Anyone gotten mad at a patient on COVID vaccine discussion??

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

1 hour ago, Cideous said:

We all got a series of 3 Hep B shots...then a titer.  If you don't convert, you start over.  No one bitches.  I had to get an MMR booster recently....did not bitch.  I get a flu shot every year.  No bitching.  I get a td ever 5-10 years...no bitching.  I got a series of two Varicella vacs which hurt like hell.  (maybe a little bitching, but was glad to get them).

This crap is political.  100%. there is no other medical/scientific reason that holds water.  Everyone knows it but a certain sect of Americans just can't stand being told what to do even if it means saving the life of their kids, their parents or themselves.  Not to mention their neighbors.

Go watch the Ray Liotta move from 1994 called "No Escape".  It's a great example at what complete freedom without looking out for your neighbor gets you.  Plus, it's a great action movie 

Stop this MADNESS!  We cannot tolerate rationale thought processes here.  During my brief stint at the Dallas VA I tried to explain to the Employee Health staff that I had documentation of adequate antibody titers to my 80’s era Hep B and that no booster was indicated in spite of what their titer showed.  I didn’t argue with them and just bared  my shoulder and went through round two of the series.

[CAAdmission]

Here's Mike Rowe's take on vaccine hesitancy - he captures things pretty well. You don't have to like or agree with this, but if you don't try to understand you are doing a disservice to your patients. 

"The point I was trying to make, is that half the country has lost faith in our most important institutions," Rowe explained. "We have a massive credibility problem, exacerbated by powerful people who not only moved the goalposts time and time again, but championed the same restrictions they chose to ignore. In my view, this steady drip of hypocrisy helped foster a deep level of mistrust among millions of unvaccinated Americans. If you really need specific examples, just google 'COVID-political-hypocrites.' Those are the people to whom I refer, and they are legion."

...Fauci is not going to be part of the solution. His credibility is shot, and nothing he says will convince the skeptics to rethink their skepticism. (Earlier today, he slammed the Sturgis Bike Rally as a potential super-spreader event, while saying nothing about Obama’s birthday bash, and Lollapalooza. That’s the real problem. His slip is showing, and that’s made him unpersuasive to millions.

Donald Trump, as you may have noticed, is no longer the president. And those now skeptical of the vaccine, are not limited to his former supporters. Far from it. Vaccine hesitancy is alive in well in every major city, particularly among minority populations.

 

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

2 minutes ago, CAAdmission said:

Here's Mike Rowe's take on vaccine hesitancy - he captures things pretty well. You don't have to like or agree with this, but if you don't try to understand you are doing a disservice to your patients. 

"The point I was trying to make, is that half the country has lost faith in our most important institutions," Rowe explained. "We have a massive credibility problem, exacerbated by powerful people who not only moved the goalposts time and time again, but championed the same restrictions they chose to ignore. In my view, this steady drip of hypocrisy helped foster a deep level of mistrust among millions of unvaccinated Americans. If you really need specific examples, just google 'COVID-political-hypocrites.' Those are the people to whom I refer, and they are legion."

...Fauci is not going to be part of the solution. His credibility is shot, and nothing he says will convince the skeptics to rethink their skepticism. (Earlier today, he slammed the Sturgis Bike Rally as a potential super-spreader event, while saying nothing about Obama’s birthday bash, and Lollapalooza. That’s the real problem. His slip is showing, and that’s made him unpersuasive to millions.

Donald Trump, as you may have noticed, is no longer the president. And those now skeptical of the vaccine, are not limited to his former supporters. Far from it. Vaccine hesitancy is alive in well in every major city, particularly among minority populations.

 

Again, a rationale thought process whether one agrees or not.  Where is the hyperbole thread again?

[sas5814]

I don't always agree with Rowe but I find his stuff to be thoughtful. I read the whole piece and thought he made some points.

 

[thinkertdm]

3 hours ago, Cideous said:

We all got a series of 3 Hep B shots...then a titer.  If you don't convert, you start over.  No one bitches.  I had to get an MMR booster recently....did not bitch.  I get a flu shot every year.  No bitching.  I get a td ever 5-10 years...no bitching.  I got a series of two Varicella vacs which hurt like hell.  (maybe a little bitching, but was glad to get them).

