Joelseff Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 This is one of the best posts ever on the forum! X2 Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I don't get why a PA would want someone to shadow them. It seems like they would just get in the way. Im having trouble finding an opportunity for shadowing/volunteering for HCE. Im actually considering asking my PCP's PA at my next doctor's appointment lol does anyone have any suggestions? I don't even have my AA yet so I doubt I could get a job in direct patient care.. I never shadowed a PA, but did get to shadow a lot of other healthcare providers (MDs in various specialties, PTs, LMT, counselors, etc.) at a free clinic I volunteered at. I found it difficult to find PAs to shadow also. The PAs and their supervising physicians would have let me, but there was always admin that thought it was a hassle or had a long list of people wanting to shadow. I may still be on a few waiting lists. I had lots of healthcare experience working directly with PAs who wrote me recommendations and I felt it was unnecessary to shadow one, so I didn't try too hard. I did benefit from shadowing other professions in healthcare to see the differences, and I truly believe that volunteering at a clinic like that is an invaluable experience, and helped me answer a few interview questions. It was easy to shadow when there was time because the patients didn't ever mind, I just stayed out of the way in the room, and helped them with things (getting info/supplies they needed or help with f/u scheduling, etc.) so I don't think the professionals ever minded. They could have always said no when we asked, but they never did. Try to find a free clinic in your area and be willing to volunteer in any position. My EMT was expired so I did front desk work, but it got me in for shadowing and I enjoy volunteering. If you have the money or can raise some, you could go on a mission trip. My college has a global medical brigade and we went to Honduras for a week to provide treatment for a village. There were two PAs that went on the trip that offered to let any of us shadow them, and said if we shadowed for a while and they liked us they would give LOR. I didn't do it because of distance, but it was an opportunity. I think you should get a lot of HCE, which will most likely require a certification, but as mentioned previously many schools will let you in without it these days. Also, go ahead and ask any PA you meet, even if its at a doctor's appointment. They will say no if they want to, or if there is some conflict, but they might have suggestions of other people in your area. Also try this site: http://pashadowonline.com/ As far as why they would let you shadow them: They love their job and want to share what it is and how it works with others. They know what it's like to be an applicant. They are nice and work in a position where it isn't a hassle. The PAs I worked closely with in the army loved teaching me new things, wanted to help me become a PA, and thought I would be a good one, so I'm sure people like them would gladly help students if they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I got my "shadowing" experience working in an environment that allowed me to see PAs all day every day (at least every day that I worked). This is how I learned of the profession and eventually made my way towards it. With that said, I worked there for 3 years and researched the profession and thats how I came to the conclusion that the profession was right for me. I seriously doubt I would have learned the same things by working as a server somewhere and spending 2 hours a day following around a PA a couple times over the weekend. I honestly do not see a HUGE learning experience in shadowing, you cant see everything in 40 hours of shadowing, you cant learn a professions in hours of shadowing. Just reading the forums you can tell that some people with 100s of hours shadowing still don't have a clue what a PA really is or does. When asked did I "shadow" a PA, my answer in interviews was always "No I did not, however my healthcare experience provided me with an opportunity to work in environments with PAs and I had the ability to see them in action everyday at work and ask questions....it was my work experience that lead me to the profession and eventually to this moment right here". Only one program asked me if I felt shadowing was a waste of time, I told them the same thing I said above....you cant decide if a profession is right for you after following someone around for a couple hours a day, constant exposure works best....I now attend that program. IMHO shadowing wont tell you if youre going to like being a PA and it certainly wont tell you if youre going to like working in healthcare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I don't. I actually make it difficult for them to do so-- they must do HIPAA training through the hospital, and pass the same background check the other entry-level hospital employees do. I make them send me a current CV and a letter of intent outlining why PA, what they hope to get out of the shadowing experience, and why they are asking me for this privilege.It DOES slow me down. So why waste time on someone I wouldn't recommend for PA school? :) Great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 with > 1000 hrs of paid hce oh changing the sheets all day doesn't count, eh? just glad they let me do some procedures, although i did have my emt and was pre-pa, so maybe that's why. i was at almost 3000 hours in by that point anyways, since i was 20. i started school at 30; never went to high school, never knew college would ever be an option for someone like me and dove in at 30 as soon as i learned about loans. just had always wanted to be in the hospital. my last er before pa school went all out for me. they put me through the last wringer, tho i had been putting myself through them already. very grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2012 oh changing the sheets all day doesn't count, eh? nope, candy stripper doesn't cut it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 nope, candy stripper doesn't cut it.... maybe those who aren't altruistic don't cut it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ha.. ironic choice of forum name maybe? I had well over the minimum for