Religious Exemption Question

[Gordlope]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting to this forum so forgive me if I am doing something wrong.

I recently applied to and was accepted at South College in Knoxville, and submitted my religious exemption for the covid as well as a few other vaccines. I don't expect to be rejected, and I was warned that this situation could cause complications for clinical rotations. My question is, does anybody have any experience with this? Were you able to go through the pa program entirely?

Thank you in advance.

Edited April 8, 2022 by AValentinov

[UGoLong]

I suspect you will be difficult to place in clinicals, if you get that far. 

[Rionat]

Yeah it will be really hard to get you into clinical rotations. A lot of these sites require vaccination no exceptions. No clinical means no graduation.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I do not accept students to precept without COVID vaccinations regardless of any exemption. Maybe you can skirt around the mandates with religious exemption and a facility may take you, though unlikely, but you’re going to have a tough time finding legit preceptors that will.

Hope for the sake of the future you don’t make it very far.

[ANESMCR]

You’re going to have issues throughout. 100% won’t be able place you in rotations. Especially peds. Yikes. Highly recommend you reconsider your career path. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by ANESMCR

[EMEDPA]

I precept at 4 facilities. They all require covid vaccinations, neg TB tests, and Hep B immunizations. Hard to work in health care if you don't believe in basic science. 

[mgriffiths]

My facility allows certain exemptions for COVID vaccination for employees, but these exemptions do not extend to anyone beyond employees.  This includes students, vendors, etc.

Therefore, as a student, no vaccine...no rotation regardless of the reason for not having received your vaccine(s).

Edit: meant to add...I would not be surprised if your acceptance is reviewed and revoked.

Edited April 7, 2022 by mgriffiths

[CAAdmission]

If your program is interested in helping you, they will be able to find a few preceptors here and there to place you with. There will be some specialties where it will be a pretty hard stop, though. You will have to reach out and do footwork to find preceptors that share your beliefs. 

[EMEDPA]

I don't mean to be insensitive, but the leaders of most religious organizations (the Pope, Dalai Lama, etc) have encouraged their followers to be vaccinated. 

Also all of these folks: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-religious-leaders-call-on-world-to-get-covid-vaccine/

[Gordlope]

1 minute ago, EMEDPA said:

I don't mean to be insensitive, but the leaders of most religious organizations (the Pope, Dalai Lama, etc) have encouraged their followers to be vaccinated. 

Also all of these folks: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-religious-leaders-call-on-world-to-get-covid-vaccine/

I do not follow leaders of organizations, I follow what was given to us for us to interpret and apply to our lives ie the Bible.

[EMEDPA]

Just now, AValentinov said:

I do not follow leaders of organizations, I follow what was given to us for us to interpret and apply to our lives ie the Bible.

I am a Christian as well. Would you please reference the Book and Verse that you believe instructs us to avoid vaccinations. 

[mgriffiths]

I'm going to add another thought, AValentinov, even if your program doesn't revoke your seat I would STRONGLY suggest that you have a very open conversation with the program.  You don't want to complete your didactics with every intention of heading into rotations only to get into massive problems.

Furthermore, I would also STRONGLY suggest you reconsider your career path if this is an exemption you plan to maintain.  I say this for many reasons, but will just share the following for now:

I mentioned my employer above, but I also know that both of the other hospital systems within my area require ALL new hires to be COVID vaccinated without exception.  They have allowed exemptions for current employees, but from what I have been told by colleagues that work there they are not hiring anyone that isn't COVID vaccinated regardless of reason.  In my mind I feel as though that could lead to lawsuits in the future for potential discrimination, but with my very limited legal understanding have no idea where that would go.

So, AVentinov, even if your current seat is maintained and you are are able to find rotations, what will your job prospects look like?  Do you really want to graduate with $100k+ of student loans to have trouble finding a job beyond the difficulties new graduates are already having?

[mgriffiths]

5 minutes ago, AValentinov said:

I do not follow leaders of organizations, I follow what was given to us for us to interpret and apply to our lives ie the Bible.

