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9 hours ago, rev ronin said:

You truly don't understand what I said, do you?

The reasons for "coming to the opposite conclusion when presented with evidence" can have one of two fundamental causes:

- the person remains ill-informed.  There's nothing about the presentation of evidence that necessarily informs any person receiving it.  It may be poorly presented, contradict strongly held beliefs of whatever nature, literally a million different reasons could interfere with a patient internalizing the correct information with which they are presented.  Thus, the patient remains uninformed despite being exposed to correct, beneficial information.

- Alternatively, they could have truly understood and internalized the message and the risk/benefit ratio to themselves and others... and simply not care. That would be psychopathological, in my technically incorrect usage of an outdated term that quite adequately conveys exactly what I mean.

Thus, my assertion remains that the set of people who 1) really understand Covid-19 vaccination, 2) refuse every available Covid-19 vaccine, and 3) act conscientiously in doing so is the null set.

I see. So in this thread, you have made up your own definitions of ill-informed, un-informed, vaccine hesitancy, psychopath, and herd immunity. Clearly, you are obfuscating and backtracking into semantics at this point, so again, I refer you to the literature to acquire a basic working vocabulary on the subject. You are neither ill-informed nor a psychopath, you are simply evidence hesitant, which is hilarious, given the argument you are trying to make.

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Generally, I am a guy who supports individual freedom. However, this pandemic affects us all.  If you don't want your covid vaccine, fine.  But I don't want my activities restricted because of yo

Everyone on this forum required a “vaccine passport” to attend PA school, PA rotations, and to even set foot in the hospital for clinical practice. In the hospital that typically includes influenza. T

Being a healthcare worker doesn't preclude one from being poorly informed or a psychopath.

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If we can remove emotion from the issue for a moment - not something that is done anymore - it's relatively logical for someone to be vaccine hesitant. The potential long-term effects of this vaccination are unknown, simply because it has not been available long term. 

Since I graduated PA school, there have been a ton of medications (including some vaccines) that were once FDA approved and subsequently removed from the market due to unforeseen effects. Each day will bring more data. If someone thinks they can adequately protect themself against catching the virus using easily available precautions, that might be a prudent judgement. Only time will tell. Each person ultimately has to do their own risk stratification.

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2 hours ago, mcclane said:

I see. So in this thread, you have made up your own definitions of ill-informed, un-informed, vaccine hesitancy, psychopath, and herd immunity. Clearly, you are obfuscating and backtracking into semantics at this point, so again, I refer you to the literature to acquire a basic working vocabulary on the subject. You are neither ill-informed nor a psychopath, you are simply evidence hesitant, which is hilarious, given the argument you are trying to make.

I'll take it with under advisement, with all due and proper weight. I'll also note for the record that I have authored part of that body of research.

If you would, do answer me this: On what basis did you expect a statement that used 'psychopath', a term that has fallen out of favor and common use decades ago, to be an attempt to summarize current research on hazard communication using current terminology, rather than a value statement?

The moral of the story, for those observing, is some people will aggressively misunderstand anything substantive, whether out of simple error or malicious intent; Hanlon's razor favors the former.

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6 cases out of 7 million doses administered. I'd say "abundance of caution" is an understatement.

As stated I think everyone gets to stratify risks by their own personal metric. However, on matters of public policy I don't think you get to complain if you choose not to get vaccinated and then you can't travel internationally (or get on a plane at all). 

I have an old friend who is on a rant saying it will be used to "discriminate" on things like who can get in the grocery store. Nah.....

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34 minutes ago, CJAadmission said:

6 cases of CVST out of nearly 7 million doses.

CVST occurs in 5 people per million annually.

Chance of being struck by lightning 1/700,000 annually.

Chace of VTE with OCPs is 1 in 3,000.

We'll see. In some ways this is a good thing they noticed this and are doing something about it. I'm sure it won't help confidence. On the other hand, I don't know if it is ethical to withhold a life-saving vaccine over something so rare.

Edited by TheFatMan
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25 minutes ago, TheFatMan said:

6 cases of CVST out of nearly 7 million doses.