This crap is political.  100%. there is no other medical/scientific reason that holds water.  Everyone knows it but a certain sect of Americans just can't stand being told what to do even if it means saving the life of their kids, their parents or themselves.  Not to mention their neighbors.

Go watch the Ray Liotta move from 1994 called "No Escape".  It's a great example at what complete freedom without looking out for your neighbor gets you.  Plus, it's a great action movie 

Holy crap, I thought I was the only one who saw that movie!  I'm probably the only one who saw it three, four times.

[Cideous]

8 hours ago, thinkertdm said:

Holy crap, I thought I was the only one who saw that movie!  I'm probably the only one who saw it three, four times.

Haha nope.  We love that movie.  The rabid tribe reminds me of what happens when it's survival of the fittest vs the other tribe who try to look out for each other.  The Trump crowd turn out to be canibals....the other tribe ends up surviving but just barely after being assaulted by the freedom loving canibals.  Awesome movie.

[CAAdmission]

6 minutes ago, Cideous said:

The Trump crowd

Making people into "others" like this - isn't that what the "Trump crowd" is always accused of doing? Just sayin'...

[CAAdmission]

47 minutes ago, mcclane said:

No, it is not the same, but it is advantageous for you to attempt to link them.

This is derailing this thread, but if you want to take it over to the politics thread I'd be fascinated to hear you expound further upon this. 

[ventana]

Just asked  another patient to leave the office

 

staff "forgot to verify vaccinated"  (patients wanting to be seen in person have to be vaccinated)

She is the first patient that I have had that essentially refused to wear a mask

claims 3000 patients killed by the vaccine

she said that I could not refuse to see her (I work in a small private clinic)

I told her that I respect her "uninformed" decision to not get vaccinated, and she has to respect my decision not to expose my unvaccinated children (to young to get vaccine) to increased risk of transmission due to her vaccine status.....

 

thing that annoyed me the most (not even mad just annoyed) is that she was so belligerent about not wearing her mask - signs all over, and she just ignored them.......    just no intellect 

 

ugh...... I guess my old saying of "there is no cure for stupid" is true, and maybe just maybe natural selection will kick in....

[MediMike]

@ventana man I am so sorry you had to deal with that. The level of denial I'm seeing is incredible. Folks about to get intubated insist that they are fine and not sick, that COVID is a made up disease, that we're just in it for the money.

Seeing couples, paralyzed/proned on the vent, likely not going to make it, talking to their grown children who says "Yeah well vaccines aren't really my thing".

Losing nurses left and right... incredibly frustrating. 

[ventana]

13 hours ago, MediMike said:

@ventana man I am so sorry you had to deal with that. The level of denial I'm seeing is incredible. Folks about to get intubated insist that they are fine and not sick, that COVID is a made up disease, that we're just in it for the money.

Seeing couples, paralyzed/proned on the vent, likely not going to make it, talking to their grown children who says "Yeah well vaccines aren't really my thing".

Losing nurses left and right... incredibly frustrating. 

I just don't understand how people can be so stupid and set in their ways.  I crazy patriotic, love this country, but if 40% of the country are this closed minded and ignorant I am not sure my loyalty is well placed.  I am also tired of people thinking the we as PAs "signed up for this" or that we can be their verbal punching bags to unload on.  I am done with it, just hung up signs today to say if you are unvaccinated to not enter the office at all.  I hate to say it but if they are so blind to reality to ignore the plan advice of getting a shot I have no desire to offer them any of my knowledge and guidance as they clearly are not receptive to knowledge.  They can provide their own care.  As well I hope the medical establishment does this across the board and the insurance companies stop paying for COVID care on patients that merely thought getting a vaccine was a bad idea.  Let them pay for their own care.

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

As a famous man…uh, alien, once said, “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”. Thank you Mr. Spock.

