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DUI before PA school and now facing licensing issues.


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Anybody who acts like they have never driven a vehicle within an hour or two of having a few beers needs to get off their high horse. That's all it takes.

 

A DUI could be an indicator of problem drinking (certainly bad decision-making), kind of like a cough could be an indicator of pertussis. Doesn't necessarily mean it is.

 

I always found it ironic how during PA school half of our class would get black out drunk and stumble down Main St. on a Friday night...or barf the next morning....or bang one of the upper classmen, and nobody batted an eye. But if someone had a DWI or smoked a little weed all of sudden they are a degenerate? Get real.

 

 

Bruce -

 

There is a difference between being on a high horse/scolding people for having done it and being concerned over appropriate judgement.  Nobody should scold or condemn another for, as you say, we all probably have at one time or another. 

 

The specific issues is recognizing it as a problem.  If my colleagues can't recognize obtaining a DUI citation or driving while intoxicated without getting caught as problematic alcohol consumption, then there is a bigger issue than the behavior itself.  The bigger issue is recognizing problematic and dangerous behavior.  If a person can't recognize that, then there are grounds for concern.  That is all I'm saying.   

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Bruce -

 

There is a difference between being on a high horse/scolding people for having done it and being concerned over appropriate judgement.  Nobody should scold or condemn another for, as you say, we all probably have at one time or another. 

 

The specific issues is recognizing it as a problem.  If my colleagues can't recognize obtaining a DUI citation or driving while intoxicated without getting caught as problematic alcohol consumption, then there is a bigger issue than the behavior itself.  The bigger issue is recognizing problematic and dangerous behavior.  If a person can't recognize that, then there are grounds for concern.  That is all I'm saying.   

 

I hear ya. Bad judgment is definitely involved in any DUI, and I suppose if an individual (especially a professional) cant acknowledge that, then there is a deeper problem.

 

It just used to bug me in school because binge drinking was totally acceptable, but we look at someone who got a DUI or other offense as some sort of low-life.

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You aren't a PA, are you? I'm hoping not. Don't mean to be rude or anything, but this attitude is just not acceptable from a medical provider. Driving under the influence, whether you get caught doing it or not, is a big problem. It is problem drinking. It is problem driving. Everything about it is a problem, whether cited for it or not.

 

Is this really a hard concept?

Not sure what "attitude" you are referring to. There are problem drinkers and addicts who will never get a DUI because they are careful not to drive. Should they be providers? There is also the person who attends a bridal shower, has two glasses of wine and gets stopped at a checkpoint on the way home. Are they all unworthy of being medical providers?

FWIW, I won't drive after even a sip of wine and I never drink excessively under any circumstances. My reasons are partly to avoid legal hassles, partly personal responsibility and, partly, health. I always tell young people, especially my kids, to never drive after imbibing alcohol. Will you now consider me a good person worthy of being a provider? Do I now have the "right attitude?"

What about people who drive while a. Eating, b. Talking on the phone, c. Texting, d. Yelling at their spouse, boy/girl friend and or children, e. Angry or emotionally compromised, f. Distracted by a personal loss or failure f. After taking any medication that warns against operating heavy machinery. Should all of these people have their licenses revoked? Or do you consider these activities to reflect the wrong "attitude" only if there is a state or federal law against them? I have never been arrested for anything and haven't even gotten a traffic citation in over 20 years. I have very strict personal and moral standards and live by a set of rules I have written down (yeah, really) but I also recognise that people, even really good people, err in many ways. I am not, however, a Pollyanna and I know the difference between problem drinking and problem driving, and I don't need some holier-than-thou judging my worthiness to be a provider. Nothing personal, of course. :-)

 

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Nothing I said was holier-than-thou. Your post was essentially splitting hairs and trying to divide problem drinking from problem driving and you indicated that it is really only a problem if you get caught.

 

That is a problem attitude. No quotation marks. You can call it a problem opinion if you want; but that doesn't make it any less of a problem.

 

There ought to be no question about how much of a problem a DUI is. And there should be no attempts at clever definitions to make it seem like less of a problem.

 

I am not looking down upon you. I am concerned that someone with your attitude or opinion will represent PAs poorly.

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You aren't a PA, are you?  I'm hoping not.  Don't mean to be rude or anything, but this attitude is just not acceptable from a medical provider.  Driving under the influence, whether you get caught doing it or not, is a big problem.  It is problem drinking.  It is problem driving.  Everything about it is a problem, whether cited for it or not. 

 

Is this really a hard concept? 