HCE, so I didn't shadow because I needed to (and as stated above, no it does not count anyway). I shadowed because I was excited about medicine and wanted to see what the hell a PA does. I think this is absolutely a terrible attitude. I actually got so much from my shadowing experiences, and was able to ask questions and see procedures long before I had even been accepted into school. I found excellent mentorship and could go into school being confident that I was making the right choice. Also, when we had our first Friday morning rotations (we start with 1/2 day rotations the second week of didactic year), I knew what to except and came prepared. I participated in a formal shadowing program at St. Luke's Hospital in Bethlehem (the same hospital that has an ER and Trauma Surgery/ ICU fellowship) - I was able to see neurosurgery, trauma, ER, cardiology, radiology, primary care, ENT, pediatrics, etc a year and a half before I started PA school - and why? because a bunch of awesome PA's took the time to give me as a student the opportunity. It probably didn't do a thing for them, but it made a huge difference for me. I will absolutely take students when I'm a PA - our Friday morning rotations (which are sort of like shadowing on steriods our first semester) has helped keep me going and excited. I understand that it's probably a pain, and that some people certainly have limitations and can't, but I'm so grateful that our PA community in this area is willing to do it. Ha okay I admit the name of the thread is pretty deceptive..;) YES this is exactly how I feel I am SO excited to shadow some PA's!!! And even though it might be a drag to have kids follow me around at work I will let PA wannabe's shadow me. You are so lucky to have that experience! You sound like you are gonna make an excellent PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Thank you all for your stories and suggestions. I feel more confident in my decision to pursue paid HCE even though my "goal school" doesn't require it. I also plan on doing some really short-term shadowing with a couple PA's in different fields. After reading all these posts I think HCE and shadowing are both valuable to a pre-PA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 I predict that when I am a PA I won't mind having a shadow now and then if I am not in too busy of a practice because it'll be nice to have a fresh-faced young kid who is excited about medicine and wants to know more about my profession. Also, PAs can claim CME credits for having a shadow, and for me to explain things to a shadow is more fun than JAAPA quizzes. Sorry what are CME credits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Why would you call yourself that? Confidence, even when you are feeling SUPER vulnerable, will open more doors for you than anything else in the world. Your first post was centered on you feeling like you would be in the way, then you call yourself weak. Perhaps being self deprecating has worked for you in the past, perhaps you're overly shy, I don't know but personally I struggle to find the energy to pull someone out of the shadows and essentially spoon feed them when there are dozens more motivated people knocking on the door with their own spoon in hand. People mentor others because it is fun to see the positive energy of youthful exuberance. Positive energy is infectious, motivating, and exciting. Be that person that mentors want to see come in the next day. I am just being honest and realistic (and trying to be funny maybe). PA's don't really get anything out of having people shadow them. And I am 5'1 and 100 pounds. Not exactly an ideal candidate for the military. I am confident that I will do whatever it takes to become a PA (working full time right now, keeping gpa close to perfect, and living on my own supporting myself) Im not depressed or unmotivated, but even when I do get sad I always stay positive and keep a smile on my face. Im sorry if I came across as whiny or as someone with no confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I am just being honest and realistic (and trying to be funny maybe). PA's don't really get anything out of having people shadow them. And I am 5'1 and 100 pounds. Not exactly an ideal candidate for the military. Not trying to get you to sign up or anything, but one of the best medics I ever worked with was about 5'3" and 100 lbs wet. She took no crap from anyone; nor was she given any. It takes all sorts. Don't sell yourself short....no pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackjacks Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Sorry what are CME credits? http://www.nccpa.net/continuingmedicaleducation.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 What association grants you the Cert for the CME? Or are you saying we can get Cat 2 CME for shadowing, if that's the case,no thanks. Oh to the OP, I worked with an HM3 (Corpsman) who was noore than 4'11" and maybe 90 lbs. Who was a tough cookie and outdone some of us guys during PRT (physical readiness tests) Regarding shadowing: If you really want to be a PA, you gotta have skin in the game. Get your feet wet dive into medicine in some capacity. Don't shortcut your way in by checking boxes. I use all of my past experience on top of my PA education everyday in practice. Experience is always the best teacher and you can never have too much. Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 ...but he was talking about navy corpsmen, not inexperienced applicants... That's not exactly correct, what he was referring to was his experience with Dr. Amos Johnson and Henry Lee “Buddy” Treadwell, http://pahx.org/treadwell-henry-lee-buddy, actually Dr. Stead attempted to start a nurse practitioner program at Duke University prior to starting the PA program. He got the idea of using ex-corpsmen because some of his colleagues were using them to run specialty units at the hospital at Duke University, http://www.mpfpmc.org/index_files/Page826.htm. I actually had the honor and pleasure of meeting Dr. Stead in the early 1980s and again in the late 1990s because of my involvement within AAPA, he was very interesting and humble individual and I took some time to read about his history as a physician, administrator and educator. I believe you could also find that quote in the book Just Say For Me, which was written by 2 residents the trained that they documented 342 “Steadisms”, a very interesting read. BTW - I was discharged from the Air Force in September 8, 1972, I was an aircraft mechanic, and was enrolled in the Surgeon's Assistant Program at the Cuyahoga Community College in Ohio on September 12. There were 2 other individuals in my class of 25 students that did not have previous experience and I will admit the first few months was intense, especially because we were not used to being in school for a long time. We are a very cohesive group and the other students rallied around us to help with our studies and in clinical rotations. 