PA is #3 best Job in America

[Joelseff]

Despite all the chicken little talk here on this forum and sometimes in the huddle, we are still one of the top professions in the US.

 

It can be better but I think we got it pretty good compared to other professions.

 

Here's to making the profession better.

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

[mgriffiths]

Absolutely agree...doesn't mean we shouldn't make strides to move our profession forward with possible name change and OTP (or more)...

[Cideous]

Let's see in 5 years when NP's are destroying us legislatively what you have to say to chicken little.  I have to laugh a little, this is the same thing that was said 20 years ago and then 15 years ago.  We are fine, no worries.  We are number 3!!!!  Then NP's lapped us.

Then...new grad PA's can't find jobs.  NP's with no legislative handcuffs steamrolling us as non-clinical admins who hire NP's over PA's based strictly on lack of legislation red tape with NP's.

 

I will end my career fighting tooth and nail for new PA's...hopefully soon to be Medical Practitioners.   

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Cideous

[ANESMCR]

Wouldn’t “other professions” have to be NP or MD for logical comparison? I mean, you can’t really compare being a PA to a mechanical engineer or a marine biologist. So in that case, since us newbies have to basically take what we can get from the scraps, #3 makes sense.

[mgriffiths]

4 hours ago, Cideous said:

Let's see in 5 years when NP's are destroying us legislatively what you have to say to chicken little.  I have to laugh a little, this is the same thing that was said 20 years ago and then 15 years ago.  We are fine, no worries.  We are number 3!!!!  Then NP's lapped us.

Then...new grad PA's can't find jobs.  NP's with no legislative handcuffs steamrolling us as non-clinical admins who hire NP's over PA's based strictly on lack of legislation red tape with NP's.

 

I will end my career fighting tooth and nail for new PA's...hopefully soon to be Medical Practitioners.   

I don't think that is what we are saying, or at least not what I am saying.  What I am trying to say is that while there are some very vocal individuals who are quite negative about our profession's trajectory, there is some objective and subjective data to show that all is not lost.  This doesn't mean that we are fine to just ignore changes occurring in our world.  Yeah, there has been some poor decision making in the past...it's unfortunate, but that can't be changed.  To dwell on the past is pointless, to learn from it is progress.  I, for one, believe that we are making progress.  Is it as fast as I would prefer?  No!  But it is progress nonetheless and progress always starts slow.  Of course we need to keep pushing, and to try to get the progress to snowball more quickly...WE'RE PLAYING CATCHUP...but progress is progress.

[Joelseff]

Wouldn’t “other professions” have to be NP or MD for logical comparison? I mean, you can’t really compare being a PA to a mechanical engineer or a marine biologist. So in that case, since us newbies have to basically take what we can get from the scraps, #3 makes sense.

What I meant was for a masters level job we have pretty good job outlook depending on area and specialty and we are expected to make 6 figures at graduation... That's pretty good...and even compared to NPs, they have had independence in 22 states but PAs have not completely dried up in those states and generally have equal and sometimes higher pay.

 

Now, Vs MD/DO well, we have much less education costs and time in school to have (at least in IM and FP and possibly EM) comparable autonomy and relatively great pay considering school and school cost factors...  

 

 

@Cideous: I don't think the sky is falling, maybe cracking a little but I think we have to keep fighting and I think the leadership we have is much more forward thinking than years past. But definitely still need work. Like I said we have A LOT of work to do still but I wouldn't want to give the idea that PAs need to jump ship.

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ANESMCR]

10 hours ago, mgriffiths said:

What I am trying to say is that while there are some very vocal individuals who are quite negative about our profession's trajectory, there is some objective and subjective data to show that all is not lost. 

While I largely agree with you, I wish there were data showing/sampling new grad employment success rates with included time-frames, salary, desired field&location. As well as NP job availability vs PA with associated salary differences. Something tells me said data might shed a lot of light on what’s going on to more veteran PAs in the field.

