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I wanted to get opinions from the board on vaccine passports.  How do you feel about vaccine passports for employment, school, events, or domestic travel.  Thanks, eager to hear your thoughts.

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Generally, I am a guy who supports individual freedom. However, this pandemic affects us all.  If you don't want your covid vaccine, fine.  But I don't want my activities restricted because of yo

Everyone on this forum required a “vaccine passport” to attend PA school, PA rotations, and to even set foot in the hospital for clinical practice. In the hospital that typically includes influenza. T

Being a healthcare worker doesn't preclude one from being poorly informed or a psychopath.

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I think, at least for a while, it just makes sense. We may reach a point where we have a handle on this and they will become superfluous but it won't be for a while.

I don't worry a lot about "big brother" type stuff. We are all so digitally connected one more thing really won't make much difference.

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Generally, I am a guy who supports individual freedom.

However, this pandemic affects us all.  If you don't want your covid vaccine, fine.  But I don't want my activities restricted because of you.  I want to be able to travel and go to restaurants and shows, etc.  I want kids to go to school.  I want small businesses to do well and our economy to improve.  I want people to stop dying needlessly.

I want normalcy back.  The way to do that is herd immunity.

If a "vaccine passport" helps us get there, so be it.

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I mean, we already have to have passports to travel, and many countries require other vaccinations. I don't think it is a big deal. Same thoughts for school and other things like that. Many vaccines are already required (i.e. MenB and MenA,C,Y in college), and if people choose not to be vaccinated then they should be willing to accept the outcome. 

I wonder if this will lead to people paying for phony vaccine passports like some do for exemption letters.

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Totally against it. If you want the vaccine, great. If you want to wait or opt out, great. Your choice and none of my business. Requiring a vaccine passport is such a slippery slope and I want much less government invasion in my life, not more.

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On 4/6/2021 at 11:31 AM, briansk said:

Totally against it. If you want the vaccine, great. If you want to wait or opt out, great. Your choice and none of my business. Requiring a vaccine passport is such a slippery slope and I want much less government invasion in my life, not more.

Your individual freedom stops at my health and the health of my family.  Don't have a right to wantonly spread a potentially deadly disease.  You need vac's to go to school, travel etc.  This is no different.

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Everyone on this forum required a “vaccine passport” to attend PA school, PA rotations, and to even set foot in the hospital for clinical practice. In the hospital that typically includes influenza. This shouldn’t be a foreign concept to anyone here. 

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1 hour ago, Cideous said:

Your individual freedom stops at my health and the health of my family.  Don't have a right to wantonly spread a potentially deadly disease.  You needs vac's to go to school, travel etc.  This is no different.

Where do you the draw line? 

There are ton's of infectious diseases that exist that you can possibly be exposed to at anytime. There are activities you participate in that are a risk to you. If you're talking about individual freedom, every person has the right to go out and do things whether they have a vaccine or not. If your concern is YOUR health, and you are concerned about it you have 2 options. 1. get vaccinated or 2. stay at home. But your health concerns shouldn't be the basis of erosion of individual liberty and health privacy. 

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9 minutes ago, roundabout said:

But your health concerns shouldn't be the basis of erosion of individual liberty and health privacy. 

You could literally take this sentence and go in every direction possible. I suppose we ask you the same question, with lack of health concern for millions on the basis of your individual liberty and “health privacy”. Where is the line drawn?

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Why on earth do we need vaccine passports?  We're immunizing millions of people per week.  The issue isn't vaccine passports, it's vaccine refusal.  We are already experiencing herd immunity!  Not to the extent we'd like, since herd immunity is really a spectrum rather than a boolean, but the example of Israel shows that vaccines work to stop and/or slow Covid-19 by every reasonably objective measure. There's no reason to believe further vaccine uptake won't have appropriate squelching effects here.

