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22 minutes ago, CJAadmission said:

I neither need nor am I counting on you to do anything to help me say safe. I don't care what "the village" does. 

I understand where you are coming from, but I have a feeling that those families with individuals who have cancer, immunosuppression, etc might feel differently about it. Same goes to the families of children who are too young to receive this vaccine (yes - very low risk, but no real protection for them once social distancing and masking stops; would prefer to know those people around my kids are vaccinated). 

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Generally, I am a guy who supports individual freedom. However, this pandemic affects us all.  If you don't want your covid vaccine, fine.  But I don't want my activities restricted because of yo

Everyone on this forum required a “vaccine passport” to attend PA school, PA rotations, and to even set foot in the hospital for clinical practice. In the hospital that typically includes influenza. T

Being a healthcare worker doesn't preclude one from being poorly informed or a psychopath.

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your ability to make a stupid bad decision does not/ should not  my right not not get COVID and infect my children

So by that logic, you are fine with taking everyone's cars away because they might have an accident while not paying attention; alcohol should be banned because someone might drink and drive; guns should be outlawed because someone might get shot; roller coasters should be banned because the seat belt might fail. This is the slippery slope to which I was referring. The government has already shown in my state that they are willing to overstep. Businesses have been shut down because they dared to defy the "orders" of the governor without legislative input. I guess I just don't totally and blindly trust the government to do what it was designed for without injecting politics. Everyone has an agenda like it or not.

I agree with CJ, I'll take responsibility for my family. If you are that worried about a virus that has a negligible fatality rate for minors, keep them home. My minor children will not be getting the vaccine at this time unless mandated. They also haven't gotten Gardasil. They have been vaccinated for school, but those vaccines have years of track record. Maybe after much more research of this vaccine is obtained, I will reconsider for them. Again, this is MY (and my wife's) choice. I likely at some point will get or maybe be forced to get the vaccine, but at this time I am CHOOSING to hold off. I am NOT discouraging anyone from making that CHOICE for themselves. 

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18 minutes ago, briansk said:

So by that logic, you are fine with taking everyone's cars away because they might have an accident while not paying attention; alcohol should be banned because someone might drink and drive; guns should be outlawed because someone might get shot; roller coasters should be banned because the seat belt might fail. This is the slippery slope to which I was referring.

I think the slippery slope here is your argument.

In order to drive a vehicle, I must have a driver's license and I must present it when asked to do so. This is a safety precaution. There are laws against drinking and driving, and actions are taken against those who are found to be drinking while intoxicated. They are not telling people they need to be in a bubble for the rest of their lives or to never fly, travel, go to sports, etc...they're simply asking for documentation showing you've taken precautions to keep the public safe. Roller Coasters - you have to prove you're tall enough and they tell you if you have certain health conditions - don't do it. Regarding guns, yup, there should be more restrictions. Background checks should be more universal and you should need a license and training to utilize at least certain weapons.

Also, see Jacobson vs Mass 1905: "There is, of course, a sphere within which the individual may assert the supremacy of his own will and rightfully dispute the authority of any human government, especially of any free government existing under a written constitution. But it is equally true that in every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."

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1 hour ago, CJAadmission said:

I take personal responsibility for the safety of my family. We will mask, vaccinate, distance and sanitize as needed to keep us safe.

I neither need nor am I counting on you to do anything to help me say safe. I don't care what "the village" does. 

That's a silly statement man and you know it. You rely on the "village" to design and enforce laws against drunk driving so no one plows into your family when you're out on the road, to regulate the safety of the medicine/food/booze/guns that you buy, to keep the roads paved and in good repair to get you to work.  

All of that is "the village". Unless you live completely off of the grid and inna compound in the woods not receiving fire, law enforcement or military protection...you rely on others.

You know this, ya ain't no Grizzly Adams.

Unless you in fact are, in which case hats off to you sir.