For all the crazies at these school board meetings re: masking versus non-masking, why don’t the districts divide the grades into masked students versus non-masked students, vary the lunch and PE periods with each group, and that way both groups are happy? Pay the non-mask teachers a higher rate due to risk exposure.

Edited August 25, 2021 by GetMeOuttaThisMess

[Cideous]

1 hour ago, ventana said:

I just don't understand how people can be so stupid and set in their ways.  I crazy patriotic, love this country, but if 40% of the country are this closed minded and ignorant I am not sure my loyalty is well placed.  I am also tired of people thinking the we as PAs "signed up for this" or that we can be their verbal punching bags to unload on.  I am done with it, just hung up signs today to say if you are unvaccinated to not enter the office at all.  I hate to say it but if they are so blind to reality to ignore the plan advice of getting a shot I have no desire to offer them any of my knowledge and guidance as they clearly are not receptive to knowledge.  They can provide their own care.  As well I hope the medical establishment does this across the board and the insurance companies stop paying for COVID care on patients that merely thought getting a vaccine was a bad idea.  Let them pay for their own care.

Delta airlines just announced they are charging a $200/MONTH premium to their employees who choose not to get vaccinated.  My wife's company just announced that everyone MUST be vaccinated by Oct 1st or they will be terminated.

 

It's time for mandates...period.  No one is going to come to your home, hold you down and give you a shot.  But if you want a job, to travel, go to the store?  Then your freedom to be stupid stops at those doors.

[CAdamsPAC]

1 minute ago, Cideous said:

Delta airlines just announced they are charging a $200/MONTH premium to their employees who choose not to get vaccinated.  My wife's company just announced that everyone MUST be vaccinated by Oct 1st or they will be terminated.

 

It's time for mandates...period.  No one is going to come to your home, hold you down and give you a shot.  But if you want a job, to travel, go to the store?  Then your freedom to be stupid stops at those doors.

I wear a red hat with the quote " Make Orwell fiction again".

[rev ronin]

For anyone who's interested, I am setting up a service to consult on whether religious exemption requests are valid.  After all "I might get shot and die" was never a reason for wartime conscientious objection; Covid-19 religious accommodation requests are in some ways similar.

[Reality Check 2]

No offense, Rev --- 

But if someone has tdap, pneumovax and shingrix on their record but NOW wants a religious exemption for COVID - ummmm, NO, just no.

One cannot pick and choose religious notions when convenient and use as an excuse.

This is not the MMR, not live, not made using a cell line and is Halal and Kosher. Muslim and Jewish authorities have accepted them and encouraged them amongst their congregates. 

Many locations, businesses and even universities near me have removed acceptance of "philosophical and religious" exemptions because they have become a trash can for avoidance. 

We will end up wasting resources and testing the deniers daily or weekly forever and ever when a vaccine would do the trick and prevent death, prevent ICU stays, prevent intubation in most cases and help protect little kids.

Even the Pope said that religion and science are not mutually exclusive - get the vaccine.

And Arnold Schwarzenegger - as a GOP member - has said there is a cost to citizenship - and he is spot on, in my opinion. 

So, no excuses. And I seriously cannot think of ONE religious argument that a vaccine should be exempted for. NOT ONE. 

[rev ronin]

1 hour ago, Reality Check 2 said:

No offense, Rev ---

None taken.  What, you think I'm going to sell religious exemptions or something? More like I'll teach people to systematically evaluate them and toss the ones that don't really meet criteria, while respecting the rights of those that really do. Guess which I expect to find more commonly?

For what it's worth, it IS actually possible to have a legitimate religious belief exemption, but I'm sure not going to be posting a roadmap on how to do that publicly.  Those who have a genuine objection don't need coaching.  The acme is not "is this belief correct?" but "is it a sincere religious belief?"

 

ETA: FWIW, It's Zostavax, not Shingrix, which used cell lines derived from aborted fetal tissue. And the mRNA vaccines don't require cells at all.