CVST occurs in 5 people per million annually.

Chance of being struck by lightning 1/700,000 annually.

Chace of VTE with OCPs is 1 in 3,000.

We'll see. In some ways this is a good thing they noticed this and are doing something about it. I'm sure it won't help confidence. On the other hand, I don't know if it is ethical to withhold a life-saving vaccine over something so rare.

Exactly.  Also the pause is suppose to last just a few days.  Big wank.

Edited by Cideous
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1 hour ago, sas5814 said:

As stated I think everyone gets to stratify risks by their own personal metric. However, on matters of public policy I don't think you get to complain if you choose not to get vaccinated and then you can't travel internationally (or get on a plane at all). 

Permitted or not, my personal risk stratification is that it's epically stupid to get on an airplane at all during a pandemic (unless you own it and you're the only one on board).

 

1 hour ago, TheFatMan said:

6 cases of CVST out of nearly 7 million doses.

CVST occurs in 5 people per million annually.

Chance of being struck by lightning 1/700,000 annually.

Chace of VTE with OCPs is 1 in 3,000.

We'll see. In some ways this is a good thing they noticed this and are doing something about it. I'm sure it won't help confidence. On the other hand, I don't know if it is ethical to withhold a life-saving vaccine over something so rare.

I agree with you and that's more my issue. If the number is so trivial, why call a halt at all? Does the CDC not employ statisticians? What's the morbidity related to non-CVST clots? I'm told that government knows best and I should trust them at all times, so this must be a big deal. 

Are most people educated enough to know the differences between vaccines, and to select one with a more favorable risk profile? I think most people sign up online for whatever vaccine is available, no questions asked. 

 

57 minutes ago, Cideous said:

Big wank.

Like so many things in medicine these days. 

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13 minutes ago, CJAadmission said:

 

I agree with you and that's more my issue. If the number is so trivial, why call a halt at all? Does the CDC not employ statisticians? What's the morbidity related to non-CVST clots? I'm told that government knows best and I should trust them at all times, so this must be a big deal. 

Are most people educated enough to know the differences between vaccines, and to select one with a more favorable risk profile? I think most people sign up online for whatever vaccine is available, no questions asked. 

 

Yeah...I dunno. Lots of eyes on them and maybe they thought if they didn't do something about it people would think they were covering things up.
I may misunderstand this, but I think it is a recommendation and not a hard 'stop right now.' Although the publicity of it makes that kind of inevitable.

Re: Trump. Not agreeing with him, and I don't think you'd agree with him either. He says the executive branch should have interfered with the CDC to reverse their new recommendations. I don't agree with that at all.

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3 hours ago, sas5814 said:

6 cases out of 7 million doses administered. I'd say "abundance of caution" is an understatement.

It's worse than that: humans are terrible at understanding the reality of high-impact, ultra-low-frequency events.  We all think we're going to win the powerball and/or die in a commercial jet airliner crash. So, the impact of people mistakenly assuming the vaccine's danger might impact them will clearly lead to more mortality and morbidity through hesitancy than might possibly be saved through the vaccine being paused and restarted, even in a declining-infection and declining-mortality environment.

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5 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

This is gold!

Thank you.  Feel free to use it with wild abandon, because I either dreamed it up myself while trying to illustrate this concept to people who don't get what a risk assessment is during my past IT security career... or I estimate a 20% chance I stole it from someone else and have just forgotten where I heard it.  🙂

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On 4/12/2021 at 9:50 AM, rev ronin said:

I'll take it with under advisement, with all due and proper weight. I'll also note for the record that I have authored part of that body of research.

Ok, where is it? I'll read it.

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I love the idea of a vaccine passport. I am a huge international traveler and the pandemic has made traveling almost impossible. If vaccine passports allow vaccinated people to finally travel again, I am all for it. I have often gone to countries that have requirements for entry - specific vaccines, VISAs, etc. If they want to require a vaccine for COVID-19 as well, that is their right. Travelers do not have a right to decline ANY requirements a country imposes before letting you inside the borders - it is their country, their rules. If you can't comply, don't visit.

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