Joelseff Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 My bad..I don't know why I assumed you had to be actually serving in the military to be a medic.. Maybe I should work in the military:) If I can't get HCE any other way You do have to serve to be a military medic..... Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 If you are asking, you haven't been paying attention to the product over the years.[/quote I had an idea of what you were trying to say but now I know for sure. And as usual, I find your comments to be extremely unprofessional, sextist and frankly quite disgusting. if you referring to the feminization of the profession you owe every female PA on this forum an apology. If it wasn't for the female PA's stepping up to the plate in the late 1980s and early 90s filling positions for the PA programs,when males went running to the high tech industry and business, this profession would've went to the wayside. Once again you've shown your ignorance and your true lack of understanding of our role and responsibility in the delivery of health care in this country. I'm sure glad I never had to practice along side someone with your attitude. I love this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 That's not exactly correct, what he was referring to was his experience with Dr. Amos Johnson and Henry Lee “Buddy” Treadwell, http://pahx.org/treadwell-henry-lee-buddy, actually Dr. Stead attempted to start a nurse practitioner program at Duke University prior to starting the PA program. He got the idea of using ex-corpsmen because some of his colleagues were using them to run specialty units at the hospital at Duke University, http://www.mpfpmc.org/index_files/Page826.htm. I actually had the honor and pleasure of meeting Dr. Stead in the early 1980s and again in the late 1990s because of my involvement within AAPA, he was very interesting and humble individual and I took some time to read about his history as a physician, administrator and educator. I believe you could also find that quote in the book Just Say For Me, which was written by 2 residents the trained that they documented 342 “Steadisms”, a very interesting read. BTW - I was discharged from the Air Force in September 8, 1972, I was an aircraft mechanic, and was enrolled in the Surgeon's Assistant Program at the Cuyahoga Community College in Ohio on September 12. There were 2 other individuals in my class of 25 students that did not have previous experience and I will admit the first few months was intense, especially because we were not used to being in school for a long time. We are a very cohesive group and the other students rallied around us to help with our studies and in clinical rotations. 15/25 graduated, 2/3 with no previous experience both had over 3.5 GPA, only 6/10 of the ex-military corpsmen finished the program, 2 dropped out within the first 6 months and return to the military, the other 2 did not make it past the first semester academically. 40 years later, 2012, all 15 graduates of that program have had outstanding careers and are highly respected professionals in their communities. How do you feel, or how would you compare your life experience as a veteran during active war, to a student going from high school, to college, to PA school with limited exposure to life outside the rigors of academia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 How do you feel, or how would you compare your life experience as a veteran during active war, to a student going from high school, to college, to PA school with limited exposure to life outside the rigors of academia? First of all thanks for asking. During my time, your correct, having had experience as a Vietnam veteran even though I was not a medic did help, and that high school student did not make it past the first semester. Today however, with all the programs in Ohio at the Masters degree level my experience is that because the students without previous HCE are 20-24 years old, have a GPA 3-3.5, and carrying a lot of debt already they're pretty focused and know what they want. They don't screw around, I have not been disappointed. I will admit there is a little more handholding but not anymore than I have to do with some of the young residence I had to deal with. And unlike some of my esteem colleagues on this forum I have seen some of these individuals grow to be very competent professionals that I would not hesitate having any of my family receive care. I find the issue that individuals who have a problem with PAs and PA students that did not have previous HCE is that those individuals lack tolerance and patience, and often I've had a hard time working with them. Just my observations. I hope that answers your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 http://pahx.org/sites/default/files/Stead%20Letter%201964.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 http://pahx.org/sites/default/files/Stead%20Letter%201964.pdf Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I wonder why he didn't sign the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 I don't dispute that folks without experience can turn into quality pa's. they can. but it is a much steeper learning curve and if they end up in a place not willing to teach they are in trouble(and dangerous to their pts). anyone can become a great pa given a good first sp and/or good pa colleagues who love to teach and are interested in their future as a clinician. too often today new grads are thrown into positions outside of academic medical ctrs where they run the office by themselves, solo staff an er, etc without any mentor present and a doc just rubber stamping their charts without any feedback at all. I was very fortunate to have significant prior hce AND had a great first job at a place with a residency program. my sp was the residency director and told me day 1 he would treat me like a new intern and he did. my second yr there I was in charge of teaching a procedures course to the incoming interns. my third yr there I left for an opportunity for a better scope of practice. I had great mentors from day 1. even as an er tech I was able to work with Dr. Sadler, one of the founders of the pa profession, for 4 years. My sp's as a pa for the most part have been excellent teachers. some are still friends after I moved on to new jobs. I have left jobs due to changes in sp's to folks who were not pa friendly in the past and always sought first for the best learning experiences and scope of practice and let money be a secondary consideration(my last move cost me probably 50k/yr but I am now at a no hassle place working as a solo clinician.) I think eventually there will be a requirement that pa's do an "internship/postgrad/pick a name year" to get everyone on the same page, both those with and those without prior hce. mandatory caq's won't be far behind to work in specialties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 http://pahx.org/sites/default/files/Stead%20Letter%201964.pdf " in the beginning we would like to concentrate on those with experience in the military or va hospitals"..... sounds like an excellent idea that is coming back into fashion, and none too soon at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 If you are asking, you haven't been paying attention to the product over the years.