Similar to EMEDPA, I would like to see this.  I am a born again, evangelical Christian and received my COVID vaccine without hesitancy.  Please share.

[Gordlope]

21 minutes ago, mgriffiths said:

I'm going to add another thought, AValentinov, even if your program doesn't revoke your seat I would STRONGLY suggest that you have a very open conversation with the program.  You don't want to complete your didactics with every intention of heading into rotations only to get into massive problems.

Furthermore, I would also STRONGLY suggest you reconsider your career path if this is an exemption you plan to maintain.  I say this for many reasons, but will just share the following for now:

I mentioned my employer above, but I also know that both of the other hospital systems within my area require ALL new hires to be COVID vaccinated without exception.  They have allowed exemptions for current employees, but from what I have been told by colleagues that work there they are not hiring anyone that isn't COVID vaccinated regardless of reason.  In my mind I feel as though that could lead to lawsuits in the future for potential discrimination, but with my very limited legal understanding have no idea where that would go.

So, AVentinov, even if your current seat is maintained and you are are able to find rotations, what will your job prospects look like?  Do you really want to graduate with $100k+ of student loans to have trouble finding a job beyond the difficulties new graduates are already having?

Well I haven't had any issues working at any hospital (as an example I worked in the ER of a level 1 trauma center in a large city), My mother who is a PA also worked without the vaccines in a city ER, and so have many of my coworkers. I am not concerned with that because no matter how much hospitals stress that you "need" to be vaccinated, religious exemptions work just fine. What I wanted to find in this forum is people who have recently gone through a pa program in this same situation.

[ventana]

Have precepted many students over past 2 decades.   no Covid vaccine is a hard no.  Not variable.  

 

I don’t know the specifics of your situation but I have only heard of a single legit medical reason for not getting vaccinated (and pt wanted to be vaccinated ). As for religious exemption. Medicine is going to be tough for you as it is  based on science and wellbeing of society.  
 

good luck but I would refuse you as a student. 
 

 

[Gordlope]

24 minutes ago, mgriffiths said:

Similar to EMEDPA, I would like to see this.  I am a born again, evangelical Christian and received my COVID vaccine without hesitancy.  Please share.

I will copy and paste some pieces of my religious exemptions that have granted me several medical jobs:

"As per CDC report (www.cdc.gov) some mild, moderate and severe problems may occur after administering vaccines. I know that statistically the risk is minor and if I wasn’t guided by the Biblical teachings I probably would have taken the risk and may have allowed myself to be vaccinated. But the Bible states: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” -1 Corinthians 3:16-17"

"The Bible teaches us that every life is sacred. “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well” –Psalm 139:13-14. God-Creator alone may do harm or cure; it is not the responsibility of men to tinker with God's creation. The following text makes it clear: “And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” - John 9:2. Some vaccines were developed utilizing aborted baby tissue, others produced by the same companies. To partake in vaccinations is to support the individuals and businesses that no longer have respect for the sanctity of human life. See the following scriptures: “Thou shalt not murder (Exodus 20:13 & Deuteronomy 5:13).” Children are recognized from God at the point of conception (Genesis 4:1, 17, and Jeremiah 1:5), are knit together by God in the womb (Psalm 139:13-16; Psalm 22:10-11; & Galatians 1:15), are blessings from God (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 4:1; and Psalms 127:3 and 113:7-9), are valued and loved (Matthew 18:1-14 and 19:13-15), are created in His image (Genesis 1:27), and their killing is condemned (Psalm 106:35, 37-38). The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites because they “ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead” (Amos 1:13) and child killing was one of the major reasons that God’s anger burned against the Kingdom of Israel bringing about their destruction and exile (2 Kings 17:17-18)."

If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer them.

