Poll regarding COVID vaccine

[jdant]

It is the spring of 2021, a coronavirus vaccine becomes available to health care workers.  Should the vaccine be mandatory for health care workers or optional?  Should healthcare workers be able to decline that vaccine and continue to wear current PPE.  Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

Jared Dant PA-C

[MediMike]

While I am 110% fully in favor of a vaccine I am honestly concerned about the quality and possible false security a vaccine created that quickly may have. When you figure the average timeframe from research and development ranges from 5-10 years...15-18 months is concerning.

Of course anyone who wants to get it should be able to receive it but I'd like to see the option of wearing PPE alone still on the table for a bit.

You know. Until we see if the recipients start growing a third arm or have their toes fall off.

[TheFatMan]

3 hours ago, MediMike said:

While I am 110% fully in favor of a vaccine I am honestly concerned about the quality and possible false security a vaccine created that quickly may have. When you figure the average timeframe from research and development ranges from 5-10 years...15-18 months is concerning.

Of course anyone who wants to get it should be able to receive it but I'd like to see the option of wearing PPE alone still on the table for a bit.

You know. Until we see if the recipients start growing a third arm or have their toes fall off.

This. I understand that researchers around the world are putting everything they have into the development, but it such a short time frame. I'm concerned there is too much pressure being put on the developers.

[turnedintoamartian]

I don’t worry about the timeframe as long as the process is still followed. I worry about political pressure short changing the process. 
 

Depending on the trial results I won’t view this any differently than influenza vaccine in regards to employment policy.

Edited August 29, 2020 by turnedintoamartian

[surgblumm]

This is difficult to respond to based on the pressure placed upon the FDA and CDC, I have many reservations as to the safety and the honor of these institutions at this present time.

[kargiver]

Time spent developing a vaccine doesn't trouble me in the slightest.  Salk developed Polio vaccine in 24 months - long before the advent of modern molecular biology.  Jenner "developed" smallpox vaccine based on Cowpox cross-immunity based on observation alone.  With the financial incentives at play for development of a vaccine, so long as real trials are done to prove efficacy, 11-12 months is acceptable.  Data and public policy being put out by our "public health" institutions is what troubles me, akin to the concerns of Surgblumm.  

Further, data so far generated from immune responses to viral challenge using the same genotype virus being used to make the current vaccine is promising but is not accounting for mutation of the virus.  It is this data that will be important as the heterogeneity of the currently circulating virus, along wit selective pressure from a presumed vaccine, will cause rapid mutation of the viral backbone.  This doesn't bode well for any vaccine candidate.

Biopharma has been incentivized for decades to try to generate a vaccine against coronaviruses - it would be a monstrous cash-cow.  The fact that they haven't done it to date suggests to me it isn't going to work.  And even it it does the virus will mutate quickly around. it.  Ill keep the PPE as I'd rather not risk it. But would I take the shot?  If it works on what's tested and shows some protective capability - yep.  Sure would.

G

 

[MediMike]

20 hours ago, kargiver said:

Time spent developing a vaccine doesn't trouble me in the slightest.  Salk developed Polio vaccine in 24 months - long before the advent of modern molecular biology.  Jenner "developed" smallpox vaccine based on Cowpox cross-immunity based on observation alone.  With the financial incentives at play for development of a vaccine, so long as real trials are done to prove efficacy, 11-12 months is acceptable.  Data and public policy being put out by our "public health" institutions is what troubles me, akin to the concerns of Surgblumm. 

These two items are inherently connected.  If there is political pressure on institutions to push through a vaccine the safety profile may not be adequate, not the efficacy.  As you mentioned in the remainder of your post, there has been work done attempting to produce a vaccine against a variety of coronavirus strains for years, and they haven't managed it yet.  So if they are able to push one out just prior to the election I've got some significant reservations.

[kargiver]

You are absolutely correct - I  made my point about as clear as mud. There is no prerequisite time for vaccine development and a short time frame doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t a viable product. That’s my point. 
 

But my other point still stands - Upon which I believe we both agree. 

G

Edited August 31, 2020 by kargiver

[FiremedicMike]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions

^ This is why I'm reluctant to be first in line to take a vaccine that was rushed to the market..

 

[EMEDPA]

2 hours ago, FiremedicMike said:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions

^ This is why I'm reluctant to be first in line to take a vaccine that was rushed to the market..

 

I know a bit about Dengue. Knew this wouldn't work. Problem with Dengue is you need to induce immunity to all 4 subtypes at once. If you don't, any new Dengue exposure causes a massive antibody response. Having one subtype once makes you immune to that subtype, but exposure to another type can lead to Dengue shock syndrome or hemorrhagic variant. . The current recommendation is that if you have ever had Dengue you never go to an area that has it again. First time, miserable. second time, potentially fatal.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:56 AM, MediMike said:

While I am 110% fully in favor of a vaccine I am honestly concerned about the quality and possible false security a vaccine created that quickly may have. When you figure the average timeframe from research and development ranges from 5-10 years...15-18 months is concerning.

Of course anyone who wants to get it should be able to receive it but I'd like to see the option of wearing PPE alone still on the table for a bit.

You know. Until we see if the recipients start growing a third arm or have their toes fall off.

Agreed. Once it has passed all phases and shown similar safety and efficacy of other vaccines, then mandatory. Until then, non-mandatory, or you’ll end up in a similar situation like when the gov’t forced military members to get the anthrax vaccine under EUA before it was ready. Sued the government and they won.

[Lucy199]

I'll take the vaccine to my eyeballs if it means seeing pearl jam live again..

 

Just kidding, but seriously... Some great points made here. I think one thing that gets overlooked is the "how long does it take to build a house " scenario. If you have 4 people building a house it could take 6 months. If you have 200 people building a house, it could be done in 10 days. I don't think the speed in which the vaccine is being made is as concerning when you look at the unprecedented amount of brilliant scientists and researchers working on this at the same time. The "post mutation" efficacy is concerning for sure. But as many have said, if it shows a solid immune response with minimal side effects and appears safe, I would be on board.