surgblumm Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 July 19, 2012[h=3]Students in MSU Physician Assistant program struggling with transfer options[/h][h=4]Bluefield State College accepting transfer credits[/h]By Sarah PlummerFor the Daily Telegraph Beckley — While many schools, like the University of Charleston and Bluefield State College, have stepped up to say they are accepting transfer credits from students hoping to leave Mountain State University, some students are finding they are backed into a corner. Around 90 students in Mountain State University’s Physician Assistant program are finding many, if not all, PA programs will not accept transfer credits. Debra Campbell, director of the Physician Assistant Graduate Program, told students on Tuesday that the program is asking for a teach-out from the Higher Learning Commission, but students should seek enrollment elsewhere. She went on to tell students in an e-mail “other PA schools are not allowed to transfer-in students. There are a couple that accept a limited number of credit hours depending on if our curriculum matches theirs, i.e Shenandoah (Valley) MIGHT accept 12 transfer credit hours and only if they decide our curriculum matches theirs and IF they accept you as a student.” She informed the students that Wichita State, Pacific University of Oregon, Gannon University and several others have no transfer options. Some of the MSU PA students had already explored options available in West Virginia on their own and had discovered their credits would not transfer. Doug Shrewsbury, a second year PA student, pointed out most universities, in addition to not accepting credits, will ask students to sit out one year before starting back to school because it is too late to apply for admission for the fall. “At this point we are kind of stuck. Not only have we lost one or two years of school, we are going to have to sit out a year before we start somewhere else,” he said. A group of PA students at MSU started June 9, the day the Higher Learning Commission announced they would withdrawal MSU’s accreditation, to take a proactive stance to contact other schools and gather information. Shrewsbury said Marshall University offered to accept six elective credit hours but no credits within their degree program. West Virginia University simply told a student who inquired that no credits would transfer. “WVU was not very empathetic at all. They may have been receiving a lot of phone calls but they did not treat us very well,” he added. He went on to say he is hoping to finish his last 12 credit hours in one semester if a teach-out is granted. And while that is not a sure thing, it is a better option than losing more time and money, he said. Shrewsbury added that he and other students were frustrated about not hearing from their program director after the commission’s announcement, and for a week students were left hanging. Today he feels more confident about the possibility of a teach-out, but he remains concerned for students who have more than one semester of instruction ahead of them. Charles McKinney, also a second year PA student, was additionally frustrated about business going on as usual on campus for PA students. “We have eight tests in the next two weeks. How do they expect us to focus on earning these course credits that are not going to be worth anything anyway? Of course, technically they are worth something because if we are going to apply to another school and start over, we don’t want our transcripts to show low grades,” he said. “We are looking for schools anywhere that will take us. We have students from Michigan, California, Maryland and Ethiopia. I feel bad for everybody, but especially people who have traveled so far. This is a mess,” McKinney said. McKinney added that he believes most PA students will leave MSU with between $30,000 and $70,000 in student debt. McKinney also expressed dissatisfaction with a lack of information and transparency from the program and school’s leadership. He said, at times, “it was like they were trying to keep us at bay.” On Monday, Campbell sent a message to all PA students asking them not to contact other PA schools directly to inquire about admittance. “It is not in your best interest to contact other PA schools by phone or e-mail. This should be accomplished by MSU PA faculty or MSU administration, not PA students or parents of PA students. Even though I sent a similar e-mail last week, apparently it was disregarded by some students and has now caused a problem,” read the message. She told them the PAEA (Physician Assistant Education Association) had received complaints from other schools about students calling to ask questions. Interim university president Dr. Richard Sours said the university was aware of the PA graduate students’ special concerns. “They have legitimate concerns and frustrations and we are not sitting idly by. We are working to effect transfer opportunities for these students,” Sours said. He added that he could not release specifics on the transfer opportunities because they are still in an exploratory stage, but they are expected to be finalized soon because they will become part of a teach-out plan sent by July 23 to the Higher Learning Commission for approval. He said he understands PA program credits are more difficult to transfer because they are on a graduate level and because schools structure the degree in many different ways. “The students are taking the initiative and trying to solve their own problem instead of waiting for us, which is commendable,” he added. Dr. Jerry Ice, chairman of MSU’s Board of Trustees, said during the school’s meeting with West Virginia Higher Education Policy Commission Chancellor Paul Hill, Hill indicated the commission would reach out to other colleges and ask them to do everything in their power to help MSU students transfer. Students have created a change.org petition asking the Higher Learning Commission to allow the PA Class of 2013 a