timman Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Hello, I'm new to these forums, so forgive me if I post something that is frequently seen here. I searched, but I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I am applying to PA schools this year, but I just started working as an EMT to gain my contact hours. My plan was to apply to every school that did not require the PCH, and, if I didn't get in, I would work as an EMT to obtain those hours for the next year. However, I'm having a terrible time trying to find any sort of organized list specifying schools that do not require these hours. This forum has a decent list, but it only contains a few states' schools. Is there another website or list you guys have come across that can help me out (sort by requirements kind of thing)? I'd rather not go to the official site of every PA school in the nation =). Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman54 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Download the excel file under the sticky thread labeled PA program excel file and formal hello. This lists if the program requires HCE. CAUTION! This excel file may be a little outdated and not contain newer programs. If that is the case then you will need to simply look at the school's website. Welcome to the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 Thanks! I'll take a look right now. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You're willing to spend 50-100k to go to PA school but not spend a few hours doing your research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Good one, Chris! I agree. I know that many posters talk about having thousands of hours (I did, but that was just because I happen to have been old). That shouldn't turn potential PAs off on trying to get ANY hours. I think a prospective PA needs to know something about the medical field and the environment in which he or she will be working. That doesn't have to be full-time experience but it should be something. Don't be in such a huge rush that you get into a career field you don't know much about yet. And good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Firstly, who are you to judge me? Because you are a PA student already, you think it's easy going for everyone to get to where you are? Maybe you forgot it's not an easy task to apply for PA schools and that this forum (which is part of my "research" you imply I have not done) exists to aid in those who have questions regarding schools and the process. Your comment was both unhelpful and represents these forums in a negative manner. Be constructive or leave newcomers' threads alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 UGoLong, Thank you for the reply. While I do not agree with Chris' approach, yours does well. I have been working in the medical field (in a non clinical manner) and shadowing doctors and PAs for years. I know what the job entails. I was inches from going to medical school, but I chose this field instead. That is because I did my research. I am not rushing into anything. I have given thought to many avenues of science and decided on this one. Thanks for putting some thought into your reply =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 24, 2013 Administrator Share Posted June 24, 2013 Firstly, who are you to judge me? We are the people whose value as PAs is being diminished by people like you who want to get into the profession without fulfilling the actual *point* of the profession, to uplevel people who already had demonstrated competence in existing healthcare careers into essentially limited-duty physicians, or physician extenders if you prefer. I would prefer a hard limit of 2,000 hours paid and/or certified patient contact experience for admission to a PA program, or 4,000 hours including clinical rotations to sit for PANCE. I really don't think it's possible to be a real PA without that minimum level of competence, although I'd prefer that people under 30 have more stringent minimum HCE limits, and people under 25 be barred entirely. It's not because we hate you or want to ruin your life, but we can't be both pressing for greater independence and autonomy as well as training and certifying book-smart kids with little clinical or life experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 The sad thing is that in the society we live in, people like myself with enormous mounds of student loans are forced into looking for ways like this to get into their preferred profession fastest. A) Get into a PA school now B) Work as an EMT, move back with my parents so I can pay my ridiculous student loans and barely stay afloat. I could have planned better, but only hindsight is clear as glass. While I agree that I would be more prepared for the job with more hours, you cannot tell me that I will be poor at it because I have not worked moving gurneys for BLS companies for 2 years. This all seems like a personal attack now. The lead ER PA at the hospital I shadow at went to WesternU. They don't require HCE. He is highly regarded as fantastic. You drop phrases like "people like you." Well people like you seem elitist. People like you are turning a bright young mind away from your field, where he can work to fight for this autonomy and greater independence you speak of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Firstly, who are you to judge me? Because you are a PA student already, you think it's easy going for everyone to get to where you are? Maybe you forgot it's not an easy task to apply for PA schools and that this forum (which is part of my "research" you imply I have not done) exists to aid in those who have questions regarding schools and the process. Your comment was both unhelpful and represents these forums in a negative manner. Be constructive or leave newcomers' threads alone. Why so sensitive? It is not a judgment to ask a legitimate question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 24, 2013 Administrator Share Posted June 24, 2013 