Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 19, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 19, 2013 So, I've known for a while that we there is difficulty having a true bridge because of WHO and other regulations stating med school needs to be three years. So how is it that oral surgeons go to dental school for 4 years and then just 2 years to get their MD before going onto a 4 year residency? I realize there are DDS and DMDs who become oral surgeons without the MD degree and only do 4 year dental with a 4 year residency, and I realize that dentists have 4 years of post grad, but it shows that someone who did NOT attend a school of medicine can bridge. How do they get around the three year minimum I've heard about. Maybe I'm assuming but I believe we have more general medical knowledge than a dentist. I'm not complaining they can since they've obviously shown themselves capable. I'm just complaining/curious that we can't get a 2 year bridge with a residency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon, PA-C Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 So, I've known for a while that we there is difficulty having a true bridge because of WHO and other regulations stating med school needs to be three years. So how is it that oral surgeons go to dental school for 4 years and then just 2 years to get their MD before going onto a 4 year residency? I realize there are DDS and DMDs who become oral surgeons without the MD degree and only do 4 year dental with a 4 year residency, and I realize that dentists have 4 years of post grad, but it shows that someone who did NOT attend a school of medicine can bridge. How do they get around the three year minimum I've heard about. Maybe I'm assuming but I believe we have more general medical knowledge than a dentist. I'm not complaining they can since they've obviously shown themselves capable. I'm just complaining/curious that we can't get a 2 year bridge with a residency. The first year of dental school is just about identical to the first year of med school (same histo, embryo, basic science classes) so they get credit for that, giving them 3 total years of "med" school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 20, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted March 20, 2013 So they have the basic sciences (same first year) but the last three years are different, but still only have to do 2 years to get the MD. Still not sure how this is different, time wise, from what PAs should get. We cover enough of the same basic science and clinical application to warrant a specially designed program that could lead to a 2 year bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradopa Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 The first year of dental school is just about identical to the first year of med school (same histo, embryo, basic science classes) so they get credit for that, giving them 3 total years of "med" school. This kind of. There are usually two tracks (at least at our institution). The four year track is a certificate track. It allows you to work as an oral surgeon but does not give you the MD. The MD track seems kind of weird to me but its what most of the programs do. You do one year of residency (mostly surgery I believe) then you go do two years of medical school then you do three more years of residency. I think that they get credit for a year of dental school so they get the 36 months (or the year of "residency" either before or after medical school or both is counted). The way that they credential the residents so they can actually see patients and operate is because they already have a dental license. Basically you need four years of oral surgery residency to get the certificate. You need 36 months of medical school to get the degree. They combine it all into six years. I believe at Penn you start doing clinicals then join the medical school after six months finish the second and third years then go back into residency. Also some program make you take call in residency but then pay you and pay for medical school which makes six years without income more bearable. Either way its six years if you get the MD and oral surgery. Realistically the only thing that the MD gets you is to get into facial plastics and to make it easier to get inpatient privileges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 My roommate is finishing is 3rd year at Tufts Dental School and soon starting his fourth year. Their first two years of school (Basic Sciences) are with the medical students, taking the same exams. In addition to their dental rotations they also do medical rotations with the medical students. This is likely why they can do a DMD->MD bridge without much more formal education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcdavis Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 So they have the basic sciences (same first year) but the last three years are different, but still only have to do 2 years to get the MD. Still not sure how this is different, time wise, from what PAs should get. We cover enough of the same basic science and clinical application to warrant a specially designed program that could lead to a 2 year bridge. I am not sure this is true. Somehow I doubt that, with PA school curricula only, we would be able to do very well on the USMLE step 1. Once again, be interested in hearing primadonna's opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azucardulce Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I have a PhD and will be matriculating into PA school this May. A few years ago, when I started looking into MD programs, I came across some information about a PhD->MD program (2 yrs only) that had existed up into the late 80s. Essentially, someone with a PhD in a biomedical science could go straight into M3 (I'm assuming there were other testing requirements, etc) to get the clinical experience and then compete for a residency. I have yet to find much information on why this option for a path to the MD was arrested, or what types of practitioners came out of those cohorts of individuals. But, every time I see a post about the PA->MD bridge, this comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted March 20, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted March 20, 2013 I am not sure this is true. Somehow I doubt that, with PA school curricula only, we would be able to do very well on the USMLE step 1. Once again, be interested in hearing primadonna's opinion... I know we would do poorly on step 1, but wouldn't you think that a practicing FP PA would do reasonably on step 2? I'm not talking about skipping out of all the first two years. I don't think it would terribly difficult to take a practicing PA, who would need little in the way of H&P and what not, give them the gaps in basic sciences, and some rotations in 2 years. And before anyone gets in a uproar (not speaking to anyone specifically), remember this is all just mental masturbation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplify Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I would tend to agree, USMLE step 2 study guides were/are the text of choice for test prep in my program. Additionally, I would argue that many CURRENT students would fair pretty well on STEP 1, given the changes in PA school admissions demographics over the last decade (for better or worse). I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of