[mgriffiths]

26 minutes ago, AValentinov said:

I will copy and paste some pieces of my religious exemptions that have granted me several medical jobs:

"As per CDC report (www.cdc.gov) some mild, moderate and severe problems may occur after administering vaccines. I know that statistically the risk is minor and if I wasn’t guided by the Biblical teachings I probably would have taken the risk and may have allowed myself to be vaccinated. But the Bible states: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” -1 Corinthians 3:16-17"

"The Bible teaches us that every life is sacred. “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well” –Psalm 139:13-14. God-Creator alone may do harm or cure; it is not the responsibility of men to tinker with God's creation. The following text makes it clear: “And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” - John 9:2. Some vaccines were developed utilizing aborted baby tissue, others produced by the same companies. To partake in vaccinations is to support the individuals and businesses that no longer have respect for the sanctity of human life. See the following scriptures: “Thou shalt not murder (Exodus 20:13 & Deuteronomy 5:13).” Children are recognized from God at the point of conception (Genesis 4:1, 17, and Jeremiah 1:5), are knit together by God in the womb (Psalm 139:13-16; Psalm 22:10-11; & Galatians 1:15), are blessings from God (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 4:1; and Psalms 127:3 and 113:7-9), are valued and loved (Matthew 18:1-14 and 19:13-15), are created in His image (Genesis 1:27), and their killing is condemned (Psalm 106:35, 37-38). The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites because they “ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead” (Amos 1:13) and child killing was one of the major reasons that God’s anger burned against the Kingdom of Israel bringing about their destruction and exile (2 Kings 17:17-18)."

If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer them.

I figured this is where you would go.  I am not going to get into a theological debate over the internet, other than to say that I personally believe this is a very legalistic viewpoint and incorrect, ignoring the incredible life savings that have been vaccines.  Of course, "does the ends justify the means?" But again, I will not get into the debate any further.  Feel free to respond, I will not.

As for how this relates to medicine...have you had any of your vaccines?  Many of the fundamental childhood vaccines have either currently or in the past been developed with the fetal cell lines you refer to.  Assuming you have not received those vaccines, or currently do not support them, how will this impact your medical decision making to recommend, or not recommend, these vaccines to patients in the future?

Furthermore you state, "To partake in vaccinations is to support the individuals and businesses that no longer have respect for the sanctity of human life."  Does this mean you avoid all Johnson and Johnson products?  What about Pfizer?  Will you prescribe medications produced by Pfizer such as eliquis, azithryomycin, celebrex, ceftriaxone, etc. (here is their product list: https://www.pfizer.com/products/product-list) to your future patients?

(Hint: think about your answer to that last question carefully because if found during the discovery phase of a future lawsuit it may negate your malpractice insurance as it may show intent to perform malpractice, and likely will be used by prosecutors to prosecute you for murder.)

 

30 minutes ago, AValentinov said:

Well I haven't had any issues working at any hospital (as an example I worked in the ER of a level 1 trauma center in a large city), My mother who is a PA also worked without the vaccines in a city ER, and so have many of my coworkers. I am not concerned with that because no matter how much hospitals stress that you "need" to be vaccinated, religious exemptions work just fine. What I wanted to find in this forum is people who have recently gone through a pa program in this same situation.

You "haven't had issues working."  Was this a place that you were already employed before vaccine mandates were put into place?  Again, a big difference maintaining employment vs. gaining new employment.

I am not going to respond further.  You are unlikely to get any responses for what you were looking based on the responses you have received thus far, and because the VAST majority of all medical providers (and prospective medical providers) have received their COVID vaccine.

My final statement will be: as I have said and others have said, you need to reflect on your career choice.  For one, PA school is difficult and you are likely headed for an even more difficult road that is self-imposed.

[Apollo1]

26 minutes ago, AValentinov said:

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” -1 Corinthians 3:16-17"

The above quote is vague and left open to individual interpretation. "Defile" can be applied to any object that affects the original state of the body.

In addition, just because you used an argument for religious exemption doesn't necessarily mean it was a good argument or that it was reviewed by a legal professional. Healthcare legal departments are many times filled with nurses who are the initial recipients of paperwork and process most of the requests received.

Preceptors are not required to cater to individual demands. If this doesn't align with your worldview, you may be better served working in another profession.