[kettle]

My frustration is how I see those in heathcare treat those currently sick with covid. I see providers and nurses in the ED walk in on a covid positive patient and ask, "are you vaccinated? No? Why not?" And them treat them poorly based on vaccine status. I am for the vaccine, I am not for belittling sick people on their vaccine status. Healthcare illiteracy is a term that comes to mind and these patients are deathly scared when they are diagnosed with covid and then treated like less than a person. Although we not agree with everyone's personal opinions I think we need to remain empathetic 

[ventana]

51 minutes ago, kettle said:

Although we not agree with everyone's personal opinions I think we need to remain empathetic 

sorry but I disagree

I have no desire for empathy with someone who has refused vaccine against all the overwhelming proof out there.  it was their choice, now they get to live with the outcome.   Sorry but you must live with the outcomes of your own choices - same a getting a jail sentence for breaking the law or fines for speeding - live with it.....

 

I do not care for COVID + patients, and if I did I would care for all the same, to the best of my ability......

[Reality Check 2]

The fatigue, frustration and burnout of frontline folks is real.

I don't blame them for asking straight away if a patient is vaccinated.

Let's cut to the chase - you didn't get a vaccine and now you are sick and in my ER wanting care when you could have avoided this. AVOIDED, PREVENTED, BEEN CONSCIENTIOUS. 

We are losing frontline workers daily - hopefully not to COVID and death but many will be leaving medicine.

Reading stories about pregnant RNs dying from COVID after refusing vaccines and patients during intubation still claiming COVID IS A HOAX - it boggles my brain.  It saddens my soul and torpedoes my faith in humanity. 

How much can one handle? How long can you hear the BS and lack of gratitude before you don't want to do it any longer? 

How many deaths can one provider handle that they know could have been prevented or avoided?

How much hate, anger, disbelief and lack of faith in science do we have to put up with?

If I could make the same income doing just about anything right now - I would. 

So, anyone on front line - all my positive vibes to you!

 

[sas5814]

yea just saw a new VA bulletin. In recent weeks we have lost more staff to COVID than we have since this whole thing kicked off. I think if I spent all day trying to care for COVID patients I'd probably be in a rage by now. As it is I don't have much patience for the crazy deniers.

Saw a bit this morning I wish I had kept the link. Guy at a school board meeting got up for his 90 seconds and started explaining that he ran 4 stop signs going 80 in a 35 and parked in a handicapped spot because the government couldn't take away his rights. Then he started peeling off his tie and shirt and pants saying "I don't think my employer should be able to tell me to wear those. They are uncomfortable" until he was wearing nothing but a bathing suit. He closed by saying he hoped his point was obvious. There are things we do because they are mandated for the greater good.

[rev ronin]

They're drunk drivers: they fail to control themselves, hurt other people, and often aren't the ones paying the highest price for their recklessly malicious behavior.

We treat them all the same.  We try to help them, just like we try and help their victims, because we are the healers, not the courts. But yeah, righteous anger? You betcha.  It's the saints among us who can pity, rather than rage at, them.  Most of us are just human.

[CAAdmission]

12 hours ago, rev ronin said:

It's the saints among us who can pity, rather than rage at, them.  Most of us are just human.

That's the job, unfortunately.

[greenmood]

I get frustrated. Then I get bored and sweaty and more annoyed because I'm so sweaty. But I'm taking care of people who have it, it's not some theoretical discussion anymore.

I have found a silver lining. When they get sick enough a lot of them do cave and start asking about the vaccine. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And if they make it, they're usually a lot less feisty about the whole thing. And I've found they're so traumatized that many are willing to become vaccine-evangelists.

The only way to get through to some people now is to get a mole in there, a trusted source with a change of heart. I saw a photo on the Social Media a while back of a patient's ICU room door, where the nurses were tallying how many people had gotten the vaccine because of his illness.

[MediMike]

10 hours ago, CAAdmission said:

That's the job, unfortunately.

That's blatantly false.  The job is to treat them all the same, that's it. Full stop.  There is absolutely no ethical standard that we pity individuals who choose to not get vaccinated and then suffer the consequences of that decision.  Just as you're not required to pity those who show up with drug overdoses, MIs, fractures from drunk driving, lung CA from smoking etc.

Pity and empathy is nice, but definitely not required.