incoming students these days have VERY concrete backgrounds in the hard sciences. A number of people in my program have master's degrees in pathology, bio-chem etc. I am not saying that these students would be able to blindly challenge STEP 1, but I do think the current gap might be a fair bit smaller than it is for some of the older PAs who "came up" through an older system more attuned to previous health care experience than pre-reqs. Again, I am not passing judgement on experience vs academics, but the model has changed and this should be considered when discussing bridge programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I am not sure this is true. Somehow I doubt that, with PA school curricula only, we would be able to do very well on the USMLE step 1. Once again, be interested in hearing primadonna's opinion... No way. Step 1 tests all kinds of garbage PAs are never taught because they have no direct influence on patient care. Just pick up a First Aid for USMLE Step 1 and see how far you get before you realize you are in over your head...and that is JUST THE BARE MINIMUM REQUIRED TO PASS. Embryology, histology, deep pathophysiology...not enough to know the bugs, must know the virulence factors of each obscure organism, what genetic quirks enable it to escape the host's immune response or our pharmacotherapy (be specific!), and probably some molecular biology thrown in there for good measure. Differentiate all organisms based on unique biochemical tests (does that grow on charcoal yeast or blood agar? At 4 deg C or 30? What are the intermediate hosts and vectors of infection? Why does it infect this ethnic group but not that, or that age group vs. another?) PAs are perfectly CAPABLE of learning all this step 1 BS. PAs are smart. It just is never taught and would be very difficult to teach yourself without a prior PhD in a life science. Step 2, no problem. In fact I scored 94th percentile on my Family Med shelf exam last summer after having 2 med school rotations and only M1 completed...and a whole lot of hours of primary care and emergency medicine experience as a PA. This is where we PAs shine--in clinical medicine. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 No way. Step 1 tests all kinds of garbage PAs are never taught because they have no direct influence on patient care. Just pick up a First Aid for USMLE Step 1 and see how far you get before you realize you are in over your head...and that is JUST THE BARE MINIMUM REQUIRED TO PASS. Embryology, histology, deep pathophysiology...not enough to know the bugs, must know the virulence factors of each obscure organism, what genetic quirks enable it to escape the host's immune response or our pharmacotherapy (be specific!), and probably some molecular biology thrown in there for good measure. Differentiate all organisms based on unique biochemical tests (does that grow on charcoal yeast or blood agar? At 4 deg C or 30? What are the intermediate hosts and vectors of infection? Why does it infect this ethnic group but not that, or that age group vs. another?)PAs are perfectly CAPABLE of learning all this step 1 BS. PAs are smart. It just is never taught and would be very difficult to teach yourself without a prior PhD in a life science. ;) Daayyuummm!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 ^^Cute. I'll sum it up the best way I know how: a great majority of preclinical medicine that is tested on Step I is esoteric bull**** that some PhDs think is important for doctors to know. I spent my first 6 mos of med school learning to think like a PhD (what does this particular professor think is important to test me on?)...incidentally, I had to learn to STOP thinking like a PA and set aside real world knowledge of how medicine is actually practiced to succeed on exams. When I did that, my grades got much better. It's all part of the game ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsfelder0417 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Thanks for the input, Prima, and I hope you are enjoying Med school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trident Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 My gf goes to dental school; its a LOT harder than any PA program out there. 22 credits a semester, non stop didactic courses, lab and manual dexterity work. Plus DDS students get graded and that determines their residencies i.e general, endo, OMFS, etc. Med students work on a P/F system, take classes from 8am to 1pm and seem to be happier than the dental students at her university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Only 22 credits? Please. My first semester of med school was 40. I ain't lyin'...I think this semester (4th) is about 35...feels "light" LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trident Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 40 credits = 40 hours per week? Med students work hard thats for sure, but 40 sounds like something you're just making up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEN Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Only 22 credits? Please. My first semester of med school was 40. I ain't lyin'...I think this semester (4th) is about 35...feels "light" LOL Wow, 40 credits? Where do you find the time for 2,965 posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Haha, I wish. It's much more typical than you think. 9-1 classes are rare. Let me see if I can recall... Fall 2011: Human Gross Anatomy 11 cr Biochemistry I 3 cr Histology 1 cr Embryology 2 cr Healthcare Management 1 cr History & Physical I 3 cr Microbiology/Immunology 3 cr Osteopathic Principles & Practice I 4 cr Physiology I 3 cr ....well, that was 34 I guess. Funny they always say "40 credits"...certainly felt like it. Btw my PA program was usually 20-22 cr/semester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trident Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 what med school is this? I've never heard of Gross having that many credits unless it was combined with Physio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 25, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2013 what med school is this? I've never heard of Gross having that many credits unless it was combined with Physio? prima is in the first 3 yr pa to do bridge class at lecom....I almost joined her...couldn't swing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 LECOM...osteopathic school. Anatomy is supreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Wow, 40 credits? Where do you find the time for 2,965 posts? My post history goes back 8 yr. I have very little time lately ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 P.S. I WISH we were P/F. A, B, C, and F. I'm a pretty solid B average but I've made peace with that as my retention is very good and my practice board exams are better than average. I work 2 Saturdays a month, taught a class at the local PA program last semester and until we finished the season 2 wk ago sang soprano with the philharmonic chorus. I don't watch TV, my husband is not here and I'm used to being busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trident Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 xzczxc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Sneaky? Get over yourself. I don't know ANYONE with those stats. Published minimums are minimums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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