Breakdown of Degree Offered vs Degree Held

[andersenpa]

I think only 3 states require an MS.

I agree with phyasst.

requiring an ms discourages a lot of excfellent applicants and only serves to make money for schools.

 

-standardized degree to the level that we are educated. There may be some (capital P) Professions that function at the level that we do, and make the money that we do, with an associate degree. PT, OT, audiology, etc are either masters or above

-some states are requiring it as you said; many more employers are as well. Who knows if insurers are to follow?

-it's only my opinion but I think there are more than enough qualified applicants for masters level PA programs.

 

We are a profession in evolution. We can't dig our heels in on some issues (degree), yet advocate advancement on others (name change).

[andersenpa]

I think only 3 states require an MS.

I agree with phyasst.

requiring an ms discourages a lot of excfellent applicants and only serves to make money for schools.

 

-standardized degree to the level that we are educated. There may be some (capital P) Professions that function at the level that we do, and make the money that we do, with an associate degree. PT, OT, audiology, etc are either masters or above

-some states are requiring it as you said; many more employers are as well. Who knows if insurers are to follow?

-it's only my opinion but I think there are more than enough qualified applicants for masters level PA programs.

 

We are a profession in evolution. We can't dig our heels in on some issues (degree), yet advocate advancement on others (name change).

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Aren't you one of the advocates of "the more HCE, the better"? It wouldn't make sense that you would be an advocate of that but not of more experience in academics...

 

With that said, I have 100% faith that PA's practicing with Associate degrees are fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with a Master's degree... but to re-iterate my point from above, PA's practicing with a Master's degree with no previous HCE is fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with prior HCE.

 

Yes, it costs more money.. at least that's what my bank statement tells me. Remember, money doesn't buy you happiness :)... but it'll sure buy you a nice car! As much competition as there is b/w PA's and NP's I think we have to bite the bullet and do it. I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Aren't you one of the advocates of "the more HCE, the better"? It wouldn't make sense that you would be an advocate of that but not of more experience in academics...

 

With that said, I have 100% faith that PA's practicing with Associate degrees are fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with a Master's degree... but to re-iterate my point from above, PA's practicing with a Master's degree with no previous HCE is fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with prior HCE.

 

Yes, it costs more money.. at least that's what my bank statement tells me. Remember, money doesn't buy you happiness :)... but it'll sure buy you a nice car! As much competition as there is b/w PA's and NP's I think we have to bite the bullet and do it. I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Aren't you one of the advocates of "the more HCE, the better"? It wouldn't make sense that you would be an advocate of that but not of more experience in academics...

 

With that said, I have 100% faith that PA's practicing with Associate degrees are fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with a Master's degree... but to re-iterate my point from above, PA's practicing with a Master's degree with no previous HCE is fully capable of practicing in the same fashion as someone with prior HCE.

 

Yes, it costs more money.. at least that's what my bank statement tells me. Remember, money doesn't buy you happiness :)... but it'll sure buy you a nice car! As much competition as there is b/w PA's and NP's I think we have to bite the bullet and do it. I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

[andersenpa]

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

 

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

[andersenpa]

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

 

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

[andersenpa]

A masters and associates have the same medical training. In fact, the associates may have more since they require more HCE. Masters just has more research. A dnp is only different from a msn in they have more admin classes and a couple hundred clinical hours ( still less clinical hours than any version of pa). You're statement is mired in ignorance.

 

Eta: I'm not against a masters mandate. I am against schools making a profit by tacking on a "better" degree. All tuition is out of control.

 

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

 

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

 

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

Is it true that maters programs require less HCE than associates?

I'm not sure you can make that comparison given the large number of masters offering programs and the slim number of associate programs. Looks like ~85% vs <5% on that graph.

 

Again, we need to look at what we "want" from PA education vs what the market is dictating now. Whether it's dollars for the programs or the concerns of students, the masters is in demand and it's not going away.

 

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

[physasst]

I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

[physasst]

I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

[physasst]

I know as an employer in the health field I would take a DNP over a PA with an Associates any day of the week. That is night and day.. 2 years of education compared to 6+ years. It's about competition now.

 

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

[Acebecker]

Admittedly I have limited experience with this, but I can say for certain that those who were granted associates/certificates or bachelor's or master's degrees from MEDEX were all required to have the same minimum number of HCE hours. To my knowledge there have been no exceptions made regarding this requirement for master's students, and I would protest very strongly any change to that requirement.

 

Now, the average number of hours that accepted applicants have IS lower for the master's students than for the AS/cert/bachelor's students, but we're talking 6000 hrs for the master's folks vs. 10000 for the AS/cert/bachelor's group. So it's not like the master's candidates were cut a ton of slack on HCE as a pre-requisite.

 

I also have to agree that moving to a master's is a good idea for the advancement of our profession and for our ability to compete with DNPs. What I would propose, though, is that more schools do what MEDEX has done - have the master's as an optional degree with some campuses remaining dedicated to obtaining a bachelor's degree.

[Acebecker]

Admittedly I have limited experience with this, but I can say for certain that those who were granted associates/certificates or bachelor's or master's degrees from MEDEX were all required to have the same minimum number of HCE hours. To my knowledge there have been no exceptions made regarding this requirement for master's students, and I would protest very strongly any change to that requirement.