No person who is 1) well informed, and 2) not a psychopath will refuse all of the available Covid-19 vaccines. It's long since past time when the psychopaths who advocate against vaccines in the public square using their state-issued medical or pseudo-medical (DC, ND, etc.) licenses go to jail. Being anti-vax (not skeptical or hesitant, but telling outright lies) as a medical professional during a pandemic is using your state-issued license to shout fire in a crowded theater.

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2 hours ago, briansk said:

Totally against it. If you want the vaccine, great. If you want to wait or opt out, great. Your choice and none of my business. Requiring a vaccine passport is such a slippery slope and I want much less government invasion in my life, not more.

I'm really curious about what you think the slippery slope is here and what kind of government invasion you think this is.

'Vaccine Passports' aren't really a new thing. As noted above, most people are required to show proof of vaccination at some point or another in their lifetime. How often do we get TB tested? This goes all the way back to the late 1800s when people often had to show their smallpox scar to get access to trains or social gatherings. The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis was created by the WHO in 1933. To go to college you have to have an official document stating you've been vaccinated against MenB. 

I feel that liberty isn't just freedom from government regulations, but also freedom to live our lives without fear of preventable deadly infectious diseases (and their consequences) - and the government has been regulating these things for a long time in order to promote health for the entire population. If the government doesn't want something like this, I think businesses and schools absolutely should require some kind of documentation to protect themselves and their customers/students/whatever else. A digital passport makes the most sense for something like this.

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1 hour ago, roundabout said:

Where do you the draw line? 

There are ton's of infectious diseases that exist that you can possibly be exposed to at anytime. There are activities you participate in that are a risk to you. If you're talking about individual freedom, every person has the right to go out and do things whether they have a vaccine or not. If your concern is YOUR health, and you are concerned about it you have 2 options. 1. get vaccinated or 2. stay at home. But your health concerns shouldn't be the basis of erosion of individual liberty and health privacy. 

If you are a PA, you HAD to have a whole set of vac's to get into and through PA school.  Were you surrendering your "individual liberty" by having to get your Hep B vac???  Give me a break.  Jump off the righteous personal liberty box please.  As clinician you should know better.  Vacs are safe and incredibly effective.  In Texas you can NOT go to college without a meningitis vac...is that surrendering personal liberty?  Hell no, it's protecting your 18 year old and his/her classmates.  Gawd.

Edited by Cideous
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6 minutes ago, Cideous said:

If you are a PA, you HAD to have a whole set of vac's to get into and through PA school.  Were you surrendering your "individual liberty" by having to get your Hep B vac???  Give me a break.  Jump off the righteous personal liberty box please.  As clinician you should know better.  Vacs are safe and incredibly effective.  In Texas you can NOT go to college without a meningitis vac...is that surrendering personal liberty?  Hell no, it's protecting your 18 year old and his/her classmates.  Gawd.

indeed. One can say no to getting vaccinated as long as they are willing to give up certain rights, like flying on an airplane, going to the movies or a sporting event, etc. Party on in your backyard all you vaccine refusers, I won't stop you.

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1 hour ago, ANESMCR said:

You could literally take this sentence and go in every direction possible. I suppose we ask you the same question, with lack of health concern for millions on the basis of your individual liberty and “health privacy”. Where is the line drawn?

the line is drawn when people are actively spreading disease with intent to harm. Not a regular citizen who "might" be carrying one of hundreds of viruses being asked to show his passport to go to the store. 

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1 hour ago, Cideous said:

If you are a PA, you HAD to have a whole set of vac's to get into and through PA school.  Were you surrendering your "individual liberty" by having to get your Hep B vac???  Give me a break.  Jump off the righteous personal liberty box please.  As clinician you should know better.  Vacs are safe and incredibly effective.  In Texas you can NOT go to college without a meningitis vac...is that surrendering personal liberty?  Hell no, it's protecting your 18 year old and his/her classmates.  Gawd.

Proof of vaccination is acceptable in certain situations. I.e. going to school and being in close contact with the same kids over and over for many years. But I'm not gonna advocate for vaccine passports for people to live their normal lives that will undoubtedly get turned into some other form of invasion of your personal privacy over time. Especially for a virus that is being well contained and has a mortality rate of 1.8% in our country. Liberty and freedom of choice are important, it has nothing to do with being self righteous. I'm a huge advocate for vaccines. I think everyone should get them. I'm also a huge advocate for liberty and personal privacy.