15/25 graduated, 2/3 with no previous experience both had over 3.5 GPA, only 6/10 of the ex-military corpsmen finished the program, 2 dropped out within the first 6 months and return to the military, the other 2 did not make it past the first semester academically. 40 years later, 2012, all 15 graduates of that program have had outstanding careers and are highly respected professionals in their communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 A major symptom of the wussification of this profession in my opinion ! what do you mean by "wussification"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I often precepted PA students but never let someone shadow because of the admin hurdles and patient's concerns. It was easier to get patient consent and introduce someone as a student than someone who is just observing. The current trend of not requiring significant HCE does not bode well for the profession. I feel this is being pushed by the plethora of new PA programs that are nothing more than cash cows for the institutions that run them and they can charge graduate school tuition. Being a PA is much more than academic knowledge. One of the reasons Dr Stead started the first PA program was not only to take advantage of ex corpsmen/medics knowledge but their maturity,judement and life experience. I want PAs who know what they know, and more importantly, know what they don't know. That judgement and maturity doesn't come out of a book or shadowing for 40 hrs or less. KCMA79 – it’s not that I don't disagree with some of the issues that you've raise but the reality is the proliferation of new PA program are being driven by the demand for PA services and the academic centers have taken advantage of the situation. I'm not sure where you practice but in our area the Cleveland Clinic for instance employs over 250 PAs and has openings for 30 more positions. Our job board for our association in Ohio posts 20-25 jobs on a monthly basis. We have opened 2 new programs in Ohio in the last 5 years and there are 3 new programs expected to open within the next 2-3 years. I sat on the steering committee of the Tri-C/Cleveland State PA program and we dropped our mandatory HCE requirement, added retain a 40 hour shadowing requirement only on applicants that do not have any previous HCE. 2 reasons -1) fewer individuals with HCE applied to the programs, Masters level training will very soon be written as a mandatory element of the ARC-PA, there are programs being developed to fast-track ex-military and individuals without BS degrees in to these programs, we are seeing an increase in the number of younger, very intelligent, very enthusiastic and energetic individuals applying for the program 2) mandatory shadowing for individuals without previous HCE give some assurance that the applicant has investigated the PA profession and has some understanding of the workings of the healthcare system. I agree with you that is much more difficult now than it is has ever been to bring in non-students/observer, but if we are going to be able to keep this profession competitive in the future with our counterparts the APN's we are all going to have to do our part to make that happen. And we have to work just is hard when all these new programs opened to be preceptors for student PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Just to add my two cents... I do NOT think that shadowing should be required for entrance to PA school, and I fully believe that good quality HCE is necessary to be a great PA. However, if you aren't getting exposure to PAs through your HCE, shadowing is important for being familiar with what a PA is. I have worked as CNA, an MA, and as a tissue procurement technician, adding up to around 6000 hours, and I never worked with PAs in any of those jobs. It took discovering the profession and shadowing PAs, joining PA societies, and lengthy discussions with all the PAs I encountered to determine that being a PA was the right path for me. I sought out volunteer opportunities in free clinics where there were PAs, and volunteered with PA programs in the area. I ended up shadowing 6 different PAs in different settings so that I could see what PAs do in a variety of fields. I do NOT think that shadowing is worthless, but I also don't believe that it is sufficient experience to prepare one for PA school. The PAs that I shadowed (with the exception of one) got me excited about the field and the community within the profession and I wouldn't take back any of the hours I spent shadowing. I plan to allow students to shadow in the future because I think it plays an important role for some students in their path to becoming a PA. Again, just my $.02, but I hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Just to add my two cents... I do NOT think that shadowing should be required for entrance to PA school, and I fully believe that good quality HCE is necessary to be a great PA. I'm sorry but this is the most insulting and uninformed statement that I have ever seen on this forum by a pre-PA. By your own admission you have not spent that much time with PAs. You don't possess the qualifications to make those observations and I know about 9000+ PAs that would prove you wrong. I have no problem with individuals like yourself coming to this forum and asking questions about the profession but you have neither the credentials nor have earned the privilege of the floor to make such ridiculous declarations. I had zero HCE prior to being accepted into the program in 1972, I would be proud to tell you of all the accomplishments, recognition and awards I received, however, without being accused of patting myself on the back, all I will tell you is that I have done