teach-out. That petition can be viewed and signed online at change.org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 This is just awful. I really feel for these students. It's interesting but not surprising that Pacific U (my alma mater) doesn't accept transfers. I also teach part-time at the Gannon program--these 2 programs are wildly different, and ARC-PA standards allow enough flexibility from program to program that I can see it would be a logistical nightmare to match these students elsewhere. From what I have read I am not at all impressed with the MSU admin's response, although the PA program is small potatoes in the whole scheme of that awful mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surgblumm Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Tthanks for the intelligent and factual comment. you are closer to the situation and therefore have a better grasp. Students will need to look closely at this scenario as I am sure that these students would have had enjoyed a "heads up to possibilities." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2012 unbelievable they loose their accreditation, then tell students to NOT CONTACT other schools - are they going to refund all the tuition to them? do they have any realization they have just totally screwed a whole bunch of future PA's I would be organizing the students to file a class action law suit for breach on contract and holding them to the implied contract of becoming a PA - - - then the BALLS of the admin to yell at the students for looking at other options.... sometimes the courts need to step in.... I for one will donate to the cause if the students set up a fund to take this horrible program to court over a breach on contract as this can not stand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Its a terrible situation for all involved. While I think that MSU should refund those students tuition, I DO NOT think that any PA program should accept or be required or expected to accept transfer credits from a defunct program (or any other progam defunct or not). Tooooooooo much variation between classes, content, and evaluation standards for any transfer to be meaningful, consistent or of value to the PATIENTS who will be recieving care from these folks. Thing is... When a program hands you a diploma and signs your transcripts, they are basically "certifying" that YOU have been exposed to, learned and evaluated on specific topics and have met their minimum acceptable standards. There is really no way to do this unless you require a student to sit in every one of your classes and complete all of your requirements and negotiate all of your milestones/hurdles. I precept 12-20 students a year from the local PA program. EVERY student that I precept during these 4 week rotations is exposed to the exact same curriculum, they use the exact same text and all take the exact same 7 quizzes, and are ALL required to demonstrate an understanding of the exact same concepts, and proficiency in the exact same physical exams and mental status exams. I've had students from other programs show up, and "hang out" with me and my scheduled students and "sort of participate" intermittently for 5-6 days at a time. Then have gotten evaluation forms in the mail from their programs listing me as one of their preceptors and asking for me to submit a "official grade" for their Behavioral Medicine rotation. They don't usually like what I do send and the conversation I have with their program...:heheh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 20, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2012 Having a defunct university is different from a defunct program. This all started when a nurse anesthetist student sued for wrongful termination (and won) and the COA closed the anesthesia program, then the nursing school lost its accreditation and students sued, so the higher learning took interest and decided the whole university was crap. The Pa program still met the standards of the ARCPA, so I think that should have some option to transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Of course YOU do because YOU are a student... and don't have the perspective. Re-Read post # 2 to get some. There is such a difference in programs that there is NOTHING to transfer. A perfect example of this would be: 1.) Some programs are on the quarter system others are on a semester system. 2.) Some programs have a distinct "didactic" year and then a distinct "clinical" yr. Other programs have a hybrid of this and combine the two. 3.) Some programs don't expose their students to physical exams until the third quarter, while others require their students to do complete H&Ps within the first 2 weeks in the program. 4.) Lots of programs merely list the classes taken on the students record/transcript as: Semester I Primary Care Medicine I- 18 credit hrs Clinical Medicine I - 6 credit hrs Semester II Primary Care Medicine II- 20 credit hrs Clinical Medicine II - 6 credit hrs Semester III Primary Care Medicine III- 18 credit hrs Clinical Medicine III - 6 credit hrs Semester IV Primary Care Medicine IV- 6 credit hrs Clinical Medicine IV - 22 credit hrs Semester V Primary Care Medicine V- 8 credit hrs Clinical Medicine V - 22 credit hrs Semester VI Primary Care Medicine VI- 8 credit hrs Clinical Medicine VI - 18 credit hrs Whereas another program lists: Quarter I Primary Care Medicine I- 12 credit hrs Clinical Medicine I - 10 credit hrs Quarter II Primary Care Medicine II- 15 credit hrs Clinical Medicine II - 10 credit hrs Quarter III Primary Care Medicine III- 14 credit hrs Clinical Medicine III - 6 credit hrs Quarter IV Primary Care Medicine IV- 16 credit hrs Clinical Medicine IV - 12 credit hrs Quarter V Primary Care Medicine V- 18 credit hrs Clinical Medicine V - 14 credit hrs Quarter VI Primary Care Medicine VI- 8 credit hrs Clinical Medicine VI - 21 credit hrs Sooo... From program to program, WHAT does 18hrs of Primary Care Medicine I- or Clinical Medicine VI entail and or really mean. How does a program evaluate this and accept it as transfer if they don't know what it entails...