[rev ronin]

So before we go into the theology, let's get into the science.  This isn't negotiable; if you don't believe this, you have no right to be a part of the medical community:

1) Covid-19 kills people. IFR may be only about 0.3%, but that belies that the fatality rate is highly dependent on who gets Covid-19: young people? No biggie, risk is trivially low.  Those 50+ with comorbidities (like some of us)? Non-trivial risk, still better than playing Russian Roulette. Based on the numbers I had access to at the time, I estimated a 3% chance of me dying from Covid when I got it 12-2020--which STILL may have been overstated. Those 70+? Massive risk, on the scale of playing Russian Roulette.

2) The vaccines are effective in reducing the frequency of bad Covid-19 outcomes, including death, intubation, and hospitalization. They are less effective than initially at preventing infection, likely causally related to genetic drift in the variants: every vaccine on the market still targets the original 'alpha' Covid-19 which has not been circulating for a year or more.

3) In adults, the risks of vaccine adverse effects are substantially lower than the risk of a bad outcome from a Covid-19 infection, such that the rational choice for an adult without medical contraindications and absent any ethical issues is to receive a Covid-19 mRNA vaccination series.

So far so good? If not, quit trying to get into PA school now. Seriously.  We can argue about policy, mandates, masking, interventions, etc. but these three bits aren't really negotiable; they only rely on observation and math.

[rev ronin]

So, after the science and before the theology, let's get into ethics.

What would the legitimate reasons be for deciding against a medical intervention?

- Cost (I'd rather take the risk than pay the fee) is taken out of the equation by the feds underwriting everything.

- Harm...
-- Harm to self
--- Physical
--- Moral or ethical harm
-- Harm to Others
--- Physical
--- Moral or ethical

- Ineffectiveness: I'm already naturally immune

So, that's a tree, but let's prune that tree a bit:

Physical harm. Or more specifically, that the vaccine has a greater risk of causing harm than doing good, is a reasonable argument in some cases, such as why I won't get a booster (2x Moderna + 12/20 disease means I'm going to suffer without any quantifiable upgrade to my immunity if I get one). It's also a legitimate reason for avoiding childhood Covid-19 vaccines: the risk of harm from infection is very low, and the risk of e.g. myocarditis is unacceptable relative to the risk.

But we're primarily talking about adults wanting to attend PA school getting or refusing the vaccine, so we're into 21+ YO territory.

Now, physical harm TO OTHERS from failure to receive the vaccine and thus transmit Covid-19 in a circumstance where a vaccinated person would not have is another real, but difficult to quantify, risk. We can deduce from the info that that's not a big ethical no-no for an elementary school teacher, but it probably is for a nursing home CNA.

Moral harm to self: You could argue that agreeing with a government mandate that transgresses bodily autonomy poses a moral harm. We'll talk about that next post.

Moral harm to others: Are you somehow causing others moral harm by you getting a Covid-19 vaccine? It takes some pretty convoluted logic to argue that vaccines dependent on fetally derived cell lines (Which were never used in the development or production of the mRNA vaccines, just testing) are somehow causing additional harm to fetuses aborted ~50 years ago. (well, the Chinese used fresh ones, I think. Probably Uyghur, but that's a different topic)

Ineffectiveness: This is a great reason to not get a pointless vaccination. I haven't gotten a Hep B vaccination in ~25 years, and haven't had titers drawn in 12: it's simply not indicated. With respect to Covid-19, this argument gets stronger with the ongoing genetic drift and apparent attenuating protection from the original/current vaccines, along with the increasing prevalence of naturally acquired immunity.  BUT I have yet to see anyone argue that it's an ethical issue, just a matter of worsening cost/benefit ratio.

Next, let's look at the theology

[rev ronin]

So, let's talk about the mainstream Christian responses to Covid-19 vaccination, and the theological rationale underpinning them

Most everyone: Get the vaccine, because you have a duty to protect others, and saving your own life is a good idea too so you can continue to help others, and any issues are secondary to those goals: any low-frequency risks to yourself are reasonable in the pursuit of being a good neighbor, and any harms from the remote use of tissues derived from fetuses aborted decades ago are outweighed by the good done. Oh, and Romans 13 suggests submitting to authorities in their sphere of influence and our society has a pretty well established set of laws expecting us to comply with vaccine mandates and quarantines.

