msloan Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I've been working as a PA-C for 17 months. I worked at 2 hospitals. I was a hospitalist PA at one hospital. I work as an ER PA per diem at another hospital. In March I was hired for a full time PA ER opportunity. The director of the ER had spoken to the director of the ER I am currently employed at, regarding my job performance. They are actually good friends. I had been given my full time schedule for June. I had 7 references in all between the hospital and ER staffing company. 2 were preceptors, and 5 references were from colleagues. I was notified that I've been denied privileges and cannot begin work, due to a poor evaluation from the PA program I graduated. I was very surprised because I was not expecting this. I was an outspoken student. However, I never cheated, stole, or brought disgrace upon the PA program. I was wondering if this has happened to anyone? This situation has caused many setbacks. I've resigned from my full time job. Does anyone have any advice for me? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebecker Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 How did you get your initial privileges if there was such a problem in your past? Seems to me this ought to be a non issue at this point in time. Smells a little hinky. I would fins out what the problem with the program was and get that sorted out as this has the potential to cause you trouble in the future. Good luck. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 4, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 4, 2012 Also: get a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Also: get a lawyer. Agreed....a good one too....a real fighter!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msloan Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 Thanks for the advice. I was surprised that the school eval held such a weight on the hospital's decision, especially since I'm on staff at 2 hospitals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Did you get this in writing....what they said? I'm assuming(!) that you had to sign off on it....yes/no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 ... I was surprised that the school eval held such a weight on the hospital's decision ... Probably didn't... Search for another reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msloan Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 The ER director had called me afterwards. He told me that it was the school eval and advised me to withdraw my application for privileges. He stated that I should withdraw the application to prevent a "denial of privileges" on my permanent record. This way future hospitals will not know that I had been denied. The credentialling coordinator had refused to provide a copy of the school eval to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myerardi Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Seems to me that you are in an untenable position. You HAVE been denied privileges by the hospital. You risk being accused of lying if you don't mention this on future job applications. The fact that the credentialing coordinator would not give you copy of letter from school clearly indicates he (she) cares little about protecting you. You would likely be ratted out. There are obviously important parts of this situation missing. You don't provide much information about what being " an outspoken student" means, nor should you. That said, a skilled labor lawyer should be able to bring a suit based on denial of due process against both the school and the hospital. If someone makes statements about you that inhibit your ability to obtain work, care for your family, pay your bills, or even just protect your good name, then you have the right to defend yourself against those statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnpac Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Seems to me that you are in an untenable position. You HAVE been denied privileges by the hospital. You risk being accused of lying if you don't mention this on future job applications. The fact that the credentialing coordinator would not give you copy of letter from school clearly indicates he (she) cares little about protecting you. You would likely be ratted out. There are obviously important parts of this situation missing. You don't provide much information about what being " an outspoken student" means, nor should you. That said, a skilled labor lawyer should be able to bring a suit based on denial of due process against both the school and the hospital. If someone makes statements about you that inhibit your ability to obtain work, care for your family, pay your bills, or even just protect your good name, then you have the right to defend yourself against those statements. I serve on a hospital credentials committee and "withdrawal" is NOT a denial and doesn't need to be reported. We deal with this at every meeting. The applicant decided to not complete the application for privileges and that is the end of it and doesn't need to be reported to anyone. In our system, an applicant's experience and records after graduation are all that we look at. We assume that if an applicant successful completed training and residency, and has a valid and clear license without disciplinary actions, there is nothing else to look at in that regard that is pertinent to the current request for privileges. The credentials committee has to generate a vote on an applicant after submitting a complete application for there to be any medical staff record of action. Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnpac Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Seems to me that you are in an untenable position. You HAVE been denied privileges by the hospital. You risk being accused of lying if you don't mention this on future job applications. The fact that the credentialing coordinator would not give you copy of letter from school clearly indicates he (she) cares little about protecting you. You would likely be ratted out. There are obviously important parts of this situation missing. You don't provide much information about what being " an outspoken student" means, nor should you. That said, a skilled labor lawyer should be able to bring a suit based on denial of due process against both the school and the hospital. If someone makes statements about you that inhibit your ability to obtain work, care for your family, pay your bills, or even just protect your good name, then you have the right to defend yourself against those statements. I serve on a hospital credentials committee and "withdrawal" is NOT a denial and doesn't need to be reported. We deal with this at every meeting. The applicant decided to not complete the application for privileges and that is the end of it and doesn't need to be reported to anyone. In our system, an applicant's experience and records after graduation are all that we look at. We assume that if an applicant successful completed training and residency, and has a valid and clear license without disciplinary actions, there is nothing else to look at in that regard that is pertinent to the current request for privileges. The credentials committee has to generate a vote on an applicant after submitting a complete application for there to be any medical staff record of action. Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnpac Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Seems to me that you are in an untenable position. You HAVE been denied privileges by the hospital. You risk being accused of lying if you don't mention this on future job applications. The fact that the credentialing coordinator would not give you copy of letter from school clearly indicates he (she) cares little about protecting you. You would likely be ratted out. There are obviously important parts of this situation missing. You don't provide much information about what being " an outspoken student" means, nor should you. That said, a skilled labor lawyer should be able to bring a suit based on denial of due process against both the school and the hospital. If someone makes statements about you that inhibit your ability to obtain work, care for your family, pay your bills, or even just protect your good name, then you have the right to defend yourself against those statements. I serve on a hospital credentials committee and "withdrawal" is NOT a denial and doesn't need to be reported. We deal with this at every meeting. The applicant decided to not complete the application for privileges and that is the end of it and doesn't need to be reported to anyone. In our system, an applicant's experience and records after graduation are all that we look at. We assume that if an applicant successful completed training and residency, and has a valid and clear license without disciplinary actions, there is nothing else to look at in that regard that is pertinent to the current request for privileges. The credentials committee has to generate a vote on an applicant after submitting a complete application for there to be any medical staff record of action. Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. ^^^ Yep ^^^ Those were my initial thoughts also. Doesn't pass the smell test... 1.) Even if you were a complete PITA student... you are graduated and gone. Good Riddance... From the program's perspective... they have dealt with PITA students before (Unless its a NEW program). There's usually a couple to a few in EVERY matriculating class. If they are professional, its not likely that they would want to do anything that would require them to deal with that particular PITA again. So when someone calls to check to see if the PITA graduated, confirm and move on would be the way to go. If the student was a "bee in the program's bonnet" when they were there for that 24 months... just not smart or likely thhat the program would purposely do anything that would cause them to have to interact with the "abrasive" student any further past graduation. Also... Unless they are rank amateurs... they know what a litigeous mine-field they would be traversing if they gave a substandard reference for a student THEY GRADUATED and let loose on the unsuspecting and vulnerable patients/public. They would also know... intuitively that giving a substandard refernce on "That PITA student" that they were glad to see go wouldn't go well and be unnecessarily asking for trouble and legal action. Soo... just doesn't make sense and doesn't smell right. There is MORE to the story... on all sides (PA, Program, Hospital) that hasn't been illuminated. Pay attention to the background and experience of who they DO hire for that position... and WHO this person knows and his/her relationship with the key players in that hospital. Just my initial thoughts, based upon what has been shared here... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. ^^^ Yep ^^^ Those were my initial thoughts also. Doesn't pass the smell test... 1.) Even if you were a complete PITA student... you are graduated and gone. Good Riddance... From the program's perspective... they have dealt with PITA students before (Unless its a NEW program). There's usually a couple to a few in EVERY matriculating class. If they are professional, its not likely that they would want to do anything that would require them to deal with that particular PITA again. So when someone calls to check to see if the PITA graduated, confirm and move on would be the way to go. If the student was a "bee in the program's bonnet" when they were there for that 24 months... just not smart or likely thhat the program would purposely do anything that would cause them to have to interact with the "abrasive" student any further past graduation. Also... Unless they are rank amateurs... they know what a litigeous mine-field they would be traversing if they gave a substandard reference for a student THEY GRADUATED and let loose on the unsuspecting and vulnerable patients/public. They would also know... intuitively that giving a substandard refernce on "That PITA student" that they were glad to see go wouldn't go well and be unnecessarily asking for trouble and legal action. Soo... just doesn't make sense and doesn't smell right. There is MORE to the story... on all sides (PA, Program, Hospital) that hasn't been illuminated. Pay attention to the background and experience of who they DO hire for that position... and WHO this person knows and his/her relationship with the key players in that hospital. Just my initial thoughts, based upon what has been shared here... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Second, I agree with Contrarian that there has to be more here that they are not telling msloan. I would defer to some of the educators on this forum, but I was under the impression that any type of academic records that relate to internal matters, discipline, etc., are privileged and can't be used against a PA or physician. The program was completed successfully. They granted a diploma. If they had doubts about student, why pass him or her? This doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like BS. ^^^ Yep ^^^ Those were my initial thoughts also. Doesn't pass the smell test... 1.) Even if you were a complete PITA student... you are graduated and gone. Good Riddance... From the program's perspective... they have dealt with PITA students before (Unless its a NEW program). There's usually a couple to a few in EVERY matriculating class. If they are professional, its not likely that they would want to do anything that would require them to deal with that particular PITA again. So when someone calls to check to see if the PITA graduated, confirm and move on would be the way to go. If the student was a "bee in the program's bonnet" when they were there for that 24 months... just not smart or likely thhat the program would purposely do anything that would cause them to have to interact with the "abrasive" student any further past graduation. Also... Unless they are rank amateurs... they know what a litigeous mine-field they would be traversing if they gave a substandard reference for a student THEY GRADUATED and let loose on the unsuspecting and vulnerable patients/public. They would also know... intuitively that giving a substandard refernce on "That PITA student" that they were glad to see go wouldn't go well and be unnecessarily asking for trouble and legal action. Soo... just doesn't make sense and doesn't smell right. There is MORE to the story... on all sides (PA, Program, Hospital) that hasn't been illuminated. Pay attention to the background and experience of who they DO hire for that position... and WHO this person knows and his/her relationship with the key players in that hospital. Just my initial thoughts, based upon what has been shared here... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. If you led your faculty members to think you were a prick, they are entitled to that opinion, and that opinion is not necessarily actionable. Here's an example trial transcript: "Mr Faculty, how would you characterize the student's academic performance?" "It was fine." "Would you hire this applicant if you were in a position to do so?" "No, he is a lazy jerk" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. If you led your faculty members to think you were a prick, they are entitled to that opinion, and that opinion is not necessarily actionable. Here's an example trial transcript: "Mr Faculty, how would you characterize the student's academic performance?" "It was fine." "Would you hire this applicant if you were in a position to do so?" "No, he is a lazy jerk" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. If you led your faculty members to think you were a prick, they are entitled to that opinion, and that opinion is not necessarily actionable. Here's an example trial transcript: "Mr Faculty, how would you characterize the student's academic performance?" "It was fine." "Would you hire this applicant if you were in a position to do so?" "No, he is a lazy jerk" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. Tooooo many things wrong professionally with this and tooooo many things has to go right for it to happen. Again... NOT LIKELY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. Tooooo many things wrong professionally with this and tooooo many things has to go right for it to happen. Again... NOT LIKELY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is pretty easy for an educator to write an eval that says a student is very smart, has great skills, and unfortunately has a personality that puts decent humans to flight. Tooooo many things wrong professionally with this and tooooo many things has to go right for it to happen. Again... NOT LIKELY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 What's wrong with it professionally? A potential employer asks for my honest opinion and I give it to them. I am entitled to my opinion. The alternative is that I write a glowing review of an awful human being and the employer who receives it never takes anything I say at face value again. Sorry, but I will not jeopardize my credibility to ensure some wretch lands a job. I remind students at least annually that professional behavior comprises part of how they are being assessed. If they wish, they are free to behave like a lazy jackass but if they do so it is not a good idea to ask me for a letter of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 What's wrong with it professionally? A potential employer asks for my honest opinion and I give it to them. I am entitled to my opinion. The alternative is that I write a glowing review of an awful human being and the employer who receives it never takes anything I say at face value again. Sorry, but I will not jeopardize my credibility to ensure some wretch lands a job. I remind students at least annually that professional behavior comprises part of how they are being assessed. If they wish, they are free to behave like a lazy jackass but if they do so it is not a good idea to ask me for a letter of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 What's wrong with it professionally? A potential employer asks for my honest opinion and I give it to them. I am entitled to my opinion. The alternative is that I write a glowing review of an awful human being and the employer who receives it never takes anything I say at face value again. Sorry, but I will not jeopardize my credibility to ensure some wretch lands a job. I remind students at least annually that professional behavior comprises part of how they are being assessed. If they wish, they are free to behave like a lazy jackass but if they do so it is not a good idea to ask me for a letter of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnpac Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I serve on a hospital credentials committee and "withdrawal" is NOT a denial and doesn't need to be reported. I was wrong and gave bad advice. My sincere apologies. I'm in the process of completing crendentialling for Kaiser Permanente, and they ask the question have "...you ever withdrawn an application for privileges?" I don't think that this would hurt you if you gave an honest explanation. However, This changes what I think you should do. I think that you should force the Credentials Committee to actually hear you case and make a recorded vote. As a member of a credentials committee in a hospital environment, I would not base my formal vote on "he said / she said" heresay, as this may have legal implications for the medical staff unfairly restricting your privileges and right to practice. They are trying to get you to back off voluntarily, which is not in your best interest as a medical professional. Sounds like a set up. Retain an attorney. If you are in California, that attorney is Shirley Paine, PA, JD with Foley Lardner. This is her specialty (she was also trained as a PA) and I have seen her in action at medical staff committee meetings, and can think of no better advocate in this situation. :-) This BS has the potential to negatively affect you entire career and you need to adress it head on and not be intimidated by folks who have an ulterior motive. The best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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