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1 hour ago, deltawave said:

This is a thing? What a terrible idea.

Why do you feel it is terrible? I honestly think it could be beneficial for people that work, have children etc and want to better themselves and practice medicine. Some people cannot afford to take two years off to attend a program at a brick and mortar school. 

 

Trey

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21 minutes ago, Tbrock94 said:

Why do you feel it is terrible? I honestly think it could be beneficial for people that work, have children etc and want to better themselves and practice medicine. Some people cannot afford to take two years off to attend a program at a brick and mortar school. 

 

Trey

Online doesn't necessarily mean you'll have the time to maintain a job or manage childcare concurrently.  Yale's online program must meet all standards of the brick and mortar.  It's still a TON of information to cover in 1 year and even Yale's isn't 100% online. 

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2 hours ago, Tbrock94 said:

 Also does anyone else have an online physician assistant program? 

Well, pretty much everywhere has an online program currently with the COVID-19 situation. My program (I'm almost done with didactic) went online for now; and while I prefer to be in class in person, I see no reason that online lectures with labs and simulation done in person couldn't work. Personally I think we will see many more programs moving at least some of their instruction online after this thing is over. But to answer your question, Yale is the only school I know of that offers an online program outside of our current circumstances.

I am a bit concerned that the perception that online coursework is inferior could hurt us in advancing the profession, or be a disadvantage to early adopters of online PA education, but there are loads of online NP schools and it doesn't seem to slow them down. Heck, even my med school colleagues are not required to attend lectures in person and have everything available online to watch later, so many of them get a lot of their instruction online, it's just not advertised that way. 

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10 minutes ago, Mayamom said:

Is the 2nd year on line?  Not sure how that would work.

No, Same as regular second yr elsewhere.

For those who are considering an online program I would like to present another option that already exists: part time programs. I did one and worked 20-30 hrs week year 1 and 2 as a paramedic. year 3 is the same as regular yr 2.

you take 3 courses at a time instead off 6. much more doable.

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While initially skeptics of online programs, actually I still am, they can be done well if correctly implemented.

i use to also think telemedicine was trash, but I realized it not the delivery method, it’s the people that use this form that tend to be its downfall. if an online program has open book tests, no in person physical exam assessments, pre-recorded lectures they don’t allow for engagement, then yes, throw that $h!7 in the trash. But you can allow people to not move cross country and still have good programs with live lectures, video proctored exams, video conferencing study groups, in person assments for physical exams, etc. My daughter was born during finals of the first semester. It would have made a world of difference for me to have been close to family. As it was, it was a huge burden on my wife to take ALL the responsibility while I focused on school.

Remember that there are lots of Med schools without mandatory lecture. How’s that any different? IMO, let’s just each online program with high scrutiny, but let’s not tossed the baby out with the bath water.

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1 hour ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

 

Remember that there are lots of Med schools without mandatory lecture. How’s that any different? IMO, let’s just each online program with high scrutiny, but let’s not tossed the baby out with the bath water.

the med schools with optional lecture don't do all of physical exam in 1 week. There is no way one gets as much out of 2 weeks on campus over the course of the year as one would being there every day, interacting with other students, doing exams and labs with them , etc. Doing a knee exam on your spouse is not as good as practicing on someone who can critique you.

 

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Pandemic not withstanding - I think online programs are a bad idea.

The Art of Medicine is so hands on - it requires attention, empathy, interpersonal skills and personal presentation.

I just can't support the idea. This has been expressed in many other threads.

Book smart and ability to pass tests does NOT a practitioner make.

I have gone to school with 4.0 Geeks who have zero bedside manner and the interpersonal skills of an IRS agent.

The educational experience of PAs requires their ability to team work, team solve and show their skills at communication and playing their role in a team. That can't be done online.

So, again, I vote NO for online schools that are supposed to teach hands on skill for a true profession.

