FBIDoc Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 What do you think about this new PA program that only admits SF 18D medics? http://www.med.unc.edu/ahs/unc-pa/about-pa-program I can see pros and cons but am throwing this out there for the forumites to feed upon...cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I think that if they only accept 18D medics there is a huge problem because that MOS isn't open to women. I do think its great to open a program targeting military medics and corpsman, however, as the unemployment for veteran medics is excessively high compared to non-veterans and veterans from many other specialties. They leave service with amazing skills and can't use them because there is no civilian equivalent, so it's a wonderful idea that will benefit both the veteran medics and the community. I don't know that its best to exclude non-vets entirely but it seems to be better to require high quality training and experience then all the programs that don't require any HCE and just focus on GPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcdavis Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I have no problem with it. It is a start. I think that it will soon be expanded to include combat medics and corpsmen, submarine and independent duty corpsmen, air force PJ medics. As stated about, it is an atrocious waste that these folks ( full disclosure, I was one) are discharged and have no conduit into civilian life.. I would endorse having at least 2 ( one on each coast) schools which enroll ONLY Former military medics/corpsmen/PJs. Seems like the right thing to do. I'll bet the first class blows the curriculae away, and has 100%PANCE pass rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Foundation of our profession. There is a huge HRSA grant to recruit and train these medics as PAs so a dedicated program for these folks could be financially very easy for the sponsoring school. Have at it, I say. Train them well and renew the profession. I could care less if this particular program essentially excludes females de facto. Have you looked at the ranks of a PA program lately? They are oozing women. No shortage of female PAs at all. And in case it isn't very obvious by my screen name, I am very much 46XX and a very girly one at that. Also an old school PA who appreciates the origins of our profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's about time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tain Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I see no problem with it being only for prior 18D's...Yale PA program, Duke, Etc are all exclusive because they only take in high GPA students, so why shouldn't the one at UNC for 18D's be exclusive because of all the training they get in SF? For those who aren't familiar with the training SF medics get: Scope: Basic life support/automatic external defibrillation; pharmaceutical calculations; anatomy; physiology; pathophysiology; medical terminology; basic physical-exam techniques; medical documentation; pharmacology; basic airway management; medical patient assessment; advanced airway management; patient management skills; pre-hospital trauma emergencies and care; tactical combat casualty-care skills; operating-room procedures; minor surgical skills; NREMT-Basic examination; obstetrics/gynecology and pediatric emergencies; cardiac pharmacology; advanced cardiac life support (ACLS); EMT paramedic clinical rotation and field internship consists of a two-week hospital rotation in the emergency department, labor and delivery, surgical intensive care, pediatric emergency department, operating room, and a two-week ambulance rotation with an assignment to an advanced life support EMS unit responsible for responding to a variety of 911 emergency calls; USSOCOM EMT-paramedic exam; care of the trauma patient in a field environment; preventive medicine; nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) casualty care, and nursing care; 30 hours of clinical rotations in clinics located on Fort Bragg, N.C., conducting sick call under the supervision of a physician or physician’s assistant. 2nd phase of SF medic training: The Special Forces Medical Sergeant’s course is a 14-week program of instruction that teaches eight classes per year. The target audience for SFMS is SOCM-qualified Army enlisted service members currently in the Special Forces Qualification Course. The course qualifies 18D students in the advanced skills and knowledge required to perform duties as a Special Forces Medical Sergeant. SFMS is designed to teach 18D’s the knowledge and skills required to perform as supervised providers in CONUS environments, and allowing 18D’s to provide health care as independent providers OCONUS and on mission deployments. Independent provider means the 18D is supervised indirectly after diagnosis and treatment has taken place. The course consists of 5 academic modules. Topics included in training are veterinary, operational medical planning; medical subspecialty area; war wound management, to include surgery, general intravenous anesthesia, long-term wound therapy, medical documentation and central materials service; regional anesthesia; and radiology/ultrasound. The course includes a 24 day clinical rotation at a civilian, military or public-health service hospital where students work, learn and are mentored by licensed medical providers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted May 16, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2013 love it But should be open to vets from all branches and all walks of life... I was a 2A353A in the USAF - was not a medic so would not have been eligible but my service was not worth any less.