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1 hour ago, TheFatMan said:

I understand where you are coming from, but I have a feeling that those families with individuals who have cancer, immunosuppression, etc might feel differently about it. Same goes to the families of children who are too young to receive this vaccine (yes - very low risk, but no real protection for them once social distancing and masking stops; would prefer to know those people around my kids are vaccinated). 

Again, to play devil's advocate - these families have problems they need to deal with. There is no reason why this needs to become everyone else's problem. As Emed suggested above, they can get their groceries delivered, right? They can wear N95 masks and gloves all the time. It's nice to live in a society where people look out for each other. It's not nice to live in a society where it is mandated to do so. 

If Bubba Redneck wants to not get a shot and not wear a mask, I don't care as long as he is not running around licking doorknobs. If soccer mom Karen wants to wear an N95 mask and gloves while driving alone in her own personal vehicle (usually a BMW) I don't care. I have no problem with a private establishment demanding patrons wear a mask. I have no problem with a state saying it is no longer required. Let's all live our lives. 

 

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4 hours ago, TheFatMan said:

 

Calling this the "erosion of individual liberty and health privacy" is a bit hyperbolic. 

It's funny, people like you are the same group who thought I was crazy when I said "hey your phone/tv is recording what you say" or hey the patriot act is actually a way for the government to wire tap every citizen without a warrant. Now all of that is common knowledge and we've lost privacy even in our own homes due to it. Vaccine passports and the like are a step in the direction of being required to show proof of your health status to live life normally which is an interference into your right as a citizen. And it's largely something we don't need. We have proof people are getting vaccinated from the doses being used, we see numbers dropping. The last thing we need to make us feel "safe" is some authority telling us to open up our book of records every time we want to go live our life.  For the record, I don't think anyone should ever get a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt since you brought it up. 

Everyone wants to get on their soapbox when some legal injustice takes place against someone (most of the time against a minority). I'm sitting here wondering why we keep implementing all of these rules that give many of the people committing these acts of injustice more reason to inspect you for what is likely a victimless "crime". At the end of the day, people will all never agree or disagree with a vaccine passport. But the post asked so I shared my points. 

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10 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

get it delivered.

a great number of people in this country are in financial duress and can hardly afford groceries. Let alone pay someone to bring it to them. 

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In summary, this clearly has nothing to do with a “vaccine passport” as this originally began. Rather more so vaccine hesitancy, antivax, conspiracy theory, virus denying/downplaying, personal political influence, and the theoretical violation of ‘do no harm’ secondary to said beliefs. There is no vaccine passport. This is known. There will be no vaccine passport, this has been stated. But that doesn’t change the real issue here. I truly hope some of the members here do not interact with transplant patients. 

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It is always a balancing act and there will always be people on both sides of the divide. I tend to take a fairly libertarian view of most things but my flavor of libertarianism is a bit different from most. I think you should be able to do just about anything that doesn't infringe on other people. Therein is the split because what constitutes infringement is often a matter of opinion.

As a lifetime motorcyclist I have heard the arguments about helmet laws ad nauseum. "Not wearing a helmet is a personal choice. It doesn't hurt anyone but me." Sort of.... when you have a fall and hit your head on the curb because your back tire slipped in some dog poop during a low speed maneuver and an accident you could have walked away from lands you in the ICU and then rehab for a year with permanent brain damage...who bears the cost? Not you because, even if you are well insured the cost spreads to all of us.

You want to be a heroin junkie? OK by me. Don't call an ambulance when you OD.

So big personal choice has to come with equal responsibility.

Then the slippery slope starts as has been implied...

Can't be a heroin junkie? OK.... alcoholic? No. Then heavy drinker? No that drives up health care costs too.

OK how about obese people? Gotta stop those fatties because they are driving up health care costs too.

So the slippery slope picks up speed the further down you go.

The line has to be a balance between public good, personal choice, and personal responsibility.

Vaccine passports? I don't care. I  have had to prove vaccine status many times over the years. I also don't care if the intelligence community is hoovering up my cell phone and internet data as an immeasurably small piece of global monitoring. 

If my boring life amuses them then that means nothing bad is happening anywhere else in the world.