To answer your question Acebecker since he didn't care to in his response-

 

According to JohnnyM2's posting history. He is not a PA, not a PA student, not even a pre-PA....Just a parent whose kid is going to PA school :)

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Not sure what "attitude" you are referring to. There are problem drinkers and addicts who will never get a DUI because they are careful not to drive. Should they be providers? There is also the person who attends a bridal shower, has two glasses of wine and gets stopped at a checkpoint on the way home. Are they all unworthy of being medical providers?

This is why we have medical boards; they get to decide. Impaired providers should not be allowed to practice until they are no longer impaired.

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To answer your question Acebecker since he didn't care to in his response-

 

According to JohnnyM2's posting history. He is not a PA, not a PA student, not even a pre-PA....Just a parent whose kid is going to PA school :)

"Not EVEN a PA-S"..."JUST a parent?" I didn't realize this was such an exclusive club that only PAs were welcome to comment. I have made my status clear in previous posts which you obviously read. I haven't pretended to be something I am not. What I am is a huge supporter of this profession trying to learn as much as I can to help advance the profession. BTW I spent most of my career in HC, much of it in surgery. But what does any of that have to do with commenting on DUIs?

Maybe Acebecker and Alyn don't think the PA profession needs supporters. If you guys only want to hear from PAs, just say so. Seems awfully narrow minded to me.

 

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^^^^^^ what did you do in surgery?

Actually, I don't mind answering the question if you can tell me what that has to do with the current discussion regarding DUIs. Suppose I was a neurosurgeon....Suppose I mopped the floors. Does that matter? There is snobbery here that anyone who doesn't have hands on patients has nothing of value to offer. That's what this entire digression is about. Isn't it ?

 

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To be fair, while I was never the guy who mopped floors, I was an ER Tech for a few good years before PA school, and it's not outrageous to say that having responsibility as a clinician is a completely different kind of thing.

 

I was a very good ER Tech, mind you, and there were times I showed initiative and responsibility, and took it upon myself to handle patient- and family-centered tasks and even conversations that I could easily have ducked out of. But at the end of the day, it was the docs and PAs who were responsible for decisions, and the consequences of those decisions. I was a worker bee, or maybe a drone. There's absolutely no shame in that, and it doesn't diminish my contributions at the time. But if I thought I had a sense of the kind of thinking that's required as a clinician, the kind of mindset and ethos, then I was way off.  Things are different when you're the clinician; they just are.

 

Dad-of-a-PA guy, you are absolutely welcome here. Your perspective might be really helpful, in fact. But I can also understand why Paula might be curious about what you did. Your point of view has implications if you were a neurosurgeon, and those might be different if you were the guy mopping the floor. I hope I'm explaining this well enough, and it doesn't sound like elitism. It's not meant to be, and I don't believe it is. It's just that context matters.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Just to be clear, a DUI is NOT problem drinking. It is problem driving (and getting caught while doing it).

 

I have to admit to being somewhat amused by acebecker's consternation about this post which was interpreted as a cavalier acceptance of the dui. If you read my many other posts on this topic elsewhere in the forum you will understand, acebecker, that my view on the matter is not all that different from yours. In one thread, I was roundly criticized for being way too harsh on one dude who had not one, but two, B&E misdemeanors and on supportive posts urging him to continue with his PA ambitions. One thing I learned from that is that I can have my opinion but I am not the misdemeanor Nazi.

What I meant by my post, which you and others, I guess, missed is that it isn't the dui itself (ie getting caught) that matters in the medical profession. You are breaking the law as soon as you get behind the wheel and start the engine with a BAC of 0.8 plus and exercising poor judgement if you drink any alcohol at all before driving. After all 0.8 is an arbitrary number because the law has to have a number and a 0.0 would never pass any legislature. But we all recognize that there is impairment with any BAC and, in the event of an accident, whether you are technically at fault or not, if you are tested with any BAC it is quite likely you will be given a dui and. assigned at least partial legal fault. So if you get a dui, it just means you got caught breaking the law. The real problem is that you broke the law in the first place and it isn't any better, in my opinion, to drive while not breaking the law with a non-zero BAC less than the legal limit. That is what we practice in our house and what we constantly counsel our kids, both of whom are pursuing professional careers. Driving while impaired by other substances or serious distractions is also wrong though legal parameters vary from state to state so I would hope you would not text and drive, eat while driving or drive while emotionally compromised. I further believe that getting smashed by alcohol or drugs and not driving, ergo not getting caught, is a problem because recovery from a serious bender can take awhile and overlap work periods, hence impairing ones ability to function.

