charmstarz Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 So I was talking to a NP the other day at the hospital and she was trying to tell me that her role as a DNP is the equivalent of an MD and that soon PA's would need to be supervised by MD, DO and DNP's. Is there an validity to this? There is already a great divide between most NP's and PA's, but I think with this mentality the chasm could widen. Could someone clarify what is going on with the new movement towards DNP and what that means for PA's and the scope of their practice? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 NPs don't supervise PAs, they are BON not BOM Some NPs are on a power trip She shouls be saying that her DNP makes her the equivalent of a DNP and stop drawing false compairsons MDs are MDs NPs are NPs PAs are PAs #1 and #3 Practice medicine #2 practices advanced nursing We all do it well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjl1717 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't mind talking with the DNP.. I just don't want to have to bow down.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted July 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted July 10, 2012 Nurses have gone into hospital administration before, so PAs might well be "answerable" to a DNP in the same way an MD or DO might. However, if they want the right to supervise PA's as DNP's as if DNPs were physicians... I think the physicians are going to be just as much against that as we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Tell that NP that he/she is wrong. That does not make sense in any way. NPs do not practice medicine and they are not a physician. NPs have a doctorate degree in nursing which includes administration stuff, little to no science and it not even a terminal degree (PhD). Please go tell that NP how he/she is equivalent to a physician when they don’t practice medicine nor have any science classes even close to physicians or PAs. Go google a few NP programs that have DNPs and see what classes they take/clinical hours and then compare that to PA school. A lot of PAs have PhDs, DHSc, DBAs etc and that doesn’t mean they are a MD/DO. Absolutely, that NP has no clue that a PhD, DHSc, DBA, DNP, etc is not the same doctorate degree as a MD/DO has. Tell him/her to research more about those degrees and the laws of PAs/NPs. This type of ignorance is scary and needs to be rectified quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Nurses have gone into hospital administration before, so PAs might well be "answerable" to a DNP in the same way an MD or DO might. However, if they want the right to supervise PA's as DNP's as if DNPs were physicians... I think the physicians are going to be just as much against that as we are. It has nothing to do with what they want PAs are legally only allowed to be supervised by physicians They would need to implement new legislation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted July 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2012 .......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treejay Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 ^^^^^^^ thumbs up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2012 most excellent post. carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmstarz Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'm not a troll. That is rude. I'm a student taking my pre-reqs for a Masters PA program. I'm working at a hospital to get my hours for that program and that is what the NP said. I'm not versed on the heirarchy of things within the hospital system quite yet, so that is why I posted this question. I came here for the truth not to be ridiculed for asking questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2012 I believe he meant the np was the troll, not you....pa's will never report to np's. they are under the board of nursing, we are under the board of medicine. that's like her saying "someday all plumbers will have to report to electricians because electricity is hotter than water". it's nonsensical. not your fault. her ignorance. Their having a dnp meeans nothing to us except in the eyes of an H.R. person who knows nothing about healthcare and assumes someone with a doctorate must be better than some "assistant" without one. Not the main reason I am working on a doctorate but it's one of them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted July 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2012 I for one would NEVER take a job that had a NP over me in a clincal role other then based on experience - never on degree or title..... if someone is more senior as a "midlevel" (yeah I hate the term) then so be it - but only a doc (MD/DO) will ever be my supervisor - would quit on the spot if it came to it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted July 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2012 sure, in a group of advanced practice clinicians(better term than midlevel) a pa or an np can be senior and write the schedule, etc but the pa doesn't "work for" the np. when I was chief pa in my er I had 11 other folks who I oversaw(8 pa's and 3 np's) but I wasn't their boss. I hired and participated in discipline, wrote the schedule, etc but I didn't read all their charts and critique their care regularly....unless they messed up...then I was part of a panel with 3 docs who reviewed cases....I was their "lead" but not their supervisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Last place I worked, the "Acting Medical director" was a NP... She was in that position for the entire time I was there (2009-present). She was responsible for hiring/firing and diciplining the "Medical Staff" which included 5-MDs/DOs, 7-ARNPs and a single PA (ME). My "SP" was always a Physician (MD), but my administrative "supervisor" was a BSN who was the Director of Clinical Services. Twas NO big deal, as they never tried to "direct" my patient care without it becoming intellectually painful and obvious that they had the "wrong-guy" to try that Shyt on... :heheh: I've since left that place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You just need to tell her, "hon, I'm a Physician Assistant ... and you're not a Physician." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgdog Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 lol ^^^^^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsfelder0417 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ahh, nothing like a cup of controversy in the morning to start my day. Ha that NP has reached Max Troll Level in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoClinic4Me Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You just need to tell her, "hon, I'm a Physician Assistant ... and you're not a Physician." Yeah, "Hon" will go over like a lead balloon but I like it! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdtpac Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Contraian's point is well taken. Unfortunately, there are many institutions( hospitals mostly) where PA's are employees of the institution and often times are managed under the department of nursing. These are generally institutions which employs very few PAs. As far as a DNP " supervising" a PA, relax, it isn't ever going to happen unless state practice acts are change to allow it and I don't think the nurses would have a snowballs chance in hell of ever making it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Don't forget Contrarian is a PA-C, FNP so he could supervise himself. Oh wait, he already does that ;) (self-employed too).... Seriously though, this would NEVER be acceptable in my book. Fears like this, however far-fetched, motivated me to move on from supervisee to supervising physician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yeah, "Hon" will go over like a lead balloon but I like it! Pat Oh, but that's the point ;) ... condescension begets condescension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Contraian's point is well taken. Unfortunately, there are many institutions( hospitals mostly) where PA's are employees of the institution and often times are managed under the department of nursing. These are generally institutions which employs very few PAs... [brevity edit] ... Yep....!!!! Nursing has been around a LOOOOOOOOOOOOng time before the PA profession was born and evolved. Therefore, its NOT new, or unusual for nurses to be the natural choices to administratively lead "organizational service lines." Just about EVERY hospital in this nation has most of its various departments managed by nurses. Again... NOT new and NOT really a big deal AND makes sense because MOST of the care provided in those departments is rendered by nurses. We (medical providers) typically spend the least amount of time with the patients and only interact to assess and diagnose... write orders then leave. I don't see a problem with the current system where nurses are the managers in these departments, managing MOSTLY nurses and additional staff (Physicians, PAs, techs etc) , as long a they limit their "management" to "ADMINISTRATIVE" issues. I've rarely had any problems with nurse "directors" or "managers" attempting to "direct" or "supervise" my medical care beyond administrative tasks and issues. The few times that it has happened, they only made that mistake once before they met my "animal sign"... :heheh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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