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2 hours ago, sas5814 said:

As a lifetime motorcyclist I have heard the arguments about helmet laws ad nauseum. "Not wearing a helmet is a personal choice. It doesn't hurt anyone but me." Sort of.... when you have a fall and hit your head on the curb because your back tire slipped in some dog poop during a low speed maneuver and an accident you could have walked away from lands you in the ICU and then rehab for a year with permanent brain damage...who bears the cost? Not you because, even if you are well insured the cost spreads to all of us.

 

There are people who would push this line of reasoning even further: why ride a motorcycle at all? You don't NEED to ride a motorcycle - we have cars. In a crash, motorcycles are more dangerous. Plus they are loud, and scary, and enable motorcycle gangs to form. 

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FWIW, I slipped my Covid-19 administration sheet in the same passport-sized sleeve along with my state and international vaccination records, as well as the EMR printout of my titers and past vaccinations. I got in the habit of carrying it during PA school, and I've never quit.

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6 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

In summary, this clearly has nothing to do with a “vaccine passport” as this originally began. Rather more so vaccine hesitancy, antivax, conspiracy theory, virus denying/downplaying, personal political influence, and the theoretical violation of ‘do no harm’ secondary to said beliefs. There is no vaccine passport. This is known. There will be no vaccine passport, this has been stated. But that doesn’t change the real issue here. I truly hope some of the members here do not interact with transplant patients. 

Well when you're talking about government mandated vaccine passports it would be odd for "personal political influence" to not come into play. So at the end of the day I would say that politics has more to do with vaccine passports than any other factor. Which is why collectively there would never be full agreement on one choice. I totally understand your view point and the view points of others. However, I just don't adopt those beliefs for others. As I said before, I am pro vaccine, I trust the science and encourage vaccination. However, at the end of the day it is each person's choice as it should be.

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Let's be clear, vaccine passports as mentioned would only be for travel and NOT GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE.  That is the typical "slippery slope" argument given by all conspiracy theorists and it's bullcrap.  You needed vac's to go to school, your kids need them to go to school there is nothing nefarious about it.  You live in a society and as such have certain responsibilities to it.  Don't like it?  Move to an island in the South Pacific all alone.  But if you like power, water, hospitals etc...stop your bitch'n and act like a responsible citizen grounded in science. Bah.  

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9 hours ago, Cideous said:

Let's be clear, vaccine passports as mentioned would only be for travel and NOT GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE.

Think what you like, but I think we can be pretty sure that there are enough people that are hysterically covidophobic out there that they will seek to apply this to other things outside of travel. 

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9 hours ago, Cideous said:

Let's be clear, vaccine passports as mentioned would only be for travel and NOT GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE.

That isn't totally true. Cuomo in NY has suggested that all sporting events and concerts will need a passport to enter, and I believe is also encouraging business to do the same. 

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23 hours ago, briansk said:

So by that logic, you are fine with taking everyone's cars away because they might have an accident while not paying attention; alcohol should be banned because someone might drink and drive; guns should be outlawed because someone might get shot; roller coasters should be banned because the seat belt might fail.

People who have a history of driving dangerously can and do face legal consequences, including losing their driver's licenses.  Police stop drivers who are driving recklessly and test their sobriety.  Bartenders take away keys from patrons who are drinking so they won't drive.  People who get DUI's can lose their driving privileges.  Roller coasters are subject to regulations and testing and if any incidents happen, there is a legal investigation.  People should have to have a background check before being allowed to purchase a gun.  If their history or their behavior show that they would be likely to not be safe with a gun, then they are not allowed to purchase one.  

We need to weigh benefits versus risks any time that we are putting the public good above individual liberty.  In the above examples, there are ways to identify risk and minimize the risk in order to protect public safety.  If someone chooses to drive in an unsafe manner, then they shouldn't be allowed to drive.  if someone chooses to put others at risk for COVID 19 by choosing to not get vaccinated or not wear a mask, then they lose privileges of being around other people.  

