Train with med students?

[futurePAS]

I was disappointed to find out that several PA programs in universities that house a College of Medicine do not actually train their PAs and MDs together, or share classes. I originally wanted to only attend a program in an institution that has a MD/DO program since I believed it would provide stronger didactics, clinical opportunities etc.

 

But does it even matter if many of the PA programs are placed in "Allied Health" departments and are taught separately from the med students anyway? Would like to hear thoughts from current students and graduates of those who attend(ed) a program within an MD institution.

[EMEDPA]

I went to hahnemann/drexel which has an md program.

we didn't take courses with medstudents but shared a lot of faculty for example our pharm course was taught by the same md, pharmd who taught the med students course.

taking a program at a medschool often gives you easy access to a hospital as well for courses such as history taking, physical dx, etc . having the hospital next door makes life a lot easier for these courses due to the easy access to real patients.

both programs I applied to (also u.wa medex) housed medschools in addition to their pa programs. that was pretty much the original model for most places.

[marktheshark89]

I'm starting at Yale in the fall, which also has an MD program. We don't have classes with the MD students, but we receive the exact same lectures from the same lecturers that they do (with the exception of a few topics that aren't covered as in depth in PA school). The reason we don't have classes at the same time is just because the schedule of the med students and PA students are different. We do anatomy in one semester, while they complete it in a full year. We do the same exact labs and have the same lectures, our schedule is just compressed. It is like this for several other classes as well. During the clinical year, PA students and 3rd/4th year MD students are not given different assignments based on the level of training, and in fact are not usually distinguishable from one another unless one takes the time to read the student's name badge. I agree with EMEDPA that having the hospital so close by is a huge plus, particularly when learning physical exam skills or when doing clinical rotations (assuming some of your rotations are at that hospital). Though we do not take classes with the med students, we still have access to the same resources and professors as the med students, and thus the educational quality is high.

[winterallsummer]

I go to a school that's MD/PA and wouldn't want to share classes with them, and am glad we don't. Plus they go at a much slower pace than us so I don't see how it would even be possible.

[greenmood]

We took some social/ethics classes with the medical students at Rosalind. They were designed to build quality relationships between future medical personnel, and to teach those of us who didn't know already how to work with other health professionals. The physical therapy and nurse anesthetist students were also included.

 

Here's the thing... a PA program is not the same as an MD program, and the training is not identical. I don't mean to offend, but I do think it's a little naive to think that you would start a PA program and have literally the same training as your MD contemporaries. If that was the case, you would be in medical school, not PA school.

[EMEDPA]

a PA program is not the same as an MD program, and the training is not identical. I don't mean to offend, but I do think it's a little naive to think that you would start a PA program and have literally the same training as your MD contemporaries. If that was the case, you would be in medical school, not PA school.

there are some courses which are exactly the same so there is no reason pa students couldn't take these withthe medstudents. history taking, physicial examination, all the fluff courses, etc are the same material with the same books

[kem2127]

Do you do at least the same clinical rotations as the Med Students from your program? My program is not affiliated with a Med School, but while I'm in the hospitals completing my clinical year I am working side by side with Med Students in my Pediatric, IM, ER and Surgery rotations in addition to the PA students and NP students from these programs, so we are all seeing and getting similar clinical exposure and training as the 3rd and 4th year Med students. And in my case, because I'm attending a public institution, I'm paying about the same for the entire program as they are for a semester at Cornell!

[beano]

I am almost halfway through the didactic year at a program within a Medical University. We do not share classes with Med students, and as other have pointed out I would not want to. Our education is similar but unique to our role in the healthcare system. We do have online access to every course and all materials of the Med School if we want to learn more on any topic.

 

We share many of the same faculty and lecturers. We also have direct access to all the resources of the med school, resources unavailable to unaffiliated schools in the area. For example our cadaver lab is in the basement, sim lab with exam rooms, to trauma rooms, and all the practice dummies you would ever want, standardized patients, not to mention the Med Center itself (IE grand rounds, real-life patients).

[km07cq]

At our program we are not with the med students in the classroom but we are taught by the same professors for courses such as gross anatomy and our biochem is taught by the dean of the graduate school of medicine. As someone pointed out above, our timelines just do not match with the med school. We do gross in 6 weeks where as the med students do it over the course of a year and a half. But it is the same professors and lectures (not as in depth on the lymphatics and cutaneous nerves etc). It is nice going to a med/hospital affiliated program though. I will get to do my rotations at NYP-Cornell Columbia, Memorial Sloan Kettering and the Hospital for Special Surgery where the most difficult and rare cases in New York are sent. Didactic is just a means to get to the real learning that takes place in the hospital. I wouldn't say choose a school for the fact that they are associated with an MD program... choose the one where you will get the best hospital affiliations (if it happens to be within the school of medicine then so be it). You will be working in MD-PA teams in the clinical setting anyways. No need to sit with them in class all day too.

[greenmood]

there are some courses which are exactly the same so there is no reason pa students couldn't take these withthe medstudents. history taking, physicial examination, all the fluff courses, etc are the same material with the same books

 

Yah, I know. But the OP implied that stronger didactic curricula results from taking classes with medical students; I don't believe that is true, necessarily. On my clinicals, PA students were uniformly better at these skills than our MD student counterparts. It was remarked-upon by preceptors. Why would I want to drag my learning down with folks who don't think they need to excel at these "fluff" courses? Plus, we did anatomy in a short summer. The med students took it over the course of a full year. That's more what I meant in saying that the training is not the same.

 

kem2127 Do you do at least the same clinical rotations as the Med Students from your program?

