NP addressing herself as doctor in clinic

[dream2pa]

So this post is just mainly about my frustration.

 

I work in a clinic with majority of nurse practitioners. This nurse practitioner that works with me has a doctorate of nurse practitioner. She address herself as doctor so and so and then entire clinic from pharmacy, MAs , RNs, patients address herself as doctor.

 

They automatically assume my position is lower than her just because she’s “doctor “ and I’m not. I catch so many mistakes that she makes on a daily basis. Forget about evidence base medicine but she does not even practice good medicine. The quality of care she provides is way lower than what I provide just based on my training. 

 

I know I have an option to pursue higher education and get a doctorate  and maybe address myself as doctor one day. But I still don’t think it’s appropriate for myself or anybody to use this title in a clinical setting. Because at the end of the day we are not medical doctors.

I’m pretty sure the admin and the management are aware of it but they just don’t care. It’s a big community clinic we have 12 medical doctors, nine nurse practitioners, three PAs. We all sit in different sections and this one sits next to me in my section. It really irks me when every time she address herself as Dr. so-and-so. 
 

If she had real PhD maybe she would garner more respect from me.  But taking fluff classes from a night technical school does not equate to a real rigorous PHD.

 

 

Rent over

[iconic]

The NP train has long passed the station and we have refused to get on board 

[ventana]

be th thorn, keep asking her why she choose to do a certain thing

See her patients and change the standard of care

be nice but be professional but make your point

research rather you medical board or nursing board has an opinion on this 

 

[Rose66]

I agree she is not a DR a " Physician to be more exact", but the fact that she has a PHD in NP Studies allows her to call herself a Dr. legally. That said, in Medicine we know the difference bc we are PA's and we know what the NP studies entails. However Patients, MA's, administrators...etc. don't necessarily know or are aware of the difference and they  perceived  DR NP is more than PA. 

In reality Nurses should continued being nurses, I am not agree with this NP, MPA or DNP. They originally study to be Nurses to follow Dr. orders. It is all about about business...

[DiggySRNA]

7 hours ago, dream2pa said:

I’m pretty sure the admin and the management are aware of it but they just don’t care. 

If she had real PhD maybe she would garner more respect from me.  

I say this with the utmost respect...but why do you care? They clearly don't.

Her addressing herself as Dr (we all know nurses are title wh*res) has zero affect on you, your work ethic, or your salary, and frankly, she probably doesn't care if you respect her or not.

You're letting this DrNP live in your mind rent free.

[1madmamma]

In my opinion it is misleading in a medical setting for anyone to call themselves “Dr.” other than an MD or DO! Patients may falsely be led to believe that someone calling themselves Dr has completed medical school training. It should be considered fraud to mislead a patient that one is a physician when clearly they are not. Where does it end? A veterinarian, DPT, or college professor all can be called Dr- doesn’t mean they can come into a hospital and say “I’m Dr. So and so to a patient or their family. Patients should not have to decipher various degrees when they are seeking care! 

[ventana]

Not so quick on assuming it is legal to introduce herself as doctor.  Think some states have regs on this.  
 

also PLEASE do not say she has a PhD unless that is her degree.   PhD is a very hard credential to earn and it is NOT what DNP earn.   They earn a doctorate of np.   This is a fluff degree and anyone that has earned a PhD will tell you PhD is not fluff.  It is hard.  
 

I for one would NEVER call her doctor and I would explain clearly to her why   As well I would educate patients that she is NOT a MD/DO    

 

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

2 hours ago, ventana said:

Not so quick on assuming it is legal to introduce herself as doctor.  Think some states have regs on this.  
 

also PLEASE do not say she has a PhD unless that is her degree.   PhD is a very hard credential to earn and it is NOT what DNP earn.   They earn a doctorate of np.   This is a fluff degree and anyone that has earned a PhD will tell you PhD is not fluff.  It is hard.  
 