There are variations on that one, and different theologians might emphasize one clause or the other, but pretty much everyone supporting vaccination comes to some variation of those.

There are three other camps of Christians objecting to vaccination that I'm going to name and deal with in turn: The cowards, the liars, and the selfish.

The cowards' reasoning goes like this: It might hurt me, therefore I won't get it, because I am not taking any action that might hurt me. They often have an irrational and unrealistic fear of vaccine outcomes and side effects, stoked by conservative echo chambers and reinforced by confirmation bias. Some of them believe ludicruous conspiracy theories--not just that the numbers don't really differentiate between who died WITH Covid or OF Covid (Case in point: George Floyd died with Covid, of positional asphyxia. Do we count him as a Covid death?) but rather that almost all the deaths have been from the vaccines, vaccines make the recipients infertile, there are 5G command and control chips inside the vaccines, etc.

BUT, even if any of these silly conspiracy theories were true, the consensus Christian response through the centuries has been to run toward the plagues, when all the pagans are running away from them. If you work in healthcare and don't understand how it was a religious and particularly Judeo-Christian calling up until ~150 years ago, your history is deficient. I highly recommend Rodney Stark's The Rise of Christianity for those who haven't read it as an introduction to the concept of Christian self-sacrificial ministry to the sick and dying.  That, too, has been lost on most of today's Christians.

Second, the liars.

1. Williams JTB, Rice J, Cox-Martin M, Bayliss EA, O’Leary ST. Religious Vaccine Exemptions in Kindergartners: 2011–2018. Pediatrics. 2019;144(6). doi:10.1542/peds.2019-2710

What this lovely paper showed is that when you take away a "personal belief" exemption for vaccination, as was done in Vermont (a thoroughly unchurched state with less religious adherents per capita than the vast majority of other states), the "religious" vaccination exemptions grow by a sizeable portion of the no-longer-allowed personal belief exemptions. That is, either all those people suddenly became religious (ha!) or they are liars.

Liars will use whatever justification suits them. For example, the 1 Cor 3 passage quoted by the OP reads, in full (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+cor+3&version=ESV).  Thus, in context, it's easy to see that the "you" is a collective you, which is borne out by the Greek text (https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/1co/3/16/s_1065016). The other passage used by some liars is a few chapters later in the same book, 1 Cor 6:19-20: "19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."  But again, looking at it in full context, it's talking about sexual immorality being an offense (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6&version=ESV).

Now, lying about what the Bible means has a long and ignoble tradition within Christianity, and it would be a "no true Scotsman" argument for me to say otherwise.  The art is called eisegesis, reading something into the text, and is opposed to exegesis, which is letting the text provide its own meaning through context. If this is you? Congratulations! You're in good company--alongside those who say that Psalm 110:4 means that Priests who anally rape altar boys don't get kicked out of the priesthood, just shuffled off elsewhere, and those who said that the curses on Ham's descendants in Genesis 9 morally justified slavery of Africans. (Full disclosure, again for those of you who don't have a good grasp on history: abolition of slavery throughout both the UK and US was largely driven by white Christians whose theology understood all people to be equal and slavery as an affront against Christian brotherhood. But I digress.)

Liars also like to justify their objections by pretending they have a massive objection to abortion. There is a reason that no pro-life organization associated with any major Christian group, broadly construed, opposes vaccines on abortion grounds: because the number of other things with a less remote connection to fetal cell line testing (this was brought up above) is massive and they don't seem to have any problem with most of them. The closest that anyone gets is a position statement that legitimate rights of individual conscience should be respected, such as that held by the Catholic Medical Association.

The selfish have done a thorough job of confusing Christianity with Libertarianism. They hallucinate a right to bodily autonomy (there isn't one in Christianity; quite the opposite) and baptize it and call it religious. Of the three, these guys get the least scorn from me, because they're articulating a reasonable political philosophy: government shouldn't be able to force people to get vaccinated. Reasonable political philosophy. Not religious, political. By claiming a right to refuse government control over one's own body, they ignore Jesus' own teaching (Matt 5:41), and substitute a political philosophy instead, and thus claim religious priority for something not Christian at all.

