Anthony T Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm currently working toward my Bachelor's in Biology, and from there I will decide if I want to go to Pharmacy school or PA school. I've been debating about it for a long time. However, if I go the PA route, I'd like to do something in Anesthesiology but I'm not sure if they have PAs that specialize in that field. One of my parents' friends is a RN, and she told me to look into a nursing programs and from there I can try to become a Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) after I graduate. Is there anything similar to that career in the world of a Physician Assistant, or is that specifically a nursing thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaston Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Check into the 2.5 year Masters degree for Anesthesiology Assistant at Emory University. You will be a PA, but you will be trained specifically in Anesthesiology. From what I have been told by a bunch of Anesthesiologists, they like the AA's much more than the CRNA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 Problem is that they are only in 18 states, and they may be more restricted than crnas... Which could also contribute to why they are appreciated more by anesthesiologists. More restricted than even other PAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm currently working toward my Bachelor's in Biology, and from there I will decide if I want to go to Pharmacy school or PA school. I've been debating about it for a long time. However, if I go the PA route, I'd like to do something in Anesthesiology but I'm not sure if they have PAs that specialize in that field. One of my parents' friends is a RN, and she told me to look into a nursing programs and from there I can try to become a Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) after I graduate. Is there anything similar to that career in the world of a Physician Assistant, or is that specifically a nursing thing? Are you talking operative anesthesia? If so, PAs do not work in that capacity, as noted, AA's (Case Western also has a program) and CRNA's fill that niche. Outpatient anesthesia, IE; pain management however, uses PAs extensively. Also, keep in mind that PA does not always mean Physician Assistant. There is another graduate level (MS level) provider who uses the acronym PA........That is Pathology Assistants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 Some used to be, the. laws were passed to change that. I think some still might be "technically" considered PAs in certain states. There are still a few PAs acting as AAs with no formal AA training in the VA hospital system I believe. But that was not my point. The point is that most of us think of PAs as overly restricted, and AAs are even more restricted than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 Check into the 2.5 year Masters degree for Anesthesiology Assistant at Emory University. You will be a PA, but you will be trained specifically in Anesthesiology. From what I have been told by a bunch of Anesthesiologists, they like the AA's much more than the CRNA's. AA's are not pa's. There is a pa to aa bridge out there but they are separate careers with separate training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaston Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 AA's are not pa's. There is a pa to aa bridge out there but they are separate careers with separate training. All I can tell you is that the AA students and Faculty at Emory refer to each other as PA's as well as AA's. That's where I got that from. Their program is a Master of Medical Science, with a focus on Anesthesiology. Mine is a Master of Medical Science. You will have to take it up with them about what they call themselves, but that is why I referred to them as PA's. I was corrected several times by various individuals in their program. So unfortunately, that is based on personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaston Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Which could also contribute to why they are appreciated more by anesthesiologists. Nope. According to several Anesthesiologists I have talked to they are preferred for superior training. Perhaps they had a hidden agenda, but I take them at their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 from the AAAA site: 3. What are the differences between AAs and Physician Assistants? Although AAs and physician assistants (PAs) both function as physician extenders, they do not perform the same functions. Each has its own separate educational curriculum, standards for accreditation, and its own agency for certification. PAs receive a generalist education and may practice in many different fields under the supervision of a physician who is qualified and credentialed in that field. An AA may not practice outside of the field of anesthesia or apart from the supervision of an anesthesiologist. An AA may not practice as a physician assistant unless the AA has also completed a PA training program and passed the National Commission for the Certification of Physician Assistants (NCCPA) exam. Likewise a PA may not identify him- or herself as an AA unless he or she has completed an accredited AA program and passed the National Commission for the Certification of Anesthesiologist Assistants (NCCAA) exam. If also certified as an AA, such a dual-credentialed PA would be required to practice as an anesthetist only as an extender for an anesthesiologist and could not provide anesthesia care at the direction of a physician of any other specialty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 .....why would you want to just sit around and do cross word puzzles and get paid 6 figures as a new grad anyway? In all seriousness, if you're 110% positive you want to be a midlevel anesthesia provider, go with the RN-CRNA route. From my understanding, a CRNA can work completely independent from a doc, and a AA is a dependent practitioner, like a PA. Unless Emory has an AA/PA combined degree, they aren't PAs or PA students, and would be misrepresenting themselves, a legal no no once they graduate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 there is a pa to aa bridge but no aa to pa bridge. advantage of aa in the states that use them is that anesthesiology groups run by md's prefer them and do not consider them a threat. there is a huge backlash coming against np's and crna's and the whole dnp movement and being an aa would keep you out of the line of fire. several states are in the process of developing "who can call themselves a doctor" laws as well as various laws limiting the scope of practice of nursing based midlevels. in texas for example fnp's are now restricted from working in inpatient settings and acnp's are not allowed to work in outpt settings. this kind of thing will spread as docs feel more threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaston Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You are welcome to take it up with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2012 there are some dual pa/aa and np/crna folks out there who work OR, pain clinic, and ICU. I know a few of both. AA prereqs were originally