I for one would NEVER call her doctor and I would explain clearly to her why   As well I would educate patients that she is NOT a MD/DO    

 

Not for the one I last worked with.  When I saw the list of thesis topics for she and her classmates it was not impressive, nor was she.  YMMV.

[CAAdmission]

By and large, people like this suffer from a poor self-image and struggle for respect. She should be pitied. 

[MediMike]

What does it matter. The title doesn't affect patient care. If the individual is providing care below the standard then write them up/send to peer review or whatever the steps are in your organization.

If they try to order you around because they believe they are above you in some sort of hierarchy then crush them, otherwise don't worry about them.

And for those calling a DNP a fluff degree, while I don't disagree a number of DMSc aren't exactly strenuous from what I've seen, and at least every DNP student has to do (and understand) some sort of research which is way more than our field currently requires.

[Medeb]

So my question is this, is it appropriate for a chiropractor or acupuncturist (DOM) to be called Doctor? Have they not earned that degree? If one has earned a doctorate then technically one can be addressed as ‘doctor’ however, I believe it’s important to include the specific credentials at the end of the name. 

[EMEDPA]

33 minutes ago, Medeb said:

So my question is this, is it appropriate for a chiropractor or acupuncturist (DOM) to be called Doctor? Have they not earned that degree? If one has earned a doctorate then technically one can be addressed as ‘doctor’ however, I believe it’s important to include the specific credentials at the end of the name. 

The issue is the setting. If at a dentist's office, you know Dr Smith is your dentist. If at a chiropractor's office you know Dr Jones in a chiropractor, etc. In the hospital setting, unfortunately, Dr Green is always thought to be an MD/DO. Yes, lots of other folks there have doctorates as well, like the pharmacist, etc, but tradition is to equate Dr with physician in a hospital. I would be ok with anyone with a doctorate calling themselves Dr X is they explain their degree, like Hi, I am Dr Emedpa, one of the PAs here in the emergency dept. I could do this, but don't want to confuse people. Everyone I work with knows I completed a doctorate in global health a few years ago and I have PA, DHSc on all my lab coats, IDs, RXs, etc as it is an earned title, but I don't introduce myself that way in a clinical setting. 

[ventana]

I still say NP is in it's heyday right now

10 years from now I think their lack of training is going to bite them in the buttocks... hard.  With lots of law suits and problems.  Don't think for a minute that if AMA actually gets good evidence (and I bet they are looking) that NP provide inferior care they are not going to rightfully be pounding down the statehouse steps to pass new legislation stripping them of indepence or limiting their ability to practice....

[Medeb]

By no means am I advocating for the NPs as we get a ton of patients at our clinic that were either misdiagnosed or inappropriately managed by NPs but I can’t help but wonder…if NPs (WITHOUT doctorate training) are achieving FPA status in over 26 states now, why is this being allowed?? Who are the Medical Governing bodies in each state that continue to allow this and more importantly, WHY? I’ve gone to medical school and most of my colleagues, including my spouse who is an MD, are disgusted with the idea of an NP practicing independently. They all ask themselves why the hell they busted their ass and savings to achieve a medical degree only to have a NP take their place??? Going back to this ‘doctor’ nomenclature issue…exercise the right to use doctor before your name if you’ve achieved it but calling yourself a physician is wrong. Having earned my doctorate I make sure my patients know that I am a physician associate with a doctorate but not a physician. 

 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

For me, this is all about logical consistency.

First, doctor is an educational title, not a professional certification or license. I’m on board with getting knickers in a twist for anyone who says I’m doctor so and so without also stating their credentials, we don’t care with anyone, or just say no one, including physicians, can say it an we all say our professional title only.

second, as to the problem of setting: do we make every FM doc say they aren’t an internist in clinic? Sure every patient being treated in the ED believes that their physician has specialist training in EM, according to the “confused patient” logic, but we don’t make every FM physician explain they aren’t EM specialists. Do we make sure that FM physicians doing c-sections and delivering babies say they are OB specialists?