So, with that taxonomy of religious objections, let's examine the OP's next post.

[rev ronin]

3 hours ago, AValentinov said:

I will copy and paste some pieces of my religious exemptions that have granted me several medical jobs:

"As per CDC report (www.cdc.gov) some mild, moderate and severe problems may occur after administering vaccines. I know that statistically the risk is minor and if I wasn’t guided by the Biblical teachings I probably would have taken the risk and may have allowed myself to be vaccinated. But the Bible states: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” -1 Corinthians 3:16-17"

"The Bible teaches us that every life is sacred. “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well” –Psalm 139:13-14. God-Creator alone may do harm or cure; it is not the responsibility of men to tinker with God's creation. The following text makes it clear: “And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” - John 9:2. Some vaccines were developed utilizing aborted baby tissue, others produced by the same companies. To partake in vaccinations is to support the individuals and businesses that no longer have respect for the sanctity of human life. See the following scriptures: “Thou shalt not murder (Exodus 20:13 & Deuteronomy 5:13).” Children are recognized from God at the point of conception (Genesis 4:1, 17, and Jeremiah 1:5), are knit together by God in the womb (Psalm 139:13-16; Psalm 22:10-11; & Galatians 1:15), are blessings from God (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 4:1; and Psalms 127:3 and 113:7-9), are valued and loved (Matthew 18:1-14 and 19:13-15), are created in His image (Genesis 1:27), and their killing is condemned (Psalm 106:35, 37-38). The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites because they “ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead” (Amos 1:13) and child killing was one of the major reasons that God’s anger burned against the Kingdom of Israel bringing about their destruction and exile (2 Kings 17:17-18)."

If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer them.

So, congratulations, you have found medical employment that uncritically accepted your stated objections.

The first argument is a straightforward combination of the coward and liar. Liar because of the eisegesis into 1 Cor 3, coward because it uses a threat of personal harm as a rationale to refuse an action.

The second one might seem more daunting, until one realizes it's all a liar rationale. All of it is pretty standard pro-life reasoning, which is orthodox (not Orthodox, orthodox) and widely held by, oh, maybe 20%-ish of Americans... except that relies on one big lie, which I have bolded in my quote. Anyone who has a smattering of understanding of immortalized cell lines understands that the statement is false, and "aborted baby tissue" would be better replaced with "immortalized human cell lines originally derived from abortions generations ago that were not done for the purposes of medical research or vaccine development and are now grown only in laboratories"

The reason major pro-life organizations won't endorse the second rationale is that it doesn't make any sense ethically: the connection to abortion is too remote, and the benefits of saving and protecting life too great for that to be a thing.
- the original abortions were not done for research purposes
- No vaccines in use in the United States are developed using aborted baby parts (China? Again, Uyghurs are more than just walking organ banks for transplant tourism). The second rationale implies that ongoing abortions are needed to continue vaccine production, when such is not now nor has ever been the case. The closest you can get is the PER.C6 line, which was harvested in 1985, and is the backbone of the Johnson and Johnson/Janssen vaccine. (https://rtl.org/educational-materials/vaccines-abortion/) AstraZeneca/Oxford appears to use HEK-293 from ~1972.
- Vaccines save lives, even the Varicella vaccine cited in the above rtl.org link (https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/vaccine-infographic.html) and the argument against use does not take that into account. Jesus himself was known to flaunt religious laws when they got in the way of healing others (c.f. Mark 3:1-6, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+3&version=ESV others) and the association between vaccines and abortion is far more causally and temporally tenuous.
- Accepting a vaccine derived from an aborted fetal cell line is neither formal nor material cooperation with evil, because nothing about any one individual or group of individuals accepting or rejecting vaccines derived from aborted fetal cell lines has any influence on the prevalence of current or future abortions: The entire point of these cell lines being used 50+ years or more is that once they've got one that replicates well, the research establishment likes to use it everywhere for everything.

