Moderator EMEDPA Posted November 19, 2007 Author Moderator Share Posted November 19, 2007 "70 hours per week with call every 4th night... for $85k + $1,500 CME + 10 days Paid vacation in a congested town and Pro-NP/anti-PA state...." sounds like my last job....seriously....and you forgot no overtime pay for hrs over 40..... and straight pay to come in while on call.....and no production bonus.....and it was 1200 cme.....in a VERY pro np state just south of where I work now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swaymi Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Anything less than 65k starting (with full benefits) is a joke. Who is the one person starting at 40K? Have they ever had any kind of job before? Do they have student loans? Mortgage, car payments? I doubt it, they have no work experience in anything is my guess...this it their first job in life, it has to be...maybe it is not full time just a couple of days a week, yeah thats it... I see what you're saying... I personally wouldn't accept less than 70k, specially when i'll have all those loans to pay off... one my good friends, with a BS in Architecture, is working for 35k!!!!:eek: I was shocked, and she was quite satisfied, her excuse is that they don't make much money until they have their masters.... :eek: AND she does have a car payment and loans to pay off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest swaymi Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Pro-NP/anti-PA state....;) Where can i find a list of those states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted November 22, 2007 Author Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2007 Where can i find a list of those states? at this point any state without sch 2 dea rx rights is at least partially pa unfriendly...good place to start......list is at aapa.org under state regulations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lisnek Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 anyone taking less than the national mean for salary is doing our profession a disservice. all new grads should take this into consideration when taking their new job. negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. and come with you armed with support from AAPA, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoCares Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Salary should depend on specialty, experience, and hours per week. Period. I disagree with the 'stay close to the mean or die' mentality. Remember something, what happens when Universal Health Care hits our country? PAs are going to be highly sought, but everyones salaries are going to go down a bit, including Doctors. The upswing? Better care for the citizens of our country. Mark my words, stay reasonable and balanced or you're going to feel it a lot harder when the time comes. I agree about the loans. But other than that, I see nurses working pretty damn hard, don't you? Not to mention the paramedics who don't get paid sh*t. Maybe the PAs and the Docs use a little extra glucose in their metabolism, but by and large, I think $70K is a generous amount of money for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones. I chose $40K, simply because I'd do it for free (I know, I know, come back from lala world), and because I wanted to provide balance. If I could recast my vote, I'd choose $60-70K, sorry for that. Remember tho, the question was, how low would you take, not what would you like. I would still take $40K if I was going into the Peace Corps or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I think $70K is a generous amount of money for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones. Of course you do... YOU are not a PA-C with 15 years in healthcare (say a 10 year CCRN, RT, or Surg Tech before PA school) ... enriching physicians... by billing $350k/year but only taking home $65k/per year... while being considered and treated as "ancillary" staff... and getting a $50 "Best Buy" gift certificate as a "bonus" at the end of a very productive year...:( YOU do not carry 3 million/6 million malpractice insurance... and YOU are NOT expected to practice "gold standard" medicine. YOU have NO idea what the standard is. YOU are NOT dodging a suit everytime your SP dumps the smelly, annoying but intelligent "frequent flyer" with DSB on you. YOU do not have to worry about being "thrown under the bus" if all does not go well. You have never sat and listened to them (physicians) complain about THEIR house payments, loan payments, 65 foot boat payments, luxury car payments, child's private school tuition payments and expect sympathy while they "short-change" you... and refuse to acknowledge that these things are important to you and YOUR family also. Of course YOU "think $70K is a generous amount of money for clinical practice PAs"...:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoCares Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Salary should depend on specialty, experience, and hours per week. Period. Your experience should constitute salary above the mean, whatever that would be. As well, it definitely sounds like you should have been searching for a different practice to work in quite a while ago! Leave your nightmare doctors for the newbie grunts and go find a better home with people who will treat you with the respect your experience deserves. It sounds like you're really unhappy where you are. Nothing's perfect, but sometimes things can be worse than they need to be. Sometimes change can be a good thing :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Actually... I'm very happy in my current practice... and was happy with the two prior ones. My contention is with the general statement, "I think $70K is a generous amount of money for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones." Even "newbie" PA-Cs should be treated with respect and renumerated properly. Why not...??? They renumerate "newbie" physicians accordingly. Even "newbie" PA-Cs are expected to practice "gold standard" medicine. Even "newbie" PA-Cs will be sued if they don't. Even "newbie" PA-Cs have mortgages, school loans, and children's tuition. Most "newbie" PAs bill 3x their salary and bennies each year straight out of school. Why do YOU think this to be generally true "for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones"... and what "experience" do YOU base this thought upon...??? What are your UPIN/NPI/DEA/NCCPA/NPDB numbers...??? What's your Malpractice insurance number...??? How many CME hours have you logged...??? Have you taken the PANCE or PANRE...??? :confused: :confused: :confused: Do tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 1, 2008 Author Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2008 when I started pa school they asked us "what should a new grad pa make working 40 hrs/week with no call?" we all agreed 40k was more than fair. they asked us again before graduation 3 yrs later. we all said 55k. today they say 75-85k at the same program(it's now an ms level program though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoCares Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Actually... I'm very happy in my current practice... and was happy with the two prior ones. My contention is with the general statement, "I think $70K is a generous amount of money for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones." Even "newbie" PA-Cs should be treated with respect and renumerated properly. Why not...??? They renumerate "newbie" physicians accordingly. Even "newbie" PA-Cs are expected to practice "gold standard" medicine. Even "newbie" PA-Cs will be sued if they don't. Even "newbie" PA-Cs have mortgages, school loans, and children's tuition. Most "newbie" PAs bill 3x their salary and bennies each year straight out of school. Why do YOU think this to be generally true "for clinical practice PAs, especially newer ones"... and what "experience" do YOU base this thought upon...??? What are your UPIN/NPI/DEA/NCCPA/NPDB numbers...??? What's your Malpractice insurance number...??? How many CME hours have you logged...??? Have you taken the PANCE or PANRE...??? :confused: :confused: :confused: Do tell... I'm glad to hear you're happy where you are, and where you were, because your post sure didn't sound very happy. Your treatment of me makes me wonder if you really feel that "newbies" should be treated with a great deal of respect. I really hope you do. Since you're asking me why I said what I did (and I'm thinking that you do truly want to know, beneath the offense), I'll tell you. It's based on observations of PA co-workers, the clinical PAs that serve my own health, research into the profession, and budget for my own life. I should add here, I wasn't stopping to think about taxes. Taxes can cut a $70K salary to $40K. But you do bring up a good point, which is that others have different situations than my own. What I don't understand are your references to "gold standard" medicine...should this only come at salaries of $80K and up? Are you not capable of performing as well otherwise? As for your last 4 questions, I already stated I was pre-PA, as can also be seen in my profile, so you're obviously inferring that my opinion means nothing. I can see where you're coming from. Still, as someone with intention, as well as a mind, I don't see how my words could do anything but lend towards discussion. Further, why would I NOT want to consider all aspects of a career that I'm hoping to devote the rest of my life to? Here are some 'numbers' for you. I had to leave home when I was 13, I didn't even get to goto high school. I had to survive on the streets. Have you ever done that? It is so not easy. When I learned I could go back to school, I had to live in my truck for 2 semesters, 1 with a puppy. The first semester, I stayed at a rest stop until I was ousted. I then stayed under a bridge where other homeless people lived in their vehicles. I finally ended up staying in the mountains for the rest of that semester, sleeping in a fetal position every night through the cold and rain. The second semester I was homeless, with a puppy, I was ousted from the mountain spot. The only other place was a beach that was a mile hike from the road, and then a 6-story stairway down. I had to write bad checks for canned food that would last us the semester. I had 8am classes, M thru F. So it was up at dawn, to the kennel, to the Y, to the parking lot, hike up to class. I got a 4.0 that semester. Just as I was about to crack, I was offered free rent by two elderly disabled women in exchange for care. From there I've gone on to University, where they have taken great care of me. Prior to going back to school, I had volunteered in a kitchen that makes hot meals for AIDS patients, Alzheimer's care, pediatric ICU, and AIDS hospice. After starting school up, I went into hospice, geriatrics, and I've been in EDs for the last 4 years. Mostly for free. So yea, forgive me if $70K seems like a lot of money to me, and if I don't know all the ABC/XYZs yet. I was trying to make you feel better, forgive me. I'm trying to figure it all out, okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Its all good... But believe me... there are MANY instances where $70k/year is being short-changed... even for a "newbie"... i.e... $70k/yr for FT/FP in the Bay Area is robbery... Physicians reward one another for their contributions to health of the practice by giving each other money. Bonuses are used as a 'pat on the back" to say... You did a good job. I've seen the quarterly $15-30k productivity/bonus checks to even non-partners with my own eyes. This same group of people in many cases/practices won't even consider paying a NPP this same "bonus" for the same productivity or even greater productivity... i.e. 1 MD bills 300k this year 1 MD bills 200k this year 1 PA bills 280k this year Guess what two (2) non-partner providers get their salary plus the productivity bonus... and which one gets the $50 Best Buy card... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoCares Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 No offense intended, but I have a hard time buying that story. It would be such a slap in the face, it would have to have been a joke. I have an even harder time believing that you were/are happy there! I hope that was a long, long time ago and that you gave those jerks the bird on your way out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 No offense intended, but I have a hard time buying that story. It would be such a slap in the face, it would have to have been a joke.... Of course YOU do...;) No frame of reference. As for the "slap in the face"... read SDN to get a idea of the variability of respect possible... also see here and here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoCares Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 The only reference I can go truthfully go on is from the close observations I've made while shadowing for 80 hours, as well as the other 1000 I've donated in the same ER. Did that PA get snubbed at times? I saw it once or twice. I also reminded him that the Doc could have been having a bad day. Definitely lala-land mentality on my part, but then again, I'm sure some Docs simply do it because they can. I wouldn't let that get to me, but then, I have really thick skin (even tho you made me cry lol). For the most part, was he treated like a respected colleague? Yes. And that's because he deserves that respect. Even tho he is a bee-otch sometimes, as are we all. But a couple of ignores is a far cry from a $50 gift coupon. Ah, I should tell the rest of the story. The PA and I split for that day, and I went in and dropped this little who-cares present thing in front of the Doctor, some little trinket box with a little scroll inside that said something like, SEEK PEACE...in fact, I remember that's exactly what it said. Then I darted out of that office faster than a jackrabbit. You know, I just ran into that Doctor the other day, in ICU where I am now. He looked me in the eyes, and he remembered me. I ran into him again in the hall, and he made way for me. That's all I can say about that, and it probably has nothing to do with anything, as is most of my blathering in this thread. I think my point is, people who work together, no matter what the profession, get on each others nerves. But to be callously unthoughtful to the point of being highly abusive, such as in the case you mentioned, shouldn't have to be tolerated. Hey, thank you for the education, it's good to read about experiences. I guess it's *grits teeth* SMILE, SMILE...If I were that doctor, and you were taking half my practice, I'd offer to pay your kids tuition. You run into all types no matter what or where, some good, some duds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 As an experienced PA who has watched new grad PA salaries grow from the 20s to the 70s of thousands, I can say that most organizations are concerned about the bottom line and how best to maintain it. I read of the parsimonious compensation offered/paid to PA while the practice thrives , I must ask why do these PAs tolerate being abused? In my mind what you are paid including benefits reflects what the oganization thinks of your efforts are worth. When you accept/tolerate your compensation you validate this position. Here in Connecticut the cost of living is pretty high and most young professionals are having a rough time early on. When you add a child or two car costs housing school debt it's foolish to work for serfs wages and status. Now for my view of the basic acceptable compensation for an old guy like me. 1) $110.K PA minimum Monday-Friday 40+ hour work week 2) 1 week paid CME with $2,500-3,500 CME fund 3) 4 weeks paid vacation paid Federal Holidays off & 2weeks minimum paid Sick Leave with accrual 4) Short & Long term Disability paid 5) Health & Dental with Life Insurance paid. 6) Retirement and 401 Type plan with match 7) Full profession fees paid incl malpractice with a tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 2, 2008 Author Moderator Share Posted February 2, 2008 "Now for my view of the basic acceptable compensation for an old guy like me. 1) $110.K PA minimum Monday-Friday 40+ hour work week 2) 1 week paid CME with $2,500-3,500 CME fund 3) 4 weeks paid vacation paid Federal Holidays off & 2weeks minimum paid Sick Leave with accrual 4) Short & Long term Disability paid 5) Health & Dental with Life Insurance paid. 6) Retirement and 401 Type plan with match 7) Full profession fees paid incl malpractice with a tail." I think you are missing the spirit of the thread....it is not about"what do you expect to make" but about " for the best job you could possibly imagine with every benefit you want paid, perfect hrs in the perfect place doing exactly what you want" what would you take. it's a very different # than "what are you worth". I think I'm worth 125k/yr for a 40 hr week. for the best job I can possibly imagine I would probably work for 90k if every benefit, professional fee, license, journal or cme I wanted was paid, on site child care free, I wrote my own schedule and I was able to walk to work, take a paid sabbatical every few yrs, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 "Now for my view of the basic acceptable compensation for an old guy like me. 1) $110.K PA minimum Monday-Friday 40+ hour work week 2) 1 week paid CME with $2,500-3,500 CME