Also, it’s not just the setting assume people are a physician. Remember the “Dr. Biden” horse crap that went down? We need to get over this crap as a society. Partly because many people have worked just as hard for their non-MD doctorate, and partly this pedestal that we put physicians on is partly why we have this intolerance of errors leading to a sue happy country.

Third, and probably the one PAs and NPs are least consistent with “patient confusion” logic: Most PAs don’t have the training I do in EM. Should I not be okay with lesser trained PAs calling themselves an EM PA? How come the person who has “knowledge” of all the EM procedures gets an EM-CAQ the same as me, who has actually done even all ACGME required EM residency procedures? For the record, I don’t care about either. You meet the requirements, use the credentials all you want.
 

From my point of view, she hasn’t done anything to you personally, you just got sour grapes because she is getting recognized and you aren’t. Don’t bring others down a peg to lift yourself up. Let it go.
 

Now, if people suck, then bring it up the chain. If the chain isn’t doing anything, then move up the chain and do it yourself. Just be careful. Sometimes when you put people under a microscope, it’ll swing your way and you might not like the results. 

though we had an NP who every patient called Dr. so and so, who did not have a doctorate. They would ask me if I talked with “Dr.” So and so about their care. I shut down that BS fast. 

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

The one that I referenced left shortly after getting her doctorate because our employer wouldn’t allow her to use the title “doctor”.  She was there a year or so before leaving while working on it and what I found interesting was that her paper was in gynecology…a specialty area which we didn’t see in our clinic, and she wasn’t moonlighting.  Not sure how she obtained any clinical data.  As said previously, The only title I care about is the one I currently carry, “retired“.

Edited April 23, 2022 by GetMeOuttaThisMess

[ventana]

At old job 

admin hired newer DNP as DON (not as a provider). Left after about three weeks cause people didn’t want to call her doctor and her office was smaller then medical director.  
if admin had asked I would have told them she was toxic, but they thought they knew better.   
 

heck only time I call a physician doctor is in front of a patient.  Otherwise it is first names.  

[rev ronin]

2 hours ago, GetMeOuttaThisMess said:

 Not sure how she obtained any clinical data.

Secondary or "reanalysis" of existing data is a popular way to get through a doctoral capstone rapidly.  It might well have been a pet project proposed by a professor on her faculty, which is a pretty fast way to get things done and approved, overall.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

My father, MD, said many times I wrote more papers in a semester of nursing school than he did all of medical school (late 70s). He never wrote a single original research paper, yet was the most academically decorated person in medical school and residency. Valedictorian and best teaching by a resident 2 years in a row. This phenomenon of requiring research in clinical doctorates (and now even before applying) is relatively new. 

[dream2pa]

6 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

For me, this is all about logical consistency.

First, doctor is an educational title, not a professional certification or license. I’m on board with getting knickers in a twist for anyone who says I’m doctor so and so without also stating their credentials, we don’t care with anyone, or just say no one, including physicians, can say it an we all say our professional title only.

second, as to the problem of setting: do we make every FM doc say they aren’t an internist in clinic? Sure every patient being treated in the ED believes that their physician has specialist training in EM, according to the “confused patient” logic, but we don’t make every FM physician explain they aren’t EM specialists. Do we make sure that FM physicians doing c-sections and delivering babies say they are OB specialists?

Also, it’s not just the setting assume people are a physician. Remember the “Dr. Biden” horse crap that went down? We need to get over this crap as a society. Partly because many people have worked just as hard for their non-MD doctorate, and partly this pedestal that we put physicians on is partly why we have this intolerance of errors leading to a sue happy country.

Third, and probably the one PAs and NPs are least consistent with “patient confusion” logic: Most PAs don’t have the training I do in EM. Should I not be okay with lesser trained PAs calling themselves an EM PA? How come the person who has “knowledge” of all the EM procedures gets an EM-CAQ the same as me, who has actually done even all ACGME required EM residency procedures? For the record, I don’t care about either. You meet the requirements, use the credentials all you want.
 

