Why would you want some kid to shadow you?

[mrsmojorisin]

I don't get why a PA would want someone to shadow them. It seems like they would just get in the way. Im having trouble finding an opportunity for shadowing/volunteering for HCE. Im actually considering asking my PCP's PA at my next doctor's appointment lol does anyone have any suggestions? I don't even have my AA yet so I doubt I could get a job in direct patient care..

[SocialMedicine]

I would never have someone shadow me. I have a busy schedule and a private practice where people are not paying to have observations. I would be concerned about liability as well... would need to research how to protect myself and make sure the person could demonstrate HIPAA credentials.

[mrsmojorisin]

I would never have someone shadow me. I have a busy schedule and a private practice where people are not paying to have observations. I would be concerned about liability as well... would need to research how to protect myself and make sure the person could demonstrate HIPAA credentials.

 

I respect that, and thank you for your response.. Im just wondering how PA's (who didn't start out with a career in healthcare) got HCE as undergrads

[Just Steve]

I respect that, and thank you for your response.. Im just wondering how PA's (who didn't start out with a career in healthcare) got HCE as undergrads

I volunteered at the fire station, they paid for First Responder. Then I joined the Navy as a hospital corpsman, they paid for EMT and surgical technology school, plus OJT out the wazoo. Volunteered at another fire station while I was still in the Navy, they paid for paramedic school, plus more OJT. Left the Navy after 10 years, got hired as a career paramedic for another 12. Voile! HCE, no shadowing required to get into PA school, no undergrad needed either as I am in a Bachelor program. Will work on the Masters after I get a job and see if I can find a route to get that paid for too.

 

There are options out there if people are just willing to put in a little time. There is no rule that mandates that we rush through life. Being an older student has a lot of perks.

[mrsmojorisin]

I volunteered at the fire station, they paid for First Responder. Then I joined the Navy as a hospital corpsman, they paid for EMT and surgical technology school, plus OJT out the wazoo. Volunteered at another fire station while I was still in the Navy, they paid for paramedic school, plus more OJT. Left the Navy after 10 years, got hired as a career paramedic for another 12. Voile! HCE, no shadowing required to get into PA school, no undergrad needed either as I am in a Bachelor program. Will work on the Masters after I get a job and see if I can find a route to get that paid for too.

 

There are options out there if people are just willing to put in a little time. There is no rule that mandates that we rush through life. Being an older student has a lot of perks.

 

Wow I wonder if the navy will let a weak girl join lol free school sounds like a dream.. And im definitely not one to take shortcuts, I want to provide my patients with the best quality care possible. Luckily I just know what I wanna do while im still young.

 

Does getting a master's as a PA open up more doors for advancement?

[EMEDPA]

SHADOWING/VOLUNTEERING is not hce...working is...get a cert, work for a few years then apply....

(4 yrs as an er tech during college then paramedic school. 5 yrs as a medic before becoming a pa.)

[mrsmojorisin]

SHADOWING/VOLUNTEERING is not hce...working is...get a cert, work for a few years then apply....

(4 yrs as an er tech during college then paramedic school. 5 yrs as a medic before becoming a pa.)

 

Okay wrong word choice.. What is considered the most applicable HCE to being a PA? MA? (Generally speaking, obvi your HCE is the most applicable to being a Emergency Medicine PA)

[thinkertdm]

I suppose I would let someone shadow me- but I personally believe that shadowing is a huge waste of time that could be spent getting real paid HCE. Too many people rack up thousands of hours of "shadowing" and have meager HCE. I think for most people, they would have seen PA's at work by working next to them. I shadowed for 8 hours. I also had 10 years of varied HCE, as a psychometric technician, then as a research coordinator. They didn't count the brain surgeries I assisted with on monkeys, ha ha.

So anyways, the best ways to find what HCE will work is to call a few schools. They usually have a list of positions that qualify.

[briepm]

I would never have someone shadow me. I have a busy schedule and a private practice where people are not paying to have observations. I would be concerned about liability as well... would need to research how to protect myself and make sure the person could demonstrate HIPAA credentials.