designed to allow the AA to seamlessly apply to med school at a later date. they require mcats and med school prereqs. it certainly isn't an easy path but it does allow non-nurses(folks like RT's) to transition to OR anesthesia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradopa Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 there is a pa to aa bridge but no aa to pa bridge.advantage of aa in the states that use them is that anesthesiology groups run by md's prefer them and do not consider them a threat. there is a huge backlash coming against np's and crna's and the whole dnp movement and being an aa would keep you out of the line of fire. several states are in the process of developing "who can call themselves a doctor" laws as well as various laws limiting the scope of practice of nursing based midlevels. in texas for example fnp's are now restricted from working in inpatient settings and acnp's are not allowed to work in outpt settings. this kind of thing will spread as docs feel more threatened. AAs in Georgia are referred to as PA-Anesthesia. The Georgia law was written in the early 1970's when the profession was experimenting with specialty PAs. There were OB-GYN PAs, Child Health PAs, Orthopedic PAs and Surgical PAs among others. These were considered type B or limited scope PAs. What we now consider a PA was called a type A or unlimited PA. There were also type C or technical PAs (where OPAs would fit). The surgical PA programs converted into general PA programs with a special focus. The Child health associate program at CU was not able to sit for NCCPA boards until the curriculum was changed in the 1980's. There is still a provision in Colorado law allowing them to work with patients under 18. In Georgia AAs were placed in the PA practice act as Type B PAs ie. PA-Anesthesia. "Regular" PAs were referred to as PA-primary care. This is now changed but AAs remain part of the PA practice act. One of many things that needs to be changed in the Georgia practice ACT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradopa Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Problem is that they are only in 18 states, and they may be more restricted than crnas... Which could also contribute to why they are appreciated more by anesthesiologists. There are 18 states with practice acts. Another 6-7 allows AAs to practice under delegated practice. As to why they are preferred, they don't claim equivalence with anesthesiologists or directly compete. An AA must work in an ACT practice under an anesthesiologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surgblumm Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I am going to suggest that you contact General Shepard Stone from the Dept of anesthesia at Yale. Shep was one of the PA pioneers in anesthesia. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2012 I know his story. he did the yale surgical residency yrs ago and specialized in anesthesia. that option no longer exists and he is one of less than 10 pa's in the country doing operative anesthesia at this point. when those guys retire the only pathways will be AA or crna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradopa Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I know his story. he did the yale surgical residency yrs ago and specialized in anesthesia. that option no longer exists and he is one of less than 10 pa's in the country doing operative anesthesia at this point. when those guys retire the only pathways will be AA or crna. I'll disagree. I would estimate there are around 50 PAs doing operative anesthesia. They generally exist in places that don't bill for anesthesia such as HMOs. In the great majority of states there is nothing that prevents a PA from doing anesthesia. Its mostly a billing issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2012 I'll disagree. I would estimate there are around 50 PAs doing operative anesthesia. They generally exist in places that don't bill for anesthesia such as HMOs. In the great majority of states there is nothing that prevents a PA from doing anesthesia. Its mostly a billing issue. my understanding is that the joint commission made it too difficult for many of those folks to practice without AA or crna credentials but I don't know that as fact. Mr. stone would know the answer. 500 seems really high considering there are only 8000 or so pa's in emergency medicine and I am sure they outnumber these folks more than 16:1. are you counting dual pa/aa folks in those #s and pa's who work for anesthesia depts but not in the o.r.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradopa Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 my understanding is that the joint commission made it too difficult for many of those folks to practice without AA or crna credentials but I don't know that as fact. Mr. stone would know the answer. 500 seems really high considering there are only 8000 or so pa's in emergency medicine and I am sure they outnumber these folks more than 16:1. are you counting dual pa/aa folks in those #s and pa's who work for anesthesia depts but not in the o.r.?? 50 not 500. That includes the 10 or so dual AA/PA. JC really doesn't have anything to do with it. They are within the laws of their states and can demonstrate competency. I base that on the contact I've had over the past 5 years with a number of people. They are mostly in the southwest and a few in the northeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 18, 2012 sorry, I read 500, not 50. reading comprehension goes down during the day folowing night shifts...:) so if you take out the 10 dual pa/aa (as they are also aa's) the # would be 40. I guess I could believe that. I'm guessing most are older than 50. I think my statement still rings true that when these folks retire no new pa's will take their places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surgblumm Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I'm going to call Shep and ask him about the numbers and the future for PAs in anesthesia. I will post his responses on the forum. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I understand the pressure for young folks out there just starting college and trying to find a career that will make it worth the investment. I would really encourage you to really spend a lot of time shadowing, researching, and looking into all the different options you have in health care. You are doing a good thing by coming to this forum. You say that you want to be a PA but want to do anesthesiology but don't know if PA's can do anesthesiology. Try to unhinge yourself from the PA profession for the moment (it is still really early) in order to have a clearer picture of things while trying to figure out what you really want to do. For instance, if you know you want to do anesthesiology, becoming a nurse anesthsithphsitisisist (I can barely even say the word) is a good way to go. Then again, if you REALLY want to do anesthesiology then don't rule out going to med school. But you are doing good by coming here, there is a lot of information to be had. Best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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