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmood Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I agree. As terrible as it is for these students (it makes me sick just thinking of being in that situation), I really don't see how they could place within other programs with any degree of success. Even if they finagled it somehow, the first time one of those unlucky students failed the PANCE the proverbial **** would hit the fan all over again and the blame game would start. Or say a handful of schools agreed to accept credits, but on different terms considering everything Contrarian described with the different schedules. One school couldn't absorb 90 students - that's too big a burden. But then how to decide who gets to go where, when one school accepts five students and places them at exactly the same point in the program as they were originally, and another makes them retake a full semester of coursework or more? Are all students guaranteed a spot someplace? Only the best? No. It just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen0508 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This really stinks for the students. I wonder if they will atleast get their tuition back since their classes/credits will not transfer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 21, 2012 Of course YOU do because YOU are a student... and don't have the perspective. Re-Read post # 2 to get some. There is such a difference in programs that there is NOTHING to transfer. A perfect example of this would be: 1.) Some programs are on the quarter system others are on a semester system. 2.) Some programs have a distinct "didactic" year and then a distinct "clinical" yr. Other programs have a hybrid of this and combine the two. 3.) Some programs don't expose their students to physical exams until the third quarter, while others require their students to do complete H&Ps within the first 2 weeks in the program. 4.) Lots of programs merely list the classes taken on the students record/transcript as: Whereas another program lists: Sooo... From program to program, WHAT does 18hrs of Primary Care Medicine I- or Clinical Medicine VI entail and or really mean. How does a program evaluate this and accept it as transfer if they don't know what it entails...???? I see it this way because I'm reasonable and don't think lives should be destroyed because of problems with our educational system, through no fault of their own. "some option" does not mean "every option." I'm not saying all doors should swing wide open. Surely there is some school similar enough to take them, whether they have to move cross country or not. Secondly, if we are THAT non-uniform, changes should be made to ensure a quality product and transfers like med school. Though I think we are uniform enough that a student in their LAST semester should be able to transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I would support some kind of good faith effort by established programs to adopt these students as best they could, in some way enabling most of them to finish their education. There has to be some middle ground. I think ARC-PA must have some vested interest in helping these students who through no fault of their own are smack in the middle of this debacle. We faced a similar situation at Medical College of GA 3 yr ago when there was a very real threat to defund many programs, some of which were the only ones remaining in the state system (CRNA, US, RT were all on the chopping block). We were fortunate to escape those draconian cuts and those programs were saved, but the tension was pinpoint. The difference was of course that there was no question of accreditation, and the university expressed genuine concern for those students and faculty who might be displaced. Sadly we have not seen the same kind of response from MSU. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I would support some kind of good faith effort by established programs to adopt these students as best they could, in some way enabling most of them to finish their education. There has to be some middle ground. I think ARC-PA must have some vested interest in helping these students who through no fault of their own are smack in the middle of this debacle. Of course YOU would because YOU are a student... and don't have the perspective. Oh wait ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hehehehe Heme :) For those who are out of the loop, it's a good-natured joke. I am now a foolish MS2. ;) Of course YOU would because YOU are a student... and don't have the perspective. Oh wait ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy1023 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Please sign this petition for our class. Currently the only option we have is a teach out program and if that falls through we all may have to reapply to PA programs. http://www.change.org/petitions/msu-pa-class-of-2013?utm_campaign=friend_inviter_action_box&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=24123263 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen0508 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Please sign this petition for our class. Currently the only option we have is a teach out program and if that falls through we all may have to reapply to PA programs. http://www.change.org/petitions/msu-pa-class-of-2013?utm_campaign=friend_inviter_action_box&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=24123263 What is a teach out program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I would support some kind of good faith effort by established programs to adopt these students as best they could, in some way enabling most of them to finish their education. There has to be some middle ground. I think ARC-PA must have some vested interest in helping these students who through no fault of their own are smack in the middle of