From my point of view, she hasn’t done anything to you personally, you just got sour grapes because she is getting recognized and you aren’t. Don’t bring others down a peg to lift yourself up. Let it go.
 

Now, if people suck, then bring it up the chain. If the chain isn’t doing anything, then move up the chain and do it yourself. Just be careful. Sometimes when you put people under a microscope, it’ll swing your way and you might not like the results. 

though we had an NP who every patient called Dr. so and so, who did not have a doctorate. They would ask me if I talked with “Dr.” So and so about their care. I shut down that BS fast. 

As I had mentioned in the beginning that I was merely expressing my frustration . Since , I work with her 8 hours 5 days a week and see ancillary staff treating her superior to me because of her Dr. title. It does bother me at times . 
 

This forum should be a safe place to express opinions without fear of judgement or retaliation . You have an option to ignore it. 

[MedicinePower]

Which state? Several states have made it a crime for anyone other than an MD/DO to use the dr title in the clinical setting.

[MedicinePower]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:27 PM, Rose66 said:

I agree she is not a DR a " Physician to be more exact", but the fact that she has a PHD in NP Studies allows her to call herself a Dr. legally. That said, in Medicine we know the difference bc we are PA's and we know what the NP studies entails. However Patients, MA's, administrators...etc. don't necessarily know or are aware of the difference and they  perceived  DR NP is more than PA. 

In reality Nurses should continued being nurses, I am not agree with this NP, MPA or DNP. They originally study to be Nurses to follow Dr. orders. It is all about about business...

Incorrect. She has a doctorate in nursing but this absolutely not the same thing as a PhD in nursing which is a completely different course of study which also required a lengthy dissertation and original research.

Simply having a doctorate does not allow anyone to be called "doctor" in the clinical setting. Physical therapists has the Doctorate of Physical Therapy degree, audiologists have the Doctorate of Audiology, pharmacists have the Doctorate in Pharmacy degree, etc but they are legally barred from using the "doctor" title in the clinical setting (academic/university settings are a completely different story).

[MediMike]

1 hour ago, dream2pa said:

As I had mentioned in the beginning that I was merely expressing my frustration . Since , I work with her 8 hours 5 days a week and see ancillary staff treating her superior to me because of her Dr. title. It does bother me at times . 
 

This forum should be a safe place to express opinions without fear of judgement or retaliation . You have an option to ignore it. 

Just as you have an option to ignore his or anyone else's response. If you make a post and don't want replies maybe the mods can close it at your request?

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

10 hours ago, dream2pa said:

As I had mentioned in the beginning that I was merely expressing my frustration . Since , I work with her 8 hours 5 days a week and see ancillary staff treating her superior to me because of her Dr. title. It does bother me at times . 
 

This forum should be a safe place to express opinions without fear of judgement or retaliation . You have an option to ignore it. 

You expressed your opinion on an Internet forum. Expect opinions in return.

but I get it dude. It would irritate me too! Making her stop saying doctor isn’t going to change anything. Even if you were successful in getting her not to use that, the rest of the staff would just see you as a jerk. Just gotta rise above it.

[ventana]

On 4/24/2022 at 12:52 AM, MedicinePower said:

Incorrect. She has a doctorate in nursing but this absolutely not the same thing as a PhD in nursing which is a completely different course of study which also required a lengthy dissertation and original research.

Simply having a doctorate does not allow anyone to be called "doctor" in the clinical setting. Physical therapists has the Doctorate of Physical Therapy degree, audiologists have the Doctorate of Audiology, pharmacists have the Doctorate in Pharmacy degree, etc but they are legally barred from using the "doctor" title in the clinical setting (academic/university settings are a completely different story).

Totally false in my state. Laughed hard when a new grad PT asked me to call her doctor.  Um no.