Social workers join doctorate level

[ventana]

Are we going to be the only non doctorate??

[kettle]

Pardon my language but the fact that current PA master degrees are not doctorate is BS. DNP is typically 80 credits with 800 clinical hours, most masters PA programs are 90 credits with 1600 clinical hours. Masters NP programs are around 50 credits. Jurious Doctorate (attorney) averages 85 credits/semester hours. Seriously contemplating getting my law degree and become a free lobbyists for PA's and EMS. Two professions that are vital, and get the short end of the stick. Geeze I can feel my blood pressure rising

[iconic]

Their DSW is optional; but they probably have more DSW programs than we have DMS. The few programs that offer DMSc seem to be out there trying to make money. Some nursing DNPs cost as little as 5k..

[Komorebi]

5 hours ago, kettle said:

Pardon my language but the fact that current PA master degrees are not doctorate is BS. DNP is typically 80 credits with 800 clinical hours, most masters PA programs are 90 credits with 1600 clinical hours. Masters NP programs are around 50 credits. Jurious Doctorate (attorney) averages 85 credits/semester hours. Seriously contemplating getting my law degree and become a free lobbyists for PA's and EMS. Two professions that are vital, and get the short end of the stick. Geeze I can feel my blood pressure rising

I believe the credit hours have nothing to do with it. Some sort of clinical project/dissertation is required for a DNP. Likely the same would be required for this DSW (same acronym as the shoe store which is weird.)

 

The PA degree is a master's degree because it's classes + clinicals. All they need to do is add some sort of "project" at the end to turn it into a doctorate. Not sure why they haven't.

 

Personally I hate degree creep and think it's just a cash grab. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Komorebi

[iconic]

I am pretty sure all PA programs require a master's thesis or project. This is what's frustrating to me about DMSc - at lease my MMS covered pretty much the same curriculum 

[ventana]

5 hours ago, Komorebi said:

 

 

Personally I hate degree creep and think it's just a cash grab. 

Me to -------- BUT-------I hate my profession disappearing into the abyss if we do not keep up with the other professions (we are getting killed by NPs in the market place right now)

 

Gotta get a DMSc as the entry degree, period.  All the PAs that think "we are fine" or the "doc's will protect us"   

read the recent replies to the name change to realize the doc's are our enemy (in the political realm not in the care delivery realm)  Nursing will advocate for themselves and are happy to throw us under the bus, all other professions will do the same.  We have for to long just flown under the radar.  No more, reach out and claim what is rightfully ours.  Demand respect in the Medical Establishments (how many CEO, Presidents, department heads in hospitals and insurance companies are PA's = very few!!)  

 

We must do this, full l force and get independence and if DMSc is the vehicle we ride in so be it 

[rev ronin]

My PA MS was $90k for 126 credit hours, graduating in 2012.

My DMSc will be about $22k for 36 credit hours, graduating in 2023.

What doctorate of anything, anywhere, requires 162 semester hours?

[iconic]

Also, let's not forget that most NP programs cost 30k or less and most NPs come out with little to no debt since they work while they are in school. Meanwhile, PA program costs have been rising out of control and most new PAs, myself including, cannot just jump ship due to student debt nor have a different career to fall back on, such as being an RN (How many NPs have gone back to bedside nursing during the pandemic to make more than they would as providers?)

Edited June 28, 2021 by iconic

[Boatswain2PA]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:15 AM, Komorebi said:

The PA degree is a master's degree because it's classes + clinicals. All they need to do is add some sort of "project" at the end to turn it into a doctorate. Not sure why they haven't.

Wrong.  

Masters level programs also require some sort of "project" (using your words, the correct word is a Masters Thesis).