fund 3) 4 weeks paid vacation paid Federal Holidays off & 2weeks minimum paid Sick Leave with accrual 4) Short & Long term Disability paid 5) Health & Dental with Life Insurance paid. 6) Retirement and 401 Type plan with match 7) Full profession fees paid incl malpractice with a tail." I think you are missing the spirit of the thread....it is not about"what do you expect to make" but about " for the best job you could possibly imagine with every benefit you want paid, perfect hrs in the perfect place doing exactly what you want" what would you take. it's a very different # than "what are you worth". I think I'm worth 125k/yr for a 40 hr week. for the best job I can possibly imagine I would probably work for 90k if every benefit, professional fee, license, journal or cme I wanted was paid, on site child care free, I wrote my own schedule and I was able to walk to work, take a paid sabbatical every few yrs, etc I think Steven Spielburg might be looking for a personal PA...:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 3, 2008 Author Moderator Share Posted February 3, 2008 I think Steven Spielburg might be looking for a personal PA...:rolleyes: he probably wants the guy working this job..... http://www.rayjobs.com/index.cfm?NavID=103 enter physician assistant in the top field healthcare in the second field..... several to choose from for those with a sense of adventure.... in all seriousness my last job offered most of this: "every benefit, professional fee, license, journal or cme I wanted was paid, on site child care free, I wrote my own schedule and I was able to walk to work, take a paid sabbatical every few yrs, etc" everything except the child care...they even paid for my pre-med prereq courses when I was hot and bothered about going back to medschool...and they paid/pay really well....unfortunately the docs there for the most part hate pa's and let us do squat. it's a great benefits package because it is a union gig-we work for the hospital not the physician group...but the work conditions became intolerable for full time practice. I still do 2 eight hr shifts/mo there because the money is unreal and I get retirement as a per diem employee but this yr I'm seriously considering letting the job go by the wayside and concentrating on working where I am more valued but paid/benfited less..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 "Now for my view of the basic acceptable compensation for an old guy like me. 1) $110.K PA minimum Monday-Friday 40+ hour work week 2) 1 week paid CME with $2,500-3,500 CME fund 3) 4 weeks paid vacation paid Federal Holidays off & 2weeks minimum paid Sick Leave with accrual 4) Short & Long term Disability paid 5) Health & Dental with Life Insurance paid. 6) Retirement and 401 Type plan with match 7) Full profession fees paid incl malpractice with a tail." I think you are missing the spirit of the thread....it is not about"what do you expect to make" but about " for the best job you could possibly imagine with every benefit you want paid, perfect hrs in the perfect place doing exactly what you want" what would you take. it's a very different # than "what are you worth". I think I'm worth 125k/yr for a 40 hr week. for the best job I can possibly imagine I would probably work for 90k if every benefit, professional fee, license, journal or cme I wanted was paid, on site child care free, I wrote my own schedule and I was able to walk to work, take a paid sabbatical every few yrs, etc I've listed just that, I am not a dreamer. Those are the minimum requirements to make it the best job while doing what I do best , taking care of patients.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 3, 2008 Author Moderator Share Posted February 3, 2008 I've listed just that, I am not a dreamer. Those are the minimum requirements to make it the best job while doing what I do best , taking care of patients.:) so you wouldn't take 105k and an incredible benefits package and retirement to be the personal team clinician to the swedish bikini team and travel all over the world with them for photo shoots and on your off days being able to run a native health clinic where ever you find yourself in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 so you wouldn't take 105k and an incredible benefits package and retirement to be the personal team clinician to the swedish bikini team and travel all over the world with them for photo shoots? I'm no good at PR or using my face time to make others look good. Besides I'd miss my wife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 4, 2008 Author Moderator Share Posted February 4, 2008 I'm no good at PR or using my face time to make others look good. Besides I'd miss my wife! so you are saying you can't create any job with a combination of incentives for which you would ever work for less than 110K? working as a civilian on a military base in europe(country of choice) taking care of soldiers and their families with your wife present on assignment with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 so you are saying you can't create any job with a combination of incentives for which you would ever work for less than 110K?working as a civilian on a military base in europe(country of choice) taking care of soldiers and their families with your wife present on assignment with you? Yup!!!!:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Man, I must have my priorities wrong. I mean, if I had a PA job . . . urgent care, 4 hours a day, in a quint village (Varenna) on Lake Como in Italy, housing paid (water view 500 year-old villa), food paid, expresso paid, wine paid, free health insurance, mo-ped, kayak, free RT trip to the states twice a year to see family thrown in . . . hey, I would work for almost nothing. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.