 

I saw a lot of them at the institutions where I did my rotations. Some were from my school and some were from elsewhere. I think it would be difficult to find a place that only took PA students and refused medical students. That was the choice of my Family Medicine preceptor, who ran a private practice. But larger learning institutions tend to take a wider swath of future medical providers - MD, DO, PA, RN, CRNA, etc. And yes, the clinical experiences are the same as those of MS4s (and in my case, the same as those of the PGYs) if not better.

[chickitabanana]

I graduated from Yale where the PA program is a program of the medical school, but we do not take any didactic courses with the MD students. Some of our lectures were the same, some were not. The majority were taught by Yale Med faculty and therefore, being a PA program affiliated with Yale Med, we got the same high quality education as the MD students. The reason we don't take any classes with them is because our pre-clinical curriculum is crammed into one year and they have two years. Thus, the pace at which we're learning material is not the same and it would be impossible to have every single class with them. Also, there are some topics (histology, pathology) that are covered more in depth in MD programs that in PA programs. We cover anatomy from September-December and they cover it from September-February. (Same teacher, same lab, same assignments, but we meet on different days). We start clinical modules in January and the don't start them until their second year of school. By the time we're done with first year we begin rotations with the current 3rd year med students, not the second year medical students who we started school with. It just wouldn't be feasible to have every class with MD students because the pace at which we cover material is faster. I'm sure this is how it is with other MD/PA programs as well.

 

During clinical year we are assigned to a lot of rotations with the MD students. There are a few differences (PAs require a month of geriatrics and two months of primary care vs. MD require a month of neurology/neurosurgery and their psych and ob/gyn clerkships are each 2 weeks longer than ours), but the majority of the core rotations (psych, ob/gyn, internal medicine, pediatrics, general surgery, emergency medicine) are done together. We are required to complete the same clerkship assignments, attend the same noon conferences and educational teaching sessions, and are held to the same standard as they are when presenting on morning rounds, assisting in the OR, taking call, etc.

 

I've heard that Duke does have some classes that are combined PA-MD so there might be other schools that do, too. Regardless of who is sitting next to you in didactic classes, being affiliated with a medical school (and thus, teaching hospital(s)) does give you an advantage for clinical rotation sites, clinical rotation quality, academic resources, faculty lecturers, etc. even if you don't share classes with the MD students. Plus, it helps spread the word about the PA profession/educate a lot of future doctors who don't know what a PA is :)

[KieranHolt55]

Most understudies who will wind up in med school did alright in secondary school to get school for the most part paid for in grants on the off chance that they couldn't bear the cost of it themselves (and who can nowadays). They'll for the most part have credits for med school. You get paid amid your residency (preparing after med school) yet not a considerable measure. Simply take out the advances and pay them back when you have an extraordinary paying employment as a specialist. GCSE Coursework UK

[moy505]

We took some social/ethics classes with the medical students at Rosalind. They were designed to build quality relationships between future medical personnel, and to teach those of us who didn't know already how to work with other health professionals. The physical therapy and nurse anesthetist students were also included.

 

Here's the thing... a PA program is not the same as an MD program, and the training is not identical. I don't mean to offend, but I do think it's a little naive to think that you would start a PA program and have literally the same training as your MD contemporaries. If that was the case, you would be in medical school, not PA school.

 

I think it depends on the program. For example, at UIowa the med students and PA students take the exact same didactic curriculum (same tests, lectures, grading scale, etc.). So obviously the difficulty of the didactics is the same for med and PA students there.

 

I wonder if programs that split up med students and PA students (~90% of programs) have a difference in difficulty? At Rosalind (which is a top PA school) the PA students seem to have a 1% drop out rate (link below) while the med students have a ~5% drop out rate. The students coming into the 2 programs are probably similar in natural abilities but the med students have a 5x higher dropout rate. That's a pretty big difference.

 

https://rosalindfranklin.edu/about/diversity-inclusion/diversity-inclusion-statement/student-achievement-data/

[Joelseff]

At Stanford we did not have classes with the med students but we rotated through the hospital with them, taught them basic medical procedures and worked in the student clinic with them. We also shared the same faculty and classrooms just not the same classes.

 

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[Lyndhurst]

Our program shares facilities and some faculty with the DO's but are otherwise completely separate. It has already been said above but it is mainly to do with the pace and depth of content. The DO's have two years to get through their material, we do it in one. We are all about clinical skills, simulations, OSCE's, clinical experiences while the DO students are predominantly lecture based with far less skills practice at this stage. I can't see how it would be an advantage for them or us to share a lecture hall and look at the same powerpoint together. We are on similar but different paths.

[jlumsden]

At my program, we do not share lectures with the MD students, but I was able to audit some evening seminar classes on health disparities.  We also have intraprofessional education events every few months, where we work on cases together (with dental, pharmacy and nursing students).  Some MD students were awesome, but in my experience, some MD students can be a bit overzealous and competitive.  Backdoor bragging/tangential questions seemed to happen a lot (e.g. when I was backpacking in Ecuador to vaccinate indigenous children against herpes zoster virus, I noticed that many people didn't want to wear shoes.  Do Hispanic children in the US have good oral health?)  One student shot down my answer to a case in group, and then when we reviewed our work with the professor, he volunteered my answer and took credit for it.  Many MD students seem to believe it's their responsibility to be in charge of all of the other health care providers.  Sometimes this can interfere with learning.  The culture of PA education seems to foster more of a collaborative spirit.  If you don't have to share classroom time with PA students, it may be a blessing in disguise.