 

Now, the average number of hours that accepted applicants have IS lower for the master's students than for the AS/cert/bachelor's students, but we're talking 6000 hrs for the master's folks vs. 10000 for the AS/cert/bachelor's group. So it's not like the master's candidates were cut a ton of slack on HCE as a pre-requisite.

 

I also have to agree that moving to a master's is a good idea for the advancement of our profession and for our ability to compete with DNPs. What I would propose, though, is that more schools do what MEDEX has done - have the master's as an optional degree with some campuses remaining dedicated to obtaining a bachelor's degree.

[Acebecker]

Admittedly I have limited experience with this, but I can say for certain that those who were granted associates/certificates or bachelor's or master's degrees from MEDEX were all required to have the same minimum number of HCE hours. To my knowledge there have been no exceptions made regarding this requirement for master's students, and I would protest very strongly any change to that requirement.

 

Now, the average number of hours that accepted applicants have IS lower for the master's students than for the AS/cert/bachelor's students, but we're talking 6000 hrs for the master's folks vs. 10000 for the AS/cert/bachelor's group. So it's not like the master's candidates were cut a ton of slack on HCE as a pre-requisite.

 

I also have to agree that moving to a master's is a good idea for the advancement of our profession and for our ability to compete with DNPs. What I would propose, though, is that more schools do what MEDEX has done - have the master's as an optional degree with some campuses remaining dedicated to obtaining a bachelor's degree.

[andersenpa]

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

 

They all have the same clinical content, so neither is better or worse

I just never heard (and don't think) that the HCE is significantly more for associates programs vs BS/masters

And as far as I know there is no correlate between HCE and PANCE rates

[andersenpa]

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

 

They all have the same clinical content, so neither is better or worse

I just never heard (and don't think) that the HCE is significantly more for associates programs vs BS/masters

And as far as I know there is no correlate between HCE and PANCE rates

[andersenpa]

I believe the masters mandate is going to happen and I believe it's fine. PAs have more than enough hours and training to award a masters. I think it shouldn't cost that much (not should MD or RN cost what they do) and I think saying a new grad DNP is better than an Associate PA Judy because of a degree shows a lack of understanding of both educations.

 

And Associates may not always have more HCE, but it's a safe bet. Besides, my point was again to bust the myth the associate trained PA is always worse clinically by default.

 

They all have the same clinical content, so neither is better or worse

I just never heard (and don't think) that the HCE is significantly more for associates programs vs BS/masters

And as far as I know there is no correlate between HCE and PANCE rates

[andersenpa]

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

 

All that means is that YOUR group doesn't consider it

I would hesitate to speak for every other practice in the country, many whose employment screening is done by non-clinical personnel.

[andersenpa]

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

 

All that means is that YOUR group doesn't consider it

I would hesitate to speak for every other practice in the country, many whose employment screening is done by non-clinical personnel.

[andersenpa]

And you would be wrong. I hire for my group (at least until I leave in August) and we have never once, NOT ONCE, discussed what degree a PA or NP applicant had. It doesn't matter to me, our medical director, our administrator, or our HR department. I'm more concerned with post graduate experience, and personality, and getting the right person, regardless of whether it is a PA or NP to fit the group and the department.

 

I've interviewed 2 NPs in the last 2 weeks, and we offered a position to one last week. She accepted. We have 3 interviews with PAs coming up soon too. I guarantee that what level of education they have won't even be discussed.

 

All that means is that YOUR group doesn't consider it

I would hesitate to speak for every other practice in the country, many whose employment screening is done by non-clinical personnel.

[EMEDPA]

I am involved with the hiring at my shop. I take the whole picture into account. someone with 20 yrs of experience and a certificate will likely get a job over a new grad with an ms for example. I agree that the ms is becoming the standard but I think it is happening for the wrong reasons(competition with np's and desire of programs to charge graduate tuition). I know MANY excellent candidates for pa school with a certificate or a.s. who are medics, nurses, rt's, etc who can't apply for ms programs because they don't have a bs and have families, bills, loans, etc.

most of them end up doing terminal bs programs in another field. This is why I like the medex model of multiple entry points. anyone who wants can get a postgrad ms later but I don't think it serves workforce needs to require a bs to get into pa school. as someone who has been involved with pa education over many years I don't think our applicant pool is currently balanced. I think it favors young and typically inexperienced individuals over those with prior careers in health care who we should be trying to recruit. if we insist on accepting inexperienced applicants based on academics only we should require a residency for anything other than primary care.

[EMEDPA]

I am involved with the hiring at my shop. I take the whole picture into account. someone with 20 yrs of experience and a certificate will likely get a job over a new grad with an ms for example. I agree that the ms is becoming the standard but I think it is happening for the wrong reasons(competition with np's and desire of programs to charge graduate tuition). I know MANY excellent candidates for pa school with a certificate or a.s. who are medics, nurses, rt's, etc who can't apply for ms programs because they don't have a bs and have families, bills, loans, etc.

most of them end up doing terminal bs programs in another field. This is why I like the medex model of multiple entry points. anyone who wants can get a postgrad ms later but I don't think it serves workforce needs to require a bs to get into pa school. as someone who has been involved with pa education over many years I don't think our applicant pool is currently balanced. I think it favors young and typically inexperienced individuals over those with prior careers in health care who we should be trying to recruit. if we insist on accepting inexperienced applicants based on academics only we should require a residency for anything other than primary care.