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1 hour ago, Cideous said:

If you are a PA, you HAD to have a whole set of vac's to get into and through PA school.  Were you surrendering your "individual liberty" by having to get your Hep B vac???  Give me a break.  Jump off the righteous personal liberty box please.  As clinician you should know better.  Vacs are safe and incredibly effective.  In Texas you can NOT go to college without a meningitis vac...is that surrendering personal liberty?  Hell no, it's protecting your 18 year old and his/her classmates.  Gawd.

Attending PA School/ college was a voluntary decision, employment choices are voluntary. The 1st,4th,14th Amendments come to mind. I think Benjamin Franklin stated those who give up their rights for safety deserve neither or words to that effect.

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2 hours ago, CAdamsPAC said:

Attending PA School/ college was a voluntary decision, employment choices are voluntary. The 1st,4th,14th Amendments come to mind. I think Benjamin Franklin stated those who give up their rights for safety deserve neither or words to that effect.

So is travel, going to the movie theater, eating out in restaurants...the list goes on.  What involuntary thing are you being required to do which would necessitate receiving a vaccine?

Edit: The context of that quote is actually pretty interesting.  Here's a breakdown by a guy from the Brookings Institute. Essentially it is referring to a dispute between a family governing American land from afar and attempts to tax that land for defense.  Franklin was pro government taxation in the interests of the common good.

As usual we've screwed up the meaning.

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century

 

Edited by MediMike
Fun facts!
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1 hour ago, roundabout said:

If your concern is YOUR health, and you are concerned about it you have 2 options. 1. get vaccinated or 2. stay at home. But your health concerns shouldn't be the basis of erosion of individual liberty and health privacy. 

This isn't just about our individual health. We have a duty to protect our patients. Store owners have quite a bit of motivation to keep covid out of their stores, as do airlines, busses, uber drivers, entire countries, etc. 

Calling this the "erosion of individual liberty and health privacy" is a bit hyperbolic. Is requiring me to wear a seatbelt eroding my individual liberty? Or forcing me to prove I'm sober if I get pulled over? I didn't feel that my health privacy was taken away when I had to submit all of my previous vaccination records. I already have to show a "badge" with a negative covid test on it before I can enter any buildings on campus - I don't feel that is taking away any of my health privacy either. 

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7 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

get it delivered.

I have shopped all through the pandemic without showing a passport or asking to see anyone else's without a problem.

There's a major problem in this country. People no longer want to let other lives their lives. Everyone has to intrude into everything. It's similar to the "peanut free" schools. One kid has an allergy and now 800 kids can't have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch. It sucks to have a peanut allergy. I feel bad for you. But it's not my problem.

If everyone who feels like they need a shot gets a shot, why does anything more need to be done?

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fully support it

 

your ability to make a stupid bad decision does not/ should not  my right not not get COVID and infect my children

 

I am tired of people who think personal liberty trumps public health.  Look folks there is speed limits, vaccines required for schools, taxes for road improvement and the list goes on an on.  Your a citizen of this country and the rights of all do in fact count "more" then the right of one individual.

 

 

I also think we have to be VERY careful with rights versus privilege.  There is a difference

 

You have no right to shop in a private grocery store -that is a privilege (which can easily be revoked by a no-trespass order).  Rights should be protected, but we are not talking about right here, we are talking about a few small vocal minority groups who seem to think their ability to decline a vaccine (placing others at risk) is more important the the true right to life by other citizens.

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20 minutes ago, ventana said:

Your a citizen of this country and the rights of all do in fact count "more" then the right of one individual.

I take personal responsibility for the safety of my family. We will mask, vaccinate, distance and sanitize as needed to keep us safe.

I neither need nor am I counting on you to do anything to help me say safe. I don't care what "the village" does. 

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