People like you are turning a bright young mind away from your field, where he can work to fight for this autonomy and greater independence you speak of. Go to med school if you want autonomy and independence. Go to med school if you want to not need extensive healthcare experience before the formal schooling. There is really no short cut to practicing medicine, just PA recognizes those of us who paid our dues other ways than in med school and residency. Ultimately, you'll probably be happier and better compensated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 to the OP: Remember that none of us know you. While some of the responses may seem flip (and a few probably are), we are just some strangers you asked for advice. You don't have to take it. And yes, we do judge you; we have to to try to frame an answer to your question. And do we miss the mark? Probably; all we know about you are a few sentences. And we have our own foibles; rev wants everyone to have lots of hours of healthcare experience. So? That's his opinion and you get opinions here. There are a few good reasons for healthcare experience. The first is so that you will be sure you are heading down the right road for you. The second is so you understand enough about the field that you can step in and be someone that in a crisis that nurses and other docs can look to and ask: "What do you want to do now?" That probably doesn't come from humping patients between hospitals, but seeing what happens to patients after you take them to the ER probably will. Along with your clinicals. I sympathize with the student debts people are faced with these days. When I first graduated from college, it cost maybe $600 a YEAR for tuition! Things have changed. Each of us lives in our own times and makes the best of it that we can. The question for you is what do you want to do and how do you want to get there? In the end, it's your decision. I wish you the best along whatever your path turns out to be. I would suggest you get a bit thicker-thinned because everyone has his or her opinion and, when you ask for it, you should listen and decide if you want to ignore it, but don't fly off the handle if you don't like what you hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timon Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I want to reply to this thread so much but I'm biting my tongue in order not to speak poorly about programs. Look, have you started accumulating any HCE yet? If so how much are you at? Feel free to PM me, I'm from So Cal and I was in your shoes not too long ago with 0 hours of HCE. I'm sure I can give you some pointers / opinions but I'm not going to be that candid here on this thread. Either way schools you may consider are Touro Mares Island, Touro Nevada (if you have a little HCE), Western University and maybe some of the new programs opening up Charles Drew, MBK(the one in Fullerton?), or West Coast University. Are you looking out of state as well? Don't forget that apart of your evaluation of programs should include first time PANCE pass rates and their remediation policies along with cost/length of schooling. You also should find out the general opinion of the quality of new grads being produced from a program. I know for a fact there is a major program that I've heard numerous physicians tell me they'll never hire a new grad from that program because they are always lost and can't get up to speed (this program doesn't have a HCE prerequisite). Just food for thought. My advice regarding HCE prior to PA school. Not all HCE is the same. Doing IFTs is not even accepted for RCC and a few other programs in the area. Do yourself a favor and try to get an ER Tech job or an EKG Tech or anything in the hospital. You'll quickly find out how valuable the experience is during your PA program and as a new grad PA. Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Thank you for the replies. I work 30 hours a week doing BLS calls. Some of them are IFTs, and some of them are ER calls. I might have 150-200 hours so far. I just started recently. I have been shadowing for almost a year now. @UGoLong: I can take criticism and suggestions very well, but it seemed like I was being attack for asking a simple question. I could have handled it better, but I had just gotten home from a long shift and was a little pissy. So, fair enough. It's been a very long road for me getting here. I was rolling and doing things with some very bad people for many years. I turned my life around, and when I hear people say, "You won't be good at something," it irks me because I know I will be if put my mind to it. If I've come from where I was to where I am, I know I can do anything I put my mind to. I'm turned off from being a doctor because of the poor quality of life. Many have long hours and high stress loads. I'm sure different people have different reasons for going PA, but mine is so that I can still work in the health care field being somewhat autonomous, care for patients (I'd love to go into addiction medicine), and be able to be there for my family at the end of the end. The PAs I know are all so happy. Not one of them regrets their choice. It's a toss up for the doctors... many have told me to go PA. @Timon: I will PM you. Thanks =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbalaban Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I am rather confused about this experience thing. Wasn't the PA profession modeled for those with extensive experience to move towards a mid-level position and work more closely with Dr's with a more expanded scope of practice? I get the impression and feeling that many schools, those without the experience requirement are somewhat spitting in the face of the tradition that the profession was founded on? And it seems like there are many people here that are simply looking at the experience issue as just a hurdle to cross, much like having a high GPA, without getting the meaning for having the experience. I get worried as an applicant