 

Ha.. ironic choice of forum name maybe? I had well over the minimum for HCE, so I didn't shadow because I needed to (and as stated above, no it does not count anyway). I shadowed because I was excited about medicine and wanted to see what the hell a PA does. I think this is absolutely a terrible attitude. I actually got so much from my shadowing experiences, and was able to ask questions and see procedures long before I had even been accepted into school. I found excellent mentorship and could go into school being confident that I was making the right choice. Also, when we had our first Friday morning rotations (we start with 1/2 day rotations the second week of didactic year), I knew what to except and came prepared.

 

I participated in a formal shadowing program at St. Luke's Hospital in Bethlehem (the same hospital that has an ER and Trauma Surgery/ ICU fellowship) - I was able to see neurosurgery, trauma, ER, cardiology, radiology, primary care, ENT, pediatrics, etc a year and a half before I started PA school - and why? because a bunch of awesome PA's took the time to give me as a student the opportunity. It probably didn't do a thing for them, but it made a huge difference for me.

 

I will absolutely take students when I'm a PA - our Friday morning rotations (which are sort of like shadowing on steriods our first semester) has helped keep me going and excited. I understand that it's probably a pain, and that some people certainly have limitations and can't, but I'm so grateful that our PA community in this area is willing to do it.

[mackjacks]

I predict that when I am a PA I won't mind having a shadow now and then if I am not in too busy of a practice because it'll be nice to have a fresh-faced young kid who is excited about medicine and wants to know more about my profession. Also, PAs can claim CME credits for having a shadow, and for me to explain things to a shadow is more fun than JAAPA quizzes.

[emfdj]

I was an ophthalmic technician before PA school. Didn't get to see many procedures other than those relating to the eyes, but I got a lot of experience in understanding the value of a good history, dealing with all sorts of patients, understanding how a medical office works, insurance from the inside, assisting in cataract surgery, learning a lot about eye diseases, etc, etc. This experience helped to get into PA school and it helped on rotations. No shadowing and I got paid to do something I enjoyed. Now I'm the go-to person when it comes to eye problems in my Family Practice job.

[Just Steve]

Wow I wonder if the navy will let a weak girl join lol free school sounds like a dream.. And im definitely not one to take shortcuts, I want to provide my patients with the best quality care possible. Luckily I just know what I wanna do while im still young.

 

Does getting a master's as a PA open up more doors for advancement?

 

Why would you call yourself that? Confidence, even when you are feeling SUPER vulnerable, will open more doors for you than anything else in the world. Your first post was centered on you feeling like you would be in the way, then you call yourself weak. Perhaps being self deprecating has worked for you in the past, perhaps you're overly shy, I don't know but personally I struggle to find the energy to pull someone out of the shadows and essentially spoon feed them when there are dozens more motivated people knocking on the door with their own spoon in hand.

 

People mentor others because it is fun to see the positive energy of youthful exuberance. Positive energy is infectious, motivating, and exciting. Be that person that mentors want to see come in the next day.

[primadonna22274]

I don't. I actually make it difficult for them to do so-- they must do HIPAA training through the hospital, and pass the same background check the other entry-level hospital employees do. I make them send me a current CV and a letter of intent outlining why PA, what they hope to get out of the shadowing experience, and why they are asking me for this privilege.

It DOES slow me down.

So why waste time on someone I wouldn't recommend for PA school?

:)

[jdtpac]

I want to be brutally honest and tell you all that allowing individuals to shadow is an integral part to the key to the success of the future of our profession. Although HCE was the most always a necessary requirement in the past for admission to the PA program more and more programs are no longer requiring mandatory previous HCE. This is largely due to the fact that most all PA programs are now at the Masters level. Medical schools do not require previous HCE to apply but encourage shadowing programs. The PA programs in our area require their applicants to have had at least 40 hours of shadowing if they did not have any previous HCE. Our group will generally take in 3-4 Pre-PA students per year and because we are an ER groups the hospital on-boards these individuals per HIPPA regulations. There is a great demand for our profession and unless we all work together we will not be able to meet that demand. We have an obligation to not only function as preceptors for PA students but also to be available to Pre-PA students who would like to spend time with us to see if this is a profession they would like to the choose is a career.