[/quote I had an idea of what you were trying to say but now I know for sure. I won't speak for Adams but don't believe he was talking about the trend towards females as pa's( a trend I have no problem with as long as they have prior hce) but rather a trend towards much younger and inexperienced applicants of both genders with very little life experience outside of college. too often people use the arguement that doctors don't need prior hce but they don't mention that they have a mandatory 3 yr min training program before they are set loose on their own. with a required/mandatory internship yr for pa's I would be much more open to folks with no prior hce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I won't speak for Adams but don't believe he was talking about the trend towards females as pa's( a trend I have no problem with as long as they have prior hce) but rather a trend towards much younger and inexperienced applicants of both genders with very little life experience outside of college. if the admissions committee at every program, and especially the program I attended, would be this narrow minded individuals like myself would never get into the program. There such a demand for our services that we should not shut out enthusiastic, intelligent, committed individuals just because they do not have previous HCE. I think I said enough on this subject unless someone comes up with some been entirely new or off-the-wall. Thanks again for a great debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 I think we are both blinded by our prior personal experiences. I had hce and went to a program that expected it and I thought it made all the difference. you had life experience but no hce so didn't see it as crucial because you ended up doing ok( don't know if you struggled as a new grad or not). we won't ever agree about this and the profession won't ever commit to one model over the other so there will always be programs willing to take folks right out of high school and programs requiring 2+ yrs of paid hce. I work with a lot of new grads and find myself as a mentor to all kinds of folks. Once someone is in the profession they are my colleague and I will strive to make them the best pa I can but will still try to influence selection at the beginning of the process as will you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 if the admissions committee at every program, and especially the program I attended, would be this narrow minded individuals like myself would never get into the program. There such a demand for our services that we should not shut out enthusiastic, intelligent, committed individuals just because they do not have previous HCE. I think I said enough on this subject unless someone comes up with some been entirely new or off-the-wall. Thanks again for a great debate. So those same ADCOMS that decide those with significant HCE and a lower GPA aren't worthy of even an interview aren't equally as narrow-minded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 So those same ADCOMS that decide those with significant HCE and a lower GPA aren't worthy of even an interview aren't equally as narrow-minded? adcoms made up today of mostly those without prior experience themselves....there are plenty of great applicants out there. we shut them out when we said they had to have a prior bs degree. all the medics, nurses(with adn's), rt's, etc who filled pa programs 20 years ago are now pursuing other fields at the bs level.....biggest mistake the profession ever made. fortunately a handful of programs are staying true to our roots...I will always look at folks from these programs before those without experience when I have my say in the hiring process....I will train whoever we end up with but want to start out with the best person day 1 out of school..not someone with the potential to be a great pa in a few years....the first pt on the first day matters....don't think I am against masters degrees, I'm not. I am against only accepting those with a bs. I would have no problem with admitting someone with an a.s. and giving them an m.s. 2.5 yrs later...there are a few programs that have done this in the past....the credits certainly warrant it. the np's have options for adn to dnp and we don't have very many options to capture similar student populations without a bs...something for those in education to think about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 adcoms made up today of mostly those without prior experience themselves....there are plenty of great applicants out there. we shut them out when we said they had to have a prior bs degree. all the medics, nurses(with adn's), rt's, etc who filled pa programs 20 years ago are now pursuing other fields at the bs level.....biggest mistake the profession ever made. fortunately a handful of programs are staying true to our roots...I will always look at folks from these programs before those without experience when I have my say in the hiring process....I will train whoever we end up with but want to start out with the best person day 1 out of school..not someone with the potential to be a great pa in a few years....the first pt on the first day matters....don't think I am against masters degrees, I'm not. I am against only accepting those with a bs. I would have no problem with admitting someone with an a.s. and giving them an m.s. 2.5 yrs later...there are a few programs that have done this in the past....the credits certainly warrant it. the np's have options for adn to dnp and we don't have very many options to capture similar student populations without a bs...something for those in education to think about.... ATSU has a non bachelors MS program. You need a pre pa AA/AS and an AS in PA.... Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 atsu has a non bachelors ms program. You need a pre pa aa/as and an as in pa.... Sent from my mytouch_4g_slide using tapatalk pacific had an a.s. To m.s. Bridge a few years ago but i think they phased it out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 http://www.nccpa.net/continuingmedicaleducation.aspx Seems annoying. Why do PA's have to renew their license every 2 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Seems annoying. Why do PA's have to renew their license every 2 years? Because state governments LOVE money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just about every profession with a license does....even physicians. If I have to renew just to drive a car, Im ok with having to renew to treat patients :-) Seems annoying. Why do PA's have to renew their license every 2 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futurePAS Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 ATSU has a non bachelors MS program. You need a pre pa AA/AS and an AS in PA.... Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Where do you see this? I'm on their website right now and it's the first thing they state, is a required BA. http://www.atsu.edu/ashs/programs/physician_assistant/admission_requirements.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Where do you see this? I'm on their website right now and it's the first thing they state, is a required BA. http://www.atsu.edu/ashs/programs/physician_assistant/admission_requirements.htm It's under bachelors degree equivalency....something or other....I'm a current student and 3 qtrs away from my masters....I have no Bachelors.... Here: http://www.atsu.edu/ashs/online_programs/physician_assistant/index.htm You were in the entry level PA page. I'm a practicing PA and this is a masters program for post grads.... Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 I think there are a couple other postgrad options for those without a bs to get an ms(touro?). anyway, what I would like to see is an a.s. to m.s. entry level program to get all those medics/nurses/rt's back into the pa profession in large numbers. they are, and always will be, the soul of this profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 A little perspective on the HCE topic....which has been kicked to death. I was/am always a very typical pro-HCE type of student; twenty years as a military medic with a slightly lower than average GPA (PA standards). I targeted my applications towards schools with high HCE requirements but I also threw in a few "wildcards"; schools that had no HCE requirements at all. I did this because there were a couple of these schools that would be better for my family due to location. Of the four interview invites I have received, three were from schools that had little to no HCE requirements. Why me? My science GPA is only 3.3 and many of my classes had to be online due to my work. These programs seemed primed to accept young, fresh out of undergrad, Bio/Biochem majors with blazing GPA's. In other words....not me. I attended two of the interviews and asked the question. The answer I got was diversity within the class. Both programs told me that they did indeed want the fresh out of undergrad students, therefore no HCE requirement, but they also want the experienced applicants as well. Both programs stated that they wanted the students to feed off of each other. The students with a more science based education help the students who don't....students with a ton of HCE help students without it for practical stuff. They even stated they valued having a few of the more mature students (old heads....me) in the class just for life perspective. I was suprized, and happy. Even happier when I was accepted into a program that I never thought I would even be considered for. It takes all sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 So those same ADCOMS that decide those with significant HCE and a lower GPA aren't worthy of even an interview aren't equally as narrow-minded? GatorRTT - it goes without saying, the admissions process to apply for the PA programs is very competitive. I've been involved in this process at a couple different institutions and you can have upwards as many as 500-600 or more applicant for 35-50 positions. As the years have gone by the one factor that has also crept up is the cost of tuition. Some of these individuals with extensive HCE and low GPA really have no business applying for PA school because a review of their educational history will often demonstrate they were marginal students in their other programs, that's why they have a low GPA to begin with. As I said in an earlier post we had several individuals in my class that had previous HCE that didn't make it out of the first semester because they couldn't make grades. With tuition being upwards to $30,000 per year, bringing a student in with a low GPA into PA programs that are quite rigorous you are not only setting them up for failure academically but also financially. Now if you want to call that narrow minded, so be it! I like this last post. We need diversity in the classroom, student bodies made up of a mixture of both individuals with previous HCE and those that are academically gifted and have a willingness and desire to want to be in this profession. Let's move forward and start filling the demand for our professional service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2012 The "low gpa " folks I am talking about are not folks with a C avg but folks who got mostly B's and a few A's as undergrads and have gpa's like 3.2 or 3.3. surely these folks have the academic chops to do well in a pa program considering many of them got that gpa while working full time and raising a family as opposed to the 3.8+ gpa student without experience who has never had a job or responsibilities outside of school before. an experienced medic I work with now has a bs with a 3.2 and has been through the cycle 3 times without an interview because she doesn't make the gpa cut off each time while 22 yr olds with no life experience and a 3.8 waltz right in. she got that 3.2 working full time and taking classes nights and weekends while a single mom to a small child. something wrong with that. she would make a great pa but we will never know because she decided to pursue something else after 3 attempts to become a pa. There needs to be some balance in the process. grades aren't the only factor, hce should be weighted at least as heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.