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Ventana, thank you for your service. I disagree though--I have no problem with a program set up specifically to recruit and train a particular branch of military medics as PAs. Lots of other programs appreciate and admit other service members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68W2PA Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I have no problem with it. It is a start. I think that it will soon be expanded to include combat medics and corpsmen, submarine and independent duty corpsmen, air force PJ medics. As stated about, it is an atrocious waste that these folks ( full disclosure, I was one) are discharged and have no conduit into civilian life.. There is always IPAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Awesome! They should excel at telling patients they need to suck it up, drink some water, and if they are really really injured, to take 800mg of motrin :=D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 As a former female military medic I will always have a problem with the gender discrimination I experienced in military life transitioning to discrimination in civilian life. Women still don't get enough respect and appreciation for their work in the military by anyone who doesn't see what they can do. I would never argue that I was trained nearly as well or as thoroughly as the 18D's, but I worked with several in Iraq on missions so I learned from/trained with them. I have no problem with the interview including skill assessment to see if other medics are up to speed and maybe no one else would be, but I can't watch a program be literally "for men only" and sit back and take it in silence. If women collectively spoke up more and believed that they should have more rights we'd probably have a few female 18D's by now and there would be no gender issue with the program concept. I understand that most classes these days have more women then men, but I don't know of any that exclude men to be able to claim fairness in this situation. It also might have something to do with the fact that a lot more women than men apply to PA programs. tain- Yale isn't as picky about GPA as you seem to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tain Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 @sartort Do you know any women who can pass SFAS? Women are now allowed to become 18D's...so it shouldn't a problem..And the average GPA for those who got into Yale's PA program is 3.7...that's fairly picky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 16, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2013 looks good to me but as others have said would open it up to medical folks from all the services. I have had IDC's and PJ's as students before and they did very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 @sartort Do you know any women who can pass SFAS? Women are now allowed to become 18D's...so it shouldn't a problem..And the average GPA for those who got into Yale's PA program is 3.7...that's fairly picky. It's hard to answer that since I don't know any women who have had the opportunity to try, but I don't think your ability to carry heavy loads a ridiculous distance has much to do with how good of a PA you will be, or how quickly you will learn. According to the Army the 18D MOS is still not open to women, so I'm a little confused by what you mean. Like I said, I would never argue that the 18D training is not superior to the 68W or that of a corspman (which should be pretty much identical to 68W because they both learn at Fort Sam together now). 18Ds are some really awesome and exceptional people. They also love to teach, which is why I had so many opportunities to learn from them, so I imagine they would help their classmates if there was a need to do so. If other medics end up not being qualified to make the cut I see no issue with an all 18D class and I have no doubt that they will be an amazing group of PAs. It shouldn't only be open to 18D's to apply is all I'm saying. Other medics should be considered, and maybe they will be when the program is formed. You have to consider ranges. Don't not apply to a program just because the average GPA is higher than yours. You might be surprised when you get that interview e-mail, like I was. Yale: [TABLE=class: lined, width: 1] [TR=bgcolor: transparent] [TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]Average GPA[/TD] [TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]3.70 (range 3.29 -3.99)[/TD] [/TR] [TR=bgcolor: transparent] [TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]Average Science GPA[/TD] [TD=bgcolor: transparent, align: left]3.67 (range 3.17-3.99)[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Duke for middle 50 percent of class: Overall GPA: 3.3 – 3.7 Natural science GPA: 3.2 – 3.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tain Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's not about SFAS making you a good PA, SFAS is what you have to pass to become a 18D...I may be mistaken but I saw a list of MOS' now open to women an 18D was on the list. The training 18D's is without a doubt far superior to the training 68W's and corpsman get (50 weeks as opposed to 16). 68W's and corpsman can apply to any program they would like and still have an advantage over those who did not serve in those positions. The program is just intended to take all the training 18D's get, further it and translate it into a PA degree. There are so many programs out there I really don't see why one program dedicated to 18D's is really that big of a problem...I'm joining the Army as a Ranger medic (going to SOCM) I'll get a lot of the same training as 18D's but still won't be able to go to the program at UNC but i'm not complaining, I know that experience/training will give me an advantage when applying to other schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Be cautious not to conflate Corpsman with Independent Duty Corpsman (IDC). IDC school is a year long, specifically designed to train up an enlisted person to be the soul provider on board ship in the middle of the ocean OR supervise a Battalion Aid Station and the fire team corpsman with the Marines. 