Having said all that, a college student who gets a dui in his/her freshman year and gets it expunged (once) should not necessarily be barred from a professional career he/she wasn't even contemplating at that point in their life.

So to summarize, I see problem drinking and other types of regular, serious, impairment as disqualifiers for the medical profession, especially if the impaired person is driving, whether or not they get caught. A dui is just the bad luck of getting caught.

Here is a rhetorical question for you. If you go to a party next Christmas and notice that your SP or one of your colleagues gets in his/her car after four scotches and a glass of wine and refuses to let anyone drive him home will you a. Shake your head and do nothing or b. Call the police and give them his location, make and model of car and plate number? This is just for you and others to think about. No need to answer here. I know you know the right ethical answer, but would you do it?

 

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BruceBanner,

 

Your banging upperclassmen while under the influence does not endanger the lives of my kids when I drive them in my car. Your driving under the influence of any mind-altering substances definitely does. So, yeah, not the same. Duh.

 

And yes, I'd call the cops on my SP or anyone who was driving after drinking that much.

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  • 3 years later...
On 3/26/2013 at 4:29 PM, THE.PA.PAC said:

Not sure if this is the right place to post, and it might do better under state-specific discussion, but I want to keep my situation generalized with regards to geography (and despite my name I am not having trouble getting a license in Pennsylvania).

 

 

A while before PA school (and a total of nearly four years ago) I messed up really badly and earned a DUI for being extremely stupid and selfish. All fines and debts to society have been paid (at least according to my state's court system) and I am no longer on probation for this offense. With that being said, I honestly feel as if I have paid my dues with regards to this issue, but my state's medical board (and probably some of you) feel otherwise as I have been given a probationary license instead of an unrestricted license. (But please make no mistake. I know how fortunate I am to be offered one at all.)

 

 

I don't mind a "trial period" to make sure this sort of infraction won't happen again, but one stipulation of my probationary license worries me: the possibility of "treatment" for this four-year-old offense. In the coming days I will be issued a probationary officer who will set up an appointment with a representative of my state's version of an impaired provider service. From this one meeting, this one person will decide if I need to enter a treatment program at my expense for a period of 2-4 years.

 

 

Now, I have not then nor ever had a drinking problem, and I have no doubt that all testing (hair, urine, blood) for all drug and EtOH biomarkers (AST, ALT, GGT, CDT, MCV) will come back normal, but I am worried that I only get one chance to "prove my case," so to speak. Other than a handful of times in undergrad did I ever drink, and only during the year before PA school did I ever do what could be considered "partying," and even that was very minimal. Was the timing perfect? No. Do I regret my actions? Yes.

 

 

Only one person in my whole family (and absolutely none of my peers or friends) knows about this incident. The private and personal shame is enough, so I don't feel I need to share it. On top of all of this, no one has ever said I should cut down on my drinking or that I "act different" when I drink. The only thing I do now is never put my self in a position to have even one drink and drive (and this is the case even though my court-ordered probation is over and I can have up to the legal limit again). I figure "Why risk it? I have way too much to lose." So I am always designated driver if we go out to restaurants.

 

 

Long story long, I have done everything I can to right this wrong, but I am still concerned with the aforementioned meeting because this one person (again, based on this one meeting) has the power to stick me in a monthly treatment program (which is only offered during week days, so I'd have to miss work, and at a cost > $1000/month) all for an isolated incident that is four years old (and not to mention there is no physiological evidence to support such a claim of substance abuse).

 

 

When I meet with this person I will be honest and won't tweak any details including current alcohol use (which is always social, infrequent at best, and only red wine or good beer), but I just wanted to see if anyone has been through something similar (or maybe someone knows another clinician who has been through something similar).

 

 

I am not looking for sympathy, or the "too bad, so sad you have to jump through hoops...[insert whatever negativity]." I am only looking for advice or anecdotes if anyone will be kind enough to offer them. But if you feel the need to lay it on thick, then by all means.

 

 

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

 

And to pre-PAs, PA students and fellow PA newbies, even though most of us are smart and capable, all it takes is one incredibly stupid lapse in judgment for your whole life to change. Case in point: time from my engine turning over until I see flashing lights (< 1 minute). Be smarter than that.

Hi, I’m currently going through the same thing and being issued a probationary license in CA...Would you be able to outline the process such as what type of drug testing they used (urine/hair), and  how they determined if you needed to do the treatment plan.  Was one of your stipulations to abstain from drinking completely? And did you? I would also love to hear how this has affected your PA career so far and where you’re at now. Thank you so much in advance.

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