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2 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

the med schools with optional lecture don't do all of physical exam in 1 week. There is no way one gets as much out of 2 weeks on campus over the course of the year as one would being there every day, interacting with other students, doing exams and labs with them , etc. Doing a knee exam on your spouse is not as good as practicing on someone who can critique you.

 

I disagree, respectfully. Finding real pathology is the teacher. I did a McMurray hundreds of time and never real got it until I felt that first click on my ortho rotation. Definitely needs to have several in-house assessments though at the end of every semester or quarter. During school I really only interacted with one student, my best friend now. The rest were distracting college kids. I watched the walking dead during radiology because the lecture was so bad and 4 hours long. I got way more out of reading books and just looking at the power points to focus on what was important. My dad, who went to Med school in the mid-late 70s, and I were taking about it and agree that with technology today there isn’t much you can’t do. Plus we would be gaining a lot of the experienced people back who can’t move because their family was established. Imagine if LECOM had a distant component? I’d be applying tomorrow. 
 

just my opinion that it CAN be done. Still agree that these types of programs should be evaluated with a microscope.

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2 hours ago, Reality Check 2 said:

Pandemic not withstanding - I think online programs are a bad idea.

The Art of Medicine is so hands on - it requires attention, empathy, interpersonal skills and personal presentation.

I just can't support the idea. This has been expressed in many other threads.

Book smart and ability to pass tests does NOT a practitioner make.

I have gone to school with 4.0 Geeks who have zero bedside manner and the interpersonal skills of an IRS agent.

The educational experience of PAs requires their ability to team work, team solve and show their skills at communication and playing their role in a team. That can't be done online.

So, again, I vote NO for online schools that are supposed to teach hands on skill for a true profession.

I don't think anyone is advocating for a completely online experience. That would certainly not be adequate. However, the  majority of didactic is death by power point, and there is zero reason that couldn't be online. To do it right would require regular in person meeting to learn physical exam, skills etc. 

Hybrid programs like that could be great for rural communities. Spend 75% of your time in your community and then go to campus a few times a month for PE, skills, etc. Might encourage people to stay in their communities and actually help expand care to these undeserved areas that we are supposedly so focused on. 

Like I said, it's not my preference, I like to be in the building (although, "going to school" in a button down shirt and sweat pants the last month has been nice...). But done right there is no reason it couldn't work. Fighting the perception that it won't work would be the hardest part, and as @LT_Oneal_PAC  said "these types of programs should be evaluated with a microscope."

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my issue with the online program is that there is limited on campus time for physical exam course, etc. I think I would be ok with online interactive lectures if the small group sections were in person for the same amt of regular time as the on campus version of the program. A week twice a year doesn't do that.

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2 hours ago, sam619 said:

Y’all love to hate on the NP’s for this issue and now suddenly it’s ok...

grabbing my bag of popcorn, brb. 

I think what we "hate on the NP's for" is the lack of standardized education, including their almost complete lack of supervising clinical rotations, and the paltry requirements needed to complete their education.  Can an NP be a great provider?  Absolutely, but it's not going to come from the majority of NP schools.  The other part that we "hate on the NP's for" is their militant approach to furthering their agenda, no matter how much it may actually be hurting healthcare overall (see nursing shortages) and diluting medicine to tepid wastewater.

 

Can an online PA program exist that does an excellent job at developing quality providers?  Absolutely, but it must be completed in a thoughtful way.  As EMEDPA stated, it should still require significant "hands-on" education, which in my mind could only be completed in person.  But, absolutely the vast majority of the didactic year(s) could be completed online.