that people looking for just enough to get by are taking the seats for the people like me that have put in many many years of caring for patients and getting frustrated enough with the limited scope of practice that you want to go further with your education and improve your knowledge and skills to improve and expand your care for the patients you see. Ok, sorry for the flame. I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 25, 2013 Administrator Share Posted June 25, 2013 I'm turned off from being a doctor because of the poor quality of life. Many have long hours and high stress loads. What makes you think PA-dom is any different? I do 90% of the same work as my collaborating primary care docs do (the 10% being because I don't have my own panel, and so don't have to follow them) for half the pay. Some of them leave earlier than I do some days. You really need to do more research. The idea that PAs work less and have less responsibility is something I, too, had heard about, but nowhere have I seen it in clinicals or in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 25, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2013 You really need to do more research. The idea that PAs work less and have less responsibility is something I, too, had heard about, but nowhere have I seen it in clinicals or in practice. agree. I consistently work 180-220 hrs/mo and the docs in our group all work 110-140 hrs/mo. I go home after all the docs in the hospital except for the medical interns. the pgy-2 fp residents generally have easier hrs and go home sooner than the vast majority of pas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanj59 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 It's my first year applying to PA programs. I recently took a day to go through every PA program's website and reviewed all their requirements. It required a time commitment, but I would suggest you set aside the time to do so. It turned out I discovered some programs I can apply to this cycle that I had not even given consideration towards before looking. The list of accredited programs can be found here: http://www.arc-pa.org/acc_programs/ As to the HCE hours, even though it may seem like being an EMT-B for the hours required by some programs would be a sacrifice of time I would not trade the time I spent working towards accumulating my hours for anything. It's all about how you spend your time when dealing with patients. It's easy to move from patient to patient and some people can get lazy in the job (not saying you are one of those). I used the time I was with patients as more opportunity to master the skills that I had and learned from the various patients I dealt with during my tenure. For example, an observant/curious EMT will start to notice and begin to familiarize themselves with the drugs patients tend to be taking, or what ALS gives and why when a patient is in full arrest. Even if your scope of practice is limited in the job it still affords many opportunities for expanding your knowledge base if you stay curious. The longer you're working, the longer you'll be exposed to a variety of patients that may have a complex medical history. Hope this helped a bit and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Rev and EMEDPA, Very interesting. I seem to have been misled somewhat. So are you two happy with your choice to become PAs? Keep in mind that pay has little to do with it for me. As long as my income is enough to support a family, I'll be happy. At the expense of sounding like an idiot, what do you mean exactly by "research?" Google search stats and testimonials and the like? Deanj, Nice post. I, too, do this. I have a fair understanding of physiology from my undergrad, so I love talking to nurses about patient conditions. I never thought of it as clearly as you put it though. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 25, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2013 Rev and EMEDPA,Very interesting. I seem to have been misled somewhat. So are you two happy with your choice to become PAs? Keep in mind that pay has little to do with it for me. As long as my income is enough to support a family, I'll be happy. I should have gone to medschool. I am making the most of it now by seeking out high autonomy positions(solo coverage, etc) but the restrictions associated with being a pa for me are not ideal given the job I would like to be doing...it's not about money. it's about respect, autonomy, and scope of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timman Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 I should have gone to medschool. I am making the most of it now by seeking out high autonomy positions(solo coverage, etc) but the restrictions associated with being a pa for me are not ideal given the job I would like to be doing...it's not about money. it's about respect, autonomy, and scope of practice. Do you enjoy your job though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 25, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2013 Do you enjoy your job though? probably 90% of the time. working solo and rural helps a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Davenport Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 EMEDPA we've had some good times as a PA! Miss you, my friend. Seems we've had this conversation over lunch at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 25, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2013 EMEDPA we've had some good times as a PA! Miss you, my friend. Seems we've had this conversation over lunch at least once. and a few times on the trail as well as I recall....any good trail running out there in NC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Davenport Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Yes. And today on the Georgia beaches. Will be in NW in mid August. Lets hook up. Email me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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