experiences and who I am). But I still think I can reasonably finish the PhD, as it would give the necessary legitimacy to my research goals. So... my intention is to apply for PA schools this August; meanwhile continuing to work on the PhD, in order to obtain ABD status. By the end of next spring semester I anticipate reaching the ABD status, which will be perfect timing to start as a PA-S (assuming I get in). While in PA school, I'll register with my current program for "off-campus dissertation research," and work on my research as I can (my current department seems to be pretty flexible with this, and pretty much anything goes as long as one continues to make "adequate progress"). Ultimately I plan to complete my dissertation during my first employment as a PA-C. Then I'll go for the big academic hospital gig, and convince them of my active, independent research agenda. ;) Now, does that seem plausible? (leaving aside the fact that you don't know me from a hole in the wall...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassPA-C Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 So I am an PA-S1 with an extensive research background. I was in a PhD program (Health Sociology) at U of C and ended up leaving after my masters for many of the reasons you describe. I worked in clinical research for about 4 years before deciding on PA school spent another couple getting my required classes finished. I have a classmate with a biomedical enginering PhD who plans to return to research, as do I. One thing to keep in mind is that research backgrounds will always be "worth more" in the medical field than staying in your own field. (i.e. everyone who does research in health sociology has a phd and I wouldnt stand a chance of working on some of that research. In my experience there are a lot of physicians who want to do research, get grants and everything but have no freaking clue what they are doing. That is where you/me/my friend come in. I have extensive IRB, grant, methodology, stats, etc etc experience which thrown in with medical knowledge makes you unique and in demand). That being said I am willing to only do clinical work and leave research behind- though my PA program (Wake) has an entire class on research called Evidence Based Medicine that all students have to complete. Hope that helps! Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 So I am an PA-S1 with an extensive research background. I was in a PhD program (Health Sociology) at U of C and ended up leaving after my masters for many of the reasons you describe. I worked in clinical research for about 4 years before deciding on PA school spent another couple getting my required classes finished. I have a classmate with a biomedical enginering PhD who plans to return to research, as do I. One thing to keep in mind is that research backgrounds will always be "worth more" in the medical field than staying in your own field. (i.e. everyone who does research in health sociology has a phd and I wouldnt stand a chance of working on some of that research. In my experience there are a lot of physicians who want to do research, get grants and everything but have no freaking clue what they are doing. That is where you/me/my friend come in. I have extensive IRB, grant, methodology, stats, etc etc experience which thrown in with medical knowledge makes you unique and in demand). That being said I am willing to only do clinical work and leave research behind- though my PA program (Wake) has an entire class on research called Evidence Based Medicine that all students have to complete. Hope that helps! Best of luck! Ahh, one of Reamer's students. You are right about physicians often not knowing what they are doing with research. Most of them are smart enough to know that, and either complete an MPH, MMSc, or PhD to accompany their MD prior to engaging in a busy research career.....some aren't. What we do here is a little different. We have two different types of research faculty positions here. 1. Career Scientist 2. Collaborative Scientist. Career scientist is nice in the fact that you get to complete your own research agenda, and you get to choose what you want to work on and not work on......it sucks in the fact that you have to be completely self funded through grants. The collaborative scientist position offers much more job security, they expect you to have some grant funding, but you are not required to be completely self funded, the bad part is that your time is not your own. You are expected to function as a resource for physicians and other clinical staff on research studies/projects, even if it is something that you are not necessarily interested in. A physician may contact you and say, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing this study, can we talk".....You are expected to go meet with them and help them to design and conduct the study. The hard part here for PAs, is that we are considered Allied Health, and not physician/scientist staff. So while I have more job security as a PA, I do not have access to certain programs/benefits that they have. Additionally, although my department has given me some protected time for research and is very supportive, there are limits to how much protected time you can obtain. When I brought up a scholars program that would have given me 40% protected time, my director choked.........Right now, I have 10% as "seed time", with the expectation that within the next 6 months, all protected time will be bought, or paid for with grant funding. He has expressed willingness to see me have protected time up to 20%, and I think I can likely push that to 25 or maybe even 30%, but again, it's harder for PAs, because they just don't see us in that light...... Personally, I am trying to move into a full time research faculty position here. I can always go back to PA if needed, and my heart is in research now. The problem is, I'm still relatively fresh out of my doctorate, and I'm trying to navigate a "self designed" post doc. I wanted to do a formal one, but could not possibly endure the 45% pay cut that would have come with it..... Doesn't mean you can't do it, and I think you should, because it will make it easier for future PAs, just like others have made it easier for you.....but it is still a somewhat novel concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 This thread needs some love... http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1490 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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