this debacle... [brevity edit]...:( Yes... and as I see it, the only way that "good faith effort" would really work would be for established programs to simply designate/reserve a few seats each for these students in the next matriculating class with some sort of expedited route of entry. Maybe something like a abbreviated application, interview process with semi-guaranteed entry. Thing is, these students would need to complete the whole program at their new school for the school to "certify" that they have been fully trained. Kinda like YOU have to basically complete all the DO curriculum/clinicals at yours regardless of the fact that you learned clinical medicine/internal medicine/family practice many yrs ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 What is a teach out program? The current class gets to continue until the end, and gradute but is the last class and the program closes after it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 My statement/question is a bit much but I have to say it. I have alot of respect for the hard working students of MSU and hope their petition efforts go well. I know little about MSU and its capabilities other than what I have read online in the last 15 minutes. In my opinion a PA, medical, NP school is of the utmost important for our society. If you go to a poor law school and/or become a poor lawyer you will blow a few cases and find yourself in a reflective position. There arent many PA positions where you are not with the ability to destroy someones life .... perhaps some find careers doing more "assistant" work, but for the most part even those who have low autonomy have great power to influence health and wellbeing. In my opinion .... and I will admit I am not on any education board/policy group .... it seems like every school thats wants a PA school , and has no infrastructure to support a good PA school, can get one and make money off of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Interesting point C ;) I don't mind the rotations as much as I did repeating all of H&P which I have taught for several yr and so much redundancy in M1...but that is beside the point of this thread. What I didn't say but you kinda read my mind is that if enough programs volunteered to adopt a few students they could complete their training. I agree it would be a challenge to find enough programs that were similar enough to do so. [quote name= Kinda like YOU have to basically complete all the DO curriculum/clinicals at yours regardless of the fact that you learned clinical medicine/internal medicine/family practice many yrs ago....[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 22, 2012 Please sign this petition for our class. Currently the only option we have is a teach out program and if that falls through we all may have to reapply to PA programs. http://www.change.org/petitions/msu-pa-class-of-2013?utm_campaign=friend_inviter_action_box&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition&utm_term=24123263 signed come on people sign and show the strength in numbers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Petition signed The folks here that don't know me think I am against these students getting some kind of break. Thats just not the case. Personally. I would like them ALL to recieve a tuition, text and fees refund, all students who moved greater than 50 miles to attend that program compensated for the costs of their relocation and then I'd like to see each of them moved to the front of the line for interviews in the upcoming interview cycle (Jan-Mar 2013) for the new classes starting 2013 between Jun-Sep. Guaranteeing that now would allow these students time to plan for interviews and relocation to their new programs and ease some of their stress. What I didn't say but you kinda read my mind is that if enough programs volunteered to adopt a few students they could complete their training. I agree it would be a challenge to find enough programs that were similar enough to do so. Yes... Which is what I figured you were suggesting from your very first post in this thread... NOT a "transfer" of credits, but a expedited/guaranteed entry into a program (s) so that they can complete their training. IMO...Any program accepting "transfer" credits would be "precedent setting" and open a HUGE can of worms. Imagine a few programs being sued because they accepted MSU PA program "transfer credits" that gave former MSU students advanced standing, but after that situation was resolved, wouldn't accept any "transfer credits" from other non MSU partially trained (for whatever reason) students. Then programs being mandated to accept "transfer credits," so at any given time there would be dozens of PA students discharged from programs (for whatever reason) enrolling into other PA programs with advanced standing. Doesn't sould like a good thing for our profession to ME... Just a few thoughts. Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 When Charles drew folded, schools around the country each picked up a couple students each and let them go there. They had to do it the way contrarian said they should and start over, but they had a home. That was decent of every school that did that. The one that I know for sure took students was MEDEX. Another reason they rock. There were a few programs that did that and Ruth Ballwig called Directors of programs to organized that initial effort ( and I agree MEDEX rocks). Dr. Byous (who actually was responsible for the Drew teach out) contacted other programs to help. Unfortunately not all the Drew students found another home. The impact of that closure is still being felt in California and it contributed to a decrease in needed providers. Still, Drew did make an attempt to teach out the remaining students enrolled. The others that were accepted prior to the closure (as you mentioned) had to reapply to other programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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