[EMEDPA]

Many of us feel that despite the change to a masters level curriculum, prior hce is still of paramount importance. we do not need to give up on that core foundational element of the pa educational process just because of the switch by many programs to a graduate level teaching process. I do allow folks to shadow me but only write letters of rec. for those with > 1000 hrs of paid hce. I teach students from programs that both require and do not require high level hce. there is a difference in the quality of students on rotations and of the final product produced. medical schools do not require hce becuase they have a built in mechanism for gaining it during the residency. new pa grads for the most part to do not have this luxury and must know what they are doing to a great extent the day they graduate. a quality first job is certainly of great importance in the learning process but does not replace prior hce. numerous new grads on this forum and elsewhere are taking jobs as new grads with minimal oversight. that is the reality of pa practice in 2012. physicians are more "hands off" than ever before and expect a new grad pa to perform at a certain level. many without prior hce can not meet that expectation.

[jdtpac]

EMEDPA - don't get me wrong, I agree with you that having previous HCE is much preferable but I think your comments about the quality of the students is highly subjective because my experiences have been quite different. Having previous experience sometimes get you in trouble in that you think you know more than you do, I'm sure you have had students like that. Anyway, to get back to the issue of shadowing, the applicant pool is getting younger and we are seeing individual who have outstanding grades and intelligence to get into medical school but would rather apply for the PA program. Why should we tell them, no you should first go and get 2 or 3 years of training in another profession first and then applied to a program. We will lose these very bright young individuals to medical school.

 

I'll just leave you with these words from our founder Dr. Stead,” a high school graduate who is highly motivated and intelligence, that may have a liking for sick people and a tolerance for their often unavoidable irrational demands can be trained to do many of the things that a physician is trained to do". He used this as part of his argument to Duke University administration when developing the PA program back in the 1960.

[EMEDPA]

I'll just leave you with these words from our founder Dr. Stead,” a high school graduate who is highly motivated and intelligence, that may have a liking for sick people and a tolerance for their often unavoidable irrational demands can be trained to do many of the things that a physician is trained to do". He used this as part of his argument to Duke University administration when developing the PA program back in the 1960.

...but he was talking about navy corpsmen, not inexperienced applicants...

[CAdamsPAC]

I want to be brutally honest and tell you all that allowing individuals to shadow is an integral part to the key to the success of the future of our profession. Although HCE was the most always a necessary requirement in the past for admission to the PA program more and more programs are no longer requiring mandatory previous HCE. This is largely due to the fact that most all PA programs are now at the Masters level. Medical schools do not require previous HCE to apply but encourage shadowing programs. The PA programs in our area require their applicants to have had at least 40 hours of shadowing if they did not have any previous HCE. Our group will generally take in 3-4 Pre-PA students per year and because we are an ER groups the hospital on-boards these individuals per HIPPA regulations. There is a great demand for our profession and unless we all work together we will not be able to meet that demand. We have an obligation to not only function as preceptors for PA students but also to be available to Pre-PA students who would like to spend time with us to see if this is a profession they would like to the choose is a career.

 

Strongly disagree! There are thousands of people out there serving as military medical personel, EMS crews, CNAs, LPNs,RNs, ect, who aspire to become PAs who have worked so very hard and long providing patient care. This bogus kabuki theater call "shadowing" is pure bunk and I wouldn't consider being party to it or should I be on an ADCOM even give an applicant professing this "experience" serious consideration for admission. A major symptom of the wussification of this profession in my opinion ,is the acceptance of those who want to be seen as experienced because they saw a PA at work instead of working in health care and gaining real life experience!

[Guest JMPA]

Strongly disagree! There are thousands of people out there serving as military medical personel, EMS crews, CNAs, LPNs,RNs, ect, who aspire to become PAs who have worked so very hard and long providing patient care. This bogus kabuki theater call "shadowing" is pure bunk and I wouldn't consider being party to it or should I be on an ADCOM even give an applicant professing this "experience" serious consideration for admission. A major symptom of the wussification of this profession in my opinion ,is the acceptance of those who want to be seen as experienced because they saw a PA at work instead of working in health care and gaining real life experience!