18Ds sound pretty darn hard core and I hope the school for them is a smashing success. I think the school is missing out by not taking IDCs or Air Force PJs but perhaps their vision will change down the road a bit. From the business end of the spectrum, I can't imagine other schools NOT doing this sort of thing. There is federal money out for programs who will give preference to Vets. PLUS there is the various forms of the GI bill that can finance Vets through PA school...the school gets a guaranteed income, very smart students who will perform well, boosting the school's reputation. It's a win win all the way around. That being said...my time as a non IDC corpsman has served me very very well in PA school. I am grateful for the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tain Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 How does one become an IDC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vet-up Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 How does one become an IDC? Check this out: http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/swmi/Pages/IndependentDutyCorpsman.aspx Also, there are many NEC's for corpsmans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's not about SFAS making you a good PA, SFAS is what you have to pass to become a 18D...I may be mistaken but I saw a list of MOS' now open to women an 18D was on the list. http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/combat.html Hopefully it will become open in the future but "Closed to Women" is currently listed as a restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friction Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Personally, I find it ridiculous that Corpsman and PJ's aren't included in this program. Firstly, Corpsman are the foundation of the PA profession. Secondly, PJs and Corpsman (IDC) are an extremely valuable asset to ignore when considering how medically under served many communities are. I don't buy that 18D are the only medical enlisted personal that can complete PA school and provide capable care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcdavis Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Personally, I find it ridiculous that Corpsman and PJ's aren't included in this program. Firstly, Corpsman are the foundation of the PA profession. Secondly, PJs and Corpsman (IDC) are an extremely valuable asset to ignore when considering how medically under served many communities are. I don't buy that 18D are the only medical enlisted personal that can complete PA school and provide capable care. obviously, they are not. this is, however , a trial program. and UNC and Ft Bragg - home of the snake eaters- are only 40 miles apart. again, I'll bet that they expand the program soon. this is a significant step for military medics... baby steps, man, baby steps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vet-up Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Agreed with rcdavis, vet community shoult support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 this may sound naïve but can you consistently fill a class with qualified persons from such a small group ? There are ALOT Of great medics ... but how many of them want to be and can become good PA's ? I have no idea the answer to this question. It would be a disservice to the profession if they started pumping out unqualified people. And no just because you pass a PA Program and NCCPA does not mean you are all that qualified. I just hope this is not some sort of money maker where the university does this to get some sort of special funding and healthcare suffers. A lot of PA schools increasing numbers these days when they DO NOT have the capacity for it just to increase tuition dollars. This is not my opinion it is well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcdavis Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 this may sound naïve but can you consistently fill a class with qualified persons from such a small group ? There are ALOT Of great medics ... but how many of them want to be and can become good PA's ? I have no idea the answer to this question. It would be a disservice to the profession if they started pumping out unqualified people. And no just because you pass a PA Program and NCCPA does not mean you are all that qualified. I just hope this is not some sort of money maker where the university does this to get some sort of special funding and healthcare suffers. A lot of PA schools increasing numbers these days when they DO NOT have the capacity for it just to increase tuition dollars. This is not my opinion it is well known. Please note that NOT every 18D, or, in the future 8524, 8404 or PJ Will desire to transition from military to PA school. It is something to be desired ( both as an adverb and noun). Those that DO go through the screening process will have to meet the same quals as every one else, but theywill bring to the table something virtually no one but military medics do: THOUSANDS of actual patient TREATMENT Hours. Not shadowing, not being an aid, but, in a very real sense, acting as a limited PA.. history, physical, and treatment. (EMTs come close). And treatment often times under severe situations. Of critically ill, traumatized . As I have repeatedly stated, I will hire these guys over any one else. In my mind, there are none more qualified stepping out of school. Your concern is valid, but only from the point of little exposure to the quality and character of the guys who get to this level of applicant experience. I would put a steak lunch on them doing upper 75th percentile, AS A CLASS, first class, and improving as years go by. Biggest problem I see is the drain on the active duty medic roster... As many active duty guys forgo retirement to become a PA.. I see nothing but improvement in the north Carolina PA new grads... And I'll bet NONE of these guys are hunting for jobs after 4 weeks into didactic. If I have an opening when the gradutate, I will hire them sight unseen, THAT's how strongly I feel about their qualifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 being someone that never worked in the military I will have to defer to your recommendation of them. not being in a large hospital setting I do not meet a lot of PAs with diverse past experiences. it will be interesting to see how this program develops ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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