My masters thesis for my MPH was a 50 page research project on the Spanish Influenza Pandemic that covered everything from the structure of the virus to it's pathophysiology to the depopulation of Philadelphia, and from President Wilson's flagrant abuse of the Sedition and Espionage act to how the pandemic affected the war (including likely bringing it to an end much sooner than it otherwise would have).   My thesis was what a similar pandemic would look like in 2011.  I was only off by 9 years, but turns out I was wrong on everything else as well.  I also had to defend my thesis against three professors.

My masters research project for my MPAS was to do "publishable" research. Mine actually got published.  It was also utter crap.  You don't have time to do actual research while in PA school because you are learning medicine in a very short period of time.  

Before the massive degree creep that started twenty years ago (somewhat led by nurse practitioner academia), a doctorate would never be bestowed upon someone for "doing some sort of 'project'".  The definition of a "Doctorate" was someone who added to the knowledge of all of mankind.  A Doctorate thesis was (and still is in "real" Doctorates) something that required the candidate to find or prove information that no-one has ever found or proved before, thereby adding to the total sum of human knowledge.  And the candidate had to defend their thesis to prove that it was likely accurate, and nobody else had ever proved/found this before.

There were two "professional" doctorates at that time as well, the MD and JD, which was granted not because the students created new knowledge for mankind, but were rather awarded as recognition of #1) the learning of a massive amount of information, and #2) being the top of their respective professions.

Unfortunately, mostly led by the NP academia types, nearly everyone in medicine has bastardized the doctorate now.  DNP, DPT, AUD, DMS, XYZD....etc.

Who benefits from this?  Mankind doesn't because none of these "doctorates" requires the doctoral candidate to produce new knowledge for mankind.   Instead, they just have to do some sort of "project".  The "student" doesn't benefit because it costs tens of thousands of dollars more to get the doctorate versus the Masters, Bachelors, or even associate degree that was acceptable just a few decades before.  Patients don't benefit either, and are often left confused by who the actual "doctor!" is.

The only ones to benefit from such degree creep are the academic types who get to charge for the "doctorate".

Edited June 29, 2021 by Boatswain2PA

[Boatswain2PA]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:39 PM, kettle said:

Pardon my language but the fact that current PA master degrees are not doctorate is BS. DNP is typically 80 credits with 800 clinical hours, most masters PA programs are 90 credits with 1600 clinical hours.

This is also because definitions no longer really apply.  Kaitlyn Jenner is a woman, and some British lady is now a Korean man.  (http://www.truenewshub.com/summit/british-influencer-now-trans-racial-identifies-as-korean/)

Before the days of "everyone gets a medal" and confusing degree creep (see above post), a "credit hour" generally mean how many hours a week a student spent in the classroom.

Take a 3 credit hour class, expect to spend 3 hours a week in the classroom.  The "credit hour" was the same for undergrad, graduate, and doctorate.  

The PA profession didn't do this 40+ years ago because they didn't want to charge their students for being in the classroom 40+ hours a week for 2 years (more than TWICE the average classroom time/credit hours that other students did).  If they did this, the associate degree the seminal PAs were awarded would have to have been doctorates.  Same thing applies now to PA students.  Of course, that would also double the cost for students......

This has since been bastardized the other direction by many other degree programs as well.  Online class for 1 hour a week, no problem they will count it as a 3 credit hour class because, you know, you might have to study or something.  Academia still charges you for the 3 credit hours....

Edited June 29, 2021 by Boatswain2PA

[sas5814]

9 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Who benefits from this?  Mankind doesn't because none of these "doctorates" requires the doctoral candidate to produce new knowledge for mankind.   Instead, they just have to do some sort of "project".  The "student" doesn't benefit because it costs tens of thousands of dollars more to get the doctorate versus the Masters, Bachelors, or even associate degree that was acceptable just a few decades before.  Patients don't benefit either, and are often left confused by who the actual "doctor!" is.

I think there is a difference in a PhD and, for instance, a DNP. The PhD is supposed to bring some new knowledge to the world. Non-PhD doctorates (generally) are for superior levels of education and training.