I was required to have prior HCE and 40 hours of shadowing prior to application. I dont know if that has changed as a requirement. The shadowing is very necessary for an individual to fully understand the role of a PA. To interview without ever seeing how a PA works first hand is irrational. I prefer having the person whom is looking to shadow obtain volunteer status with the hospital first, which exposes them to HIPPA rules. Then I take them with me only when the patient is comfortable with it. Shadowing cannot and should not replace HCE, although it should also always be required pre-program application to ensure low dropout rates and quality candidate selection.

[Just Steve]

I was required to have prior HCE and 40 hours of shadowing prior to application. I dont know if that has changed as a requirement. The shadowing is very necessary for an individual to fully understand the role of a PA. To interview without ever seeing how a PA works first hand is irrational. I prefer having the person whom is looking to shadow obtain volunteer status with the hospital first, which exposes them to HIPPA rules. Then I take them with me only when the patient is comfortable with it. Shadowing cannot and should not replace HCE, although it should also always be required pre-program application to ensure low dropout rates and quality candidate selection.

 

So am I tracking you correctly when you say students need HCE and shadowing? So in a program such as MEDEX, where the average HCE sits around 10-12,000 hours, those students need to shadow as well to ensure they won't dropout?

 

MEDEX has one of the highest requirements for HCE and they have to turn away qualified, motivated, capable students every year, despite operating 5 campuses. There is not a dearth of experienced care providers looking to advance their careers. The problem is that there is a surplus of schools willing to take less qualified applicants.

[GatorRRT]

If someone shows the proper commitment to becoming a PA they'll get a job providing HCE in an environment where they can interact with PAs. I never shadowed, and was actually questioned about it during my interview to which I politely explained I didn't feel it was necessary considering my experience.

[MediMike]

So am I tracking you correctly when you say students need HCE and shadowing? So in a program such as MEDEX, where the average HCE sits around 10-12,000 hours, those students need to shadow as well to ensure they won't dropout?

 

MEDEX has one of the highest requirements for HCE and they have to turn away qualified, motivated, capable students every year, despite operating 5 campuses. There is not a dearth of experienced care providers looking to advance their careers. The problem is that there is a surplus of schools willing to take less qualified applicants.

 

We were advised very strongly to obtain shadowing experience in addition to our HCE, during the information sessions it was made somewhat clear that those who didn't obtain any wouldn't stand as much of a chance.

[EMEDPA]

. The problem is that there is a surplus of schools willing to take less qualified applicants.

The other problem is that there are too few schools willing to take folks with experience but without a bs degree at this point....

[KCMA79]

I often precepted PA students but never let someone shadow because of the admin hurdles and patient's concerns. It was easier to get patient consent and introduce someone as a student than someone who is just observing.

 

The current trend of not requiring significant HCE does not bode well for the profession. I feel this is being pushed by the plethora of new PA programs that are nothing more than cash cows for the institutions that run them and they can charge graduate school tuition. Being a PA is much more than academic knowledge. One of the reasons Dr Stead started the first PA program was not only to take advantage of ex corpsmen/medics knowledge but their maturity,judement and life experience. I want PAs who know what they know, and more importantly, know what they don't know. That judgement and maturity doesn't come out of a book or shadowing for 40 hrs or less.

[EMEDPA]

The current trend of not requiring significant HCE does not bode well for the profession. I feel this is being pushed by the plethora of new PA programs that are nothing more than cash cows for the institutions that run them and they can charge graduate school tuition. Being a PA is much more than academic knowledge. One of the reasons Dr Stead started the first PA program was not only to take advantage of ex corpsmen/medics knowledge but their maturity,judement and life experience. I want PAs who know what they know, and more importantly, know what they don't know. That judgement and maturity doesn't come out of a book or shadowing for 40 hrs or less.

This is one of the best posts ever on the forum!