 

So, @AValentinov what does that mean? You're using Christian scriptures in an end-justifies-the-means manner, not supported by any significant religious tradition, body, or organization, rather than actually being instructed by them. You're advancing fear of personal health consequences as a rationale for not risking those consequences to possibly save lives and reduce suffering. You're using concern for the innocent lives of babies that were dead and parted out long before you were born as a pretext for not taking steps to protect the elderly, those with comorbidities, and immunocompromised whom you might encounter if you were allowed to become a healthcare professional.

If you think I'm wrong, by all means rebut me.

[ANESMCR]

To provide further context, I attended a faith based program/institution. I’m still involved with the admissions process. You would very likely have your acceptance revoked.

[CAAdmission]

I'm at essentially no risk of severe consequences from Covid. I was initially told that I should get vaccinated whether I wanted to or not "to protect others." There are people with medical conditions that face severe consequences from Covid, and I needed to get vaccinated for their sake. 

It's now widely acknowledged that while vaccination attenuates the risk of contracting severe disease, it neither prevents contraction nor transmission of the disease. By virtue of increasing the likelihood of making someone an asymptomatic carrier, it might even paradoxically increase the likelihood of transmission. 

As to demanding religious citations from this guy, you're not his dissertation committee and he doesn't owe you squat. You are really going to cite the pope? He tells people not to have abortions and use contraceptives, too - how well has that been working?

[Gordlope]

8 hours ago, mgriffiths said:

I figured this is where you would go.  I am not going to get into a theological debate over the internet, other than to say that I personally believe this is a very legalistic viewpoint and incorrect, ignoring the incredible life savings that have been vaccines.  Of course, "does the ends justify the means?" But again, I will not get into the debate any further.  Feel free to respond, I will not.

As for how this relates to medicine...have you had any of your vaccines?  Many of the fundamental childhood vaccines have either currently or in the past been developed with the fetal cell lines you refer to.  Assuming you have not received those vaccines, or currently do not support them, how will this impact your medical decision making to recommend, or not recommend, these vaccines to patients in the future?

Furthermore you state, "To partake in vaccinations is to support the individuals and businesses that no longer have respect for the sanctity of human life."  Does this mean you avoid all Johnson and Johnson products?  What about Pfizer?  Will you prescribe medications produced by Pfizer such as eliquis, azithryomycin, celebrex, ceftriaxone, etc. (here is their product list: https://www.pfizer.com/products/product-list) to your future patients?

(Hint: think about your answer to that last question carefully because if found during the discovery phase of a future lawsuit it may negate your malpractice insurance as it may show intent to perform malpractice, and likely will be used by prosecutors to prosecute you for murder.)

 

You "haven't had issues working."  Was this a place that you were already employed before vaccine mandates were put into place?  Again, a big difference maintaining employment vs. gaining new employment.

I am not going to respond further.  You are unlikely to get any responses for what you were looking based on the responses you have received thus far, and because the VAST majority of all medical providers (and prospective medical providers) have received their COVID vaccine.

My final statement will be: as I have said and others have said, you need to reflect on your career choice.  For one, PA school is difficult and you are likely headed for an even more difficult road that is self-imposed.

You don't need to respond, I will just answer the questions you have asked me.

I did get some of the vaccines from childhood but it is because I was not Christian at the time, if I could go back, I would not have gotten them. In terms if recommending or administering vaccines to future pts, I have no problem with that because it is under their request that I do this for them. It is not sinful to do that.

In terms of not supporting these businesses, when possible that is correct, I avoid using any and all medications unless critical. For example if I am having an infection which may be life threatening I will use antibiotics because I have to, but for non life threatening conditions I avoid these companies' medications.

And yes I applied to these places during covid vaccine era, and without most of the other "mandatory" vaccines with little to no issues.

As to your last paragraph, if it becomes apparent to me that God does not want me to pursue this path, then I will stop. But as it stands, it's clear that He has wanted me to go down this pre-medical path.