That was an explanation given by Dr. Randy Danielson and I generally trust his take on such things.

 

That said we are going to have to follow the trend like it or not. Its just another of those bitter pills we have to swallow. I want to know why there are no bridge programs like there was when we made the jump to masters degrees. Oh yea.... schools are making bank on the new doctoral programs.

Edited June 29, 2021 by sas5814

[Komorebi]

14 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Wrong.  

Masters level programs also require some sort of "project" (using your words, the correct word is a Masters Thesis).

My masters thesis for my MPH was a 50 page research project on the Spanish Influenza Pandemic that covered everything from the structure of the virus to it's pathophysiology to the depopulation of Philadelphia, and from President Wilson's flagrant abuse of the Sedition and Espionage act to how the pandemic affected the war (including likely bringing it to an end much sooner than it otherwise would have).   My thesis was what a similar pandemic would look like in 2011.  I was only off by 9 years, but turns out I was wrong on everything else as well.  I also had to defend my thesis against three professors.

My masters research project for my MPAS was to do "publishable" research. Mine actually got published.  It was also utter crap.  You don't have time to do actual research while in PA school because you are learning medicine in a very short period of time.  

Before the massive degree creep that started twenty years ago (somewhat led by nurse practitioner academia), a doctorate would never be bestowed upon someone for "doing some sort of 'project'".  The definition of a "Doctorate" was someone who added to the knowledge of all of mankind.  A Doctorate thesis was (and still is in "real" Doctorates) something that required the candidate to find or prove information that no-one has ever found or proved before, thereby adding to the total sum of human knowledge.  And the candidate had to defend their thesis to prove that it was likely accurate, and nobody else had ever proved/found this before.

There were two "professional" doctorates at that time as well, the MD and JD, which was granted not because the students created new knowledge for mankind, but were rather awarded as recognition of #1) the learning of a massive amount of information, and #2) being the top of their respective professions.

Unfortunately, mostly led by the NP academia types, nearly everyone in medicine has bastardized the doctorate now.  DNP, DPT, AUD, DMS, XYZD....etc.

Who benefits from this?  Mankind doesn't because none of these "doctorates" requires the doctoral candidate to produce new knowledge for mankind.   Instead, they just have to do some sort of "project".  The "student" doesn't benefit because it costs tens of thousands of dollars more to get the doctorate versus the Masters, Bachelors, or even associate degree that was acceptable just a few decades before.  Patients don't benefit either, and are often left confused by who the actual "doctor!" is.

The only ones to benefit from such degree creep are the academic types who get to charge for the "doctorate".

Twice you blamed NPs for degree creep. I understand you may not be fond of NPs, but you should make sure that complaints are rooted in fact:

The first DPT program started in 1992. First graduating class 1996 from Creighton University.

First AUD program was established at Baylor U in 1994.

Doctor of Occupational therapy? 1998.

Pharm D - 1950

 

One of the most recent? The DNP program, with the first one starting in 2001 at the University of Kentucky.

 

Nurses aren't responsible for the degree creep, but we DID adapt to it and ensure our credentials kept up with a changing world to ensure we remain competitive for positions and with legislators when fighting for independence. 

 

[Boatswain2PA]

You forgot Dr Pepper in 1895.

I mentioned pharmd, aud, dpt, etc.

The degree creep in nursing is what most affects PAs.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Boatswain2PA

[Komorebi]

24 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

You forgot Dr Pepper in 1895.

I mentioned pharmd, aud, dpt, etc.

The degree creep in nursing is what most affects PAs.

 

It's not the job of nurses to hold themselves back for PAs benefit though. Degree creep wasn't started by nurses but nurses did keep up with it. PAs have not. That causes a competitive disadvantage for PAs.

[surgblumm]

Why did they not choose to get a Doctorate in Psychology?

[MediMike]

5 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Twice you blamed NPs for degree creep. I understand you may not be fond of NPs, but you should make sure that complaints are rooted in fact:

The first DPT program started in 1992. First graduating class 1996 from Creighton University.