I support a vaccine passport, but I think that a little more time needs to be given for everyone who is willing to get a vaccine to be able to.  In my area, it has only been in the past week or two that vaccines have been open to everyone.  Some people who very much want to get vaccinated may not have been able to get appointments yet and should not be penalized.  But in a couple of months?  By that time, everyone should have been able to get vaccinated should have been able to do so.  As long as we all breathe the same air (as physiology mandates), then we all need to take responsibility for not infecting each other.

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On 4/7/2021 at 7:43 AM, CJAadmission said:

I neither need nor am I counting on you to do anything to help me say safe. I don't care what "the village" does. 

Thank-you for clearly sharing with us the lies that you tell yourself every day to justify your belief system.

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On 4/6/2021 at 6:30 PM, rev ronin said:

No person who is 1) well informed, and 2) not a psychopath will refuse all of the available Covid-19 vaccines.

This does not characterize the current body of evidence regarding vaccine hesitancy.

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9 minutes ago, mcclane said:

This does not characterize the current body of evidence regarding vaccine hesitancy.

Vaccine hesitancy is, in my experience which doesn't constitute science, varied. There are reasonable people who are uncomfortable with the speed the vaccines were rolled out and concerned about long term implications. Got it.

I can't make this up.... these are just a few things people have told me and they were sincere.

These shots have dead baby cells in them

It will give me Bells Palsy

The whole thing is made up by a bunch of bored billionaires who are doing "all this" for fun

There is a tracking chip in the shots so the government can monitor me

The number of dead people they report is made up

This is just something big pharma created to make money

 

and on and on. Now even these loons have a right to their opinion. The rest of us have a right to be safe from them.

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1 hour ago, mcclane said:

This does not characterize the current body of evidence regarding vaccine hesitancy.

By "well informed" I'm including both evidence of vaccine safety and efficacy (including lack of microchips, etc.), as well as risk/benefit logic.  Hmm.  Ok, I also modify my statement to limit it to those making decisions on behalf of adults.  Given those caveats,  would you further assess my statement as inaccurate, and if so, how?

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3 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

By "well informed" I'm including both evidence of vaccine safety and efficacy (including lack of microchips, etc.), as well as risk/benefit logic.  Hmm.  Ok, I also modify my statement to limit it to those making decisions on behalf of adults.  Given those caveats,  would you further assess my statement as inaccurate, and if so, how?

I'm just thinking of the healthcare workers who refuse it, which may be the worst subtype (because they have influence). I think there was at least one of us in this thread who said they weren't getting it or were waiting to get it for some reason.

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3 hours ago, briansk said:

That isn't totally true. Cuomo in NY has suggested that all sporting events and concerts will need a passport to enter, and I believe is also encouraging business to do the same. 

Would you be opposed to businesses making the rule that they would require evidence of vaccination prior to entering?

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On 4/7/2021 at 7:55 AM, roundabout said:

a great number of people in this country are in financial duress and can hardly afford groceries. Let alone pay someone to bring it to them. 

agree. And a lot of those folks are "essential workers" , who interact with the public and should be vaccinated

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42 minutes ago, MediMike said:

Would you be opposed to businesses making the rule that they would require evidence of vaccination prior to entering?

No, not at all. But I'm also not opposed to a business saying they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, so you'd find my overall views odious. 

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31 minutes ago, MediMike said:

Would you be opposed to businesses making the rule that they would require evidence of vaccination prior to entering?

Not necessarily, their business, their choice. I would say that is potentially a form of discrimination based on health status. Let me ask a hypothetical. Would you be opposed to businesses requiring a flu vaccine prior to entering? How about meningitis vaccine? What about requiring face shields and gloves? And then where does it stop? Would it then be acceptable to deny access because of disability, BMI, (I get that is not exactly the same, but that is the type of slippery slope I fear).

I think that if businesses start creating barriers for customers, their business will likely suffer and may not survive. That would be their choice. What I have a problem with is the GOVERNMENT making those decisions for those companies as the shutdowns did over the past year in states such as Pennsylvania where I live. Many of those small companies deemed non-essential will never return.  

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