I think one of the biggest issues many have with online education is that there is a sense of lower responsibility and security.  The responsibility portion, to me, is not true.  In fact, because it is essentially a self-driven study the students must be more responsible.  But, the issue with security is a potential issue that if thought through could be mostly rectified.  For example, some NP colleagues I used to work with would all meet together to take their online exams, completing them together.  On top of this, they actually hired one of their friends (an already licensed NP from their same program) to help with their exams.  While this example is from NPs, does that mean others don't pollute the system in other ways?  Of course they do...and that is one of the issues many have with online education.  I precepted a few NP students before stopping (mostly because they were clueless and had no concept of reviewing material to be prepared for the day), and their program required them to be on site for their exams.  So, the education was online and mostly self study, but the security issue was rectified by treating it as an "on-site" program.  All of their exams occurred during the same week (I believe every month or 6 weeks or something), so many would just share a hotel room, splitting the cost.  So my issue isn't with online education, it is how that online education is being completed and if it has a standardized process that meets or exceeds requirements placed on other programs.

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20 minutes ago, mgriffiths said:

I think what we "hate on the NP's for" is the lack of standardized education, including their almost complete lack of supervising clinical rotations, and the paltry requirements needed to complete their education.  Can an NP be a great provider?  Absolutely, but it's not going to come from the majority of NP schools.  The other part that we "hate on the NP's for" is their militant approach to furthering their agenda, no matter how much it may actually be hurting healthcare overall (see nursing shortages) and diluting medicine to tepid wastewater.

 

Can an online PA program exist that does an excellent job at developing quality providers?  Absolutely, but it must be completed in a thoughtful way.  As EMEDPA stated, it should still require significant "hands-on" education, which in my mind could only be completed in person.  But, absolutely the vast majority of the didactic year(s) could be completed online.

I think one of the biggest issues many have with online education is that there is a sense of lower responsibility and security.  The responsibility portion, to me, is not true.  In fact, because it is essentially a self-driven study the students must be more responsible.  But, the issue with security is a potential issue that if thought through could be mostly rectified.  For example, some NP colleagues I used to work with would all meet together to take their online exams, completing them together.  On top of this, they actually hired one of their friends (an already licensed NP from their same program) to help with their exams.  While this example is from NPs, does that mean others don't pollute the system in other ways?  Of course they do...and that is one of the issues many have with online education.  I precepted a few NP students before stopping (mostly because they were clueless and had no concept of reviewing material to be prepared for the day), and their program required them to be on site for their exams.  So, the education was online and mostly self study, but the security issue was rectified by treating it as an "on-site" program.  All of their exams occurred during the same week (I believe every month or 6 weeks or something), so many would just share a hotel room, splitting the cost.  So my issue isn't with online education, it is how that online education is being completed and if it has a standardized process that meets or exceeds requirements placed on other programs.

Confirm. As a former MSN student I have seen timed open book exams taken as groups online. My physical exam course in MSN had one day in house. We submitted a video of our final physical exam assessment. It ended up pretty bad because no instructor ever saw me do it before hand. Even practicing with other local students, it was the blind leading the blind. 
 

so I think it can be implemented well, the stigma against it is because it traditionally hasn’t been regulated. 

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my dislike of the NP EDUCATION is the EDUCATION not the NP, but the joke of education they get.  500 hours of clinical is just not enough

 

We do NOT need to copy them, we need to define ourselves

 

although I think there 'might" be a place for limited on line learning, I just don't think it is a good idea...

Edited by ventana
corrected wording
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3 hours ago, ventana said:

my dislike of the NP EDUCATION is not the the NP, but the joke of education they get.  500 hours of clinical is just not enough

 

We do NOT need to copy them, we need to define ourselves

 

although I think there 'might" be a place for limited on line learning, I just don't think it is a good idea...

agree

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On 4/12/2020 at 5:15 AM, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

Confirm. As a former MSN student I have seen timed open book exams taken as groups online. My physical exam course in MSN had one day in house. We submitted a video of our final physical exam assessment. It ended up pretty bad because no instructor ever saw me do it before hand. Even practicing with other local students, it was the blind leading the blind. 
 

so I think it can be implemented well, the stigma against it is because it traditionally hasn’t been regulated. 

Yikes.

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