First AUD program was established at Baylor U in 1994.

Doctor of Occupational therapy? 1998.

Pharm D - 1950

 

One of the most recent? The DNP program, with the first one starting in 2001 at the University of Kentucky.

 

Nurses aren't responsible for the degree creep, but we DID adapt to it and ensure our credentials kept up with a changing world to ensure we remain competitive for positions and with legislators when fighting for independence. 

 

@Boatswain2PA they got you man. Own it.

[Boatswain2PA]

They got me by agreeing with what I said?

Ok.

[PAinPenna]

2 hours ago, Komorebi said:

It's not the job of nurses to hold themselves back for PAs benefit though. Degree creep wasn't started by nurses but nurses did keep up with it. PAs have not. That causes a competitive disadvantage for PAs.

You make a great point . Just because NPs are crushing it legislatively does not mean they are at fault for our issues . We can learn a lot from our colleagues . 
also - I see many more PAs complaining about NPs than vice versa . This is admirable . Let’s all take the high road while we are doing the hard work to advance our profession 

[CAAdmission]

On 6/27/2021 at 7:53 AM, ventana said:

All the PAs that think "we are fine" or the "doc's will protect us"   

Anyone thinking this at this point is so far out of touch with reality there is no helping them. 

[EMEDPA]

Also

Doc Holiday, 1851 (gunslingers who are also dentists adopt a doctoral standard). 

Dr J, 1950 (basketball goes to a doctoral standard) 

Dr Dre 1965 (rap music goes to a doctoral standard) 

 

In all seriousness, NPs did not start the degree creep trend as noted above by others, but in the Non-physician provider category they were the first to transition to both MS and Doctoral levels, prompting PAs to do the same. 

I am not convinced that a PA or NP with a doctoral education is a better clinical provider than one with a certificate. Clinical training makes clinical providers. extra courses in stats, health care management, etc add nothing to the patient's experience. I was caught up in the postgrad transition to an MS in the 90s after initialing getting a BS for my PA program and was a bit ahead of the PA doctoral curve, completing my DHSc in 2015. I got my doctorate for 2 main reasons: there was funding available for me to do it without taking on new debt and I have a genuine interest in global health. I think the way I structured my program improves my abilities overseas on medical missions and has less of an impact on patients I see here at home, unless they have malaria or a neglected tropical disease, etc. 

 

[Joelseff]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:36 AM, CAAdmission said:

Anyone thinking this at this point is so far out of touch with reality there is no helping them. 

You should check out the HUDDLE... Lots of out of touch individuals... 

[ohiovolffemtp]

On 6/30/2021 at 1:34 PM, EMEDPA said:

Also

Doc Holiday, 1851 (gunslingers who are also dentists adopt a doctoral standard). 

Dr J, 1950 (basketball goes to a doctoral standard) 

Dr Dre 1965 (rap music goes to a doctoral standard) 

Also, Dr. Demento, 1970 (radio MC's go to a doctoral standard - though in reality he has a masters)

[ventana]

10 hours ago, Joelseff said:

You should check out the HUDDLE... Lots of out of touch individuals... 

we need to invade huddle and change the conversation....

[sas5814]

14 minutes ago, ventana said:

we need to invade huddle and change the conversation....

Good luck. It is PC moderated so aggressively anything beyond teeth aching politeness gets deleted. They have a group of "safe space" moderators assisted by some old "everything is fine" dinosaurs.

[ventana]

48 minutes ago, sas5814 said:

Good luck. It is PC moderated so aggressively anything beyond teeth aching politeness gets deleted. They have a group of "safe space" moderators assisted by some old "everything is fine" dinosaurs.

yup I have been "deleted" a number of times....  annoying and I gave up

but now the counterpoints need to be made

 

can the new board of AAPA maybe step in??  any allies that can force change from the inside??