very, very well in this profession over the past 40 years, as have many of my colleagues that I have had the distinct honor and pleasure to practice with over those years that also had no previous HCE, all of them I would consider “GREAT PAs”. There has been some statements made on this forum by practicing PAs that I would dispute as to the quality of care of individuals who had no previous HCE and quite frankly our experience in the facility I practiced in was quite different. We had individuals whose first concern was taking care of patients and because of this over time they became highly qualified provider. And it didn't take that long. We all work together to ensure that happen. Sometimes those individuals with previous HCE got in trouble because of their cocky attitude of thinking they knew more than they really did. You need to concentrate on getting admitted to the program, working hard on your studies and then practicing diligently to be a great PA, which doesn't happen overnight. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I imagine a big benefit to shadowing for someone with no HCE is to find out if they even want to get the HCE. It's a lot easier to shadow someone for a day than spend months getting an EMT to start working. I didn't find the PA profession through shadowing, but it only took me 2 hours on a police ride-along after over a year of volunteering at a sheriff's office in high school to make me realize I would prefer something other than being a police officer. That "shadowing" experience may have saved me a lot of time. I'm very glad I didn't join the army as an MP. Maybe after a few days of shadowing you'll realize you would rather be a PT, MD/DO, nurse, or something unrelated to healthcare altogether, saving yourself a lot of time. Also, I'm 5'1 and was a female medic in the army. I went on combat patrols with a platoon of infantrymen, and I don't think my size made a difference in my abilities. That being said, women can have a rough time in the military if they are with the wrong type of people, and it's not something I would recommend for anyone who is so uncertain that they would be able to handle it. There are many other ways to gain very valuable experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I apologize for offending you. By my statement I was trying to show that, though I can't know because I'm not a PA, my post wasn't meant to contradict others who said HCE was important and shadowing shouldn't be required for admission. Therefore, I said I believed their previous posts. There seem to be a couple of viewpoints on this thread, one being that HCE is vital to becoming a good PA and that shadowing doesn't do anything for you. In my perspective, when I see these statements as a pre-PA, I might be able to believe that HCE is necessary to make great PAs, but I don't buy into the fact that shadowing does nothing for some people, even if it shouldn't be required for admission. That was all - I wasn't trying to make any sweeping assessment of PAs with no HCE, just trying to follow the logic of previous posters. I have, at this point, spent hundreds of hours with PAs, even if I haven't been paid to word with them, in the avenues that I mentioned above. I have researched the profession and prepared myself for the rigor ahead of me. I have been accepted to PA school, and I will begin next summer. You are right, however, in that I have a long way to go. I'll take to heart your message that a lot goes into becoming a great provider, including reining in over-confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I often precepted PA students but never let someone shadow because of the admin hurdles and patient's concerns. It was easier to get patient consent and introduce someone as a student than someone who is just observing. The current trend of not requiring significant HCE does not bode well for the profession. I feel this is being pushed by the plethora of new PA programs that are nothing more than cash cows for the institutions that run them and they can charge graduate school tuition. Being a PA is much more than academic knowledge. One of the reasons Dr Stead started the first PA program was not only to take advantage of ex corpsmen/medics knowledge but their maturity,judgment and life experience. I want PAs who know what they know, and more importantly, know what they don't know. That judgment and maturity doesn't come out of a book or shadowing for 40 hrs or less. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!! The incestuous cabal of money for grad school and demand for PA School seats is eroding the core principles of the profession's origin! I don't want to hear about what you watched.......I want to know what you have actually done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 A major symptom of the wussification of this profession in my opinion ! what do you mean by "wussification"? If you are asking, you haven't been paying attention to the product over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Not trying to get you to sign up or anything, but one of the best medics I ever worked with was about 5'3" and 100 lbs wet. She took no crap from anyone; nor was she given any. It takes all sorts. Don't sell yourself short....no pun intended. I know there are tiny women who are muscular and tough. I should've just said it isn't for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 what do you mean by "wussification"? If you are asking, you haven't been paying attention to the product over the years.[/quote I had an idea of what you were trying to say but now I know for sure. And as usual, I find your comments to be extremely unprofessional, sextist and frankly quite disgusting. if you referring to the feminization of the profession you owe every female PA on this forum an apology. If it wasn't for the female PA's stepping up to the plate in the late 1980s and early 90s filling positions for the PA programs,when males went running to the high tech industry and business, this profession would've went to the wayside. Once again you've shown your ignorance and your true lack of understanding of our role and responsibility in the delivery of health care in this country. I'm sure glad I never had to practice along side someone with your attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.