[mgriffiths]

 

48 minutes ago, ANESMCR said:

While I largely agree with you, I wish there were data showing/sampling new grad employment success rates with included time-frames, salary, desired field&location. As well as NP job availability vs PA with associated salary differences. Something tells me said data might shed a lot of light on what’s going on to more veteran PAs in the field.

I absolutely agree there are problems.  While I have never personally run into NP only positions or lost my job to an NP, I know it is happening.  I have actually been blessed in that my current and previous employers both heavily preferred PAs.  The only reason they would hire an NP is if they couldn't find a PA, because there aren't enough that want to work in rural/mid-size towns in the Mid-West.

Generally speaking, the PAs that struggle to find a job are new-grads who expect to have employers coming to them from locations that are generally considered the most sought after in the country.  While in the past employers may have pursued new grads, personally I think the biggest reason this isn't occurring as much is due to both PA and NP saturation, not so much simply because NPs are beating us legislatively.

 

Bottom line, we have work to do, and that is an understatement.  But, I don't believe we are anywhere close to where I would feel it is ethically wrong to recommend someone pursue PA over NP.  Could that time come?  Sure, and until OTP and other changes started happening in the last few years I felt like that could occur in 5-10 years.  Now that we are making progress, I strongly feel that we have the ability to not only save our profession, but advance it in incredible ways that our predecessors never even dreamed!  Some may say I'm crazy, but I like to be an optimist rooted in reality.  Being negative all the time is just depressing.

[Cideous]

It's not being negative.  It's pointing out reality and refusing to stick one's head in the sand.

 

OTP vs Full Autonomy

Assistant vs Practitioner

 

That's as real as it gets.

You are a non-clinical admin....who are you going to hire?

[rev ronin]

Do we really need to infuse the same arguments into every thread, folks? I think we're discussing the future plenty... I would hate to see a hyper-focus on that topic drive conversation away from other aspects of care and professional concerns.

[ANESMCR]

48 minutes ago, mgriffiths said:

Generally speaking, the PAs that struggle to find a job are new-grads who expect to have employers coming to them from locations that are generally considered the most sought after in the country.

This I disagree with both anecdotally and objectively. It has taken me nearly 6 months to receive offers or interviews in the Midwest. In very undesirable rural locations. While I’ve also seen many of my colleagues on the east coast unable to land jobs as new grads. I have old classmates who are working as waiters and waitresses now. In areas thought to have more positions available than much of the country. Those who have found jobs are working for carrots with ungodly awful contracts. With exception of a select few. Nevertheless, not the majority and that’s the point from my perspective at least. That, on top of the chicken little talk from so many new grads online. Data would be great. But that would never happen, right? AAPA would never open its doors to criticism. I’d love to be proven wrong on that someday. 

Everything else you stated, I agree.

 

Edit: The worst part about what I said above is, increasingly it’s apparent that nobody cares. Like rev said, plenty of topics discussing the future. But we’re stuck in the present. With student loans, families, and waiter’s tips. Expected to jump through entirely new obstacles of hoops after certifying. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this topic so easily dismissed. Especially in the huddle. Why would anyone speak up? There’s no voice to have.

Edited February 3, 2020 by ANESMCR

[Cideous]

20 minutes ago, ANESMCR said:

Edit: The worst part about what I said above is, increasingly it’s apparent that nobody cares. Like rev said, plenty of topics discussing the future. But we’re stuck in the present. With student loans, families, and waiter’s tips. Expected to jump through entirely new obstacles of hoops after certifying. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this topic so easily dismissed. Especially in the huddle. Why would anyone speak up? There’s no voice to have.

And that is why I keep screaming about it.  I don't even have a dog in this fight anymore, as I have one foot firmly placed into retirement.  It just drives me nuts to see the short sighted nature of PA's.  As long as they have theirs for now, it's head in the sand time.  New grads are on the front lines of this and sooner rather than later it's going to affect even PA's with experience.  Ah well.  Enough for one day.  Rev is warming up the eject button...I can feel it.   

[SoCal_PA]

The NPs already have us beat as far as independence and legislation. I wonder why they keep coming up under us on these lists 

[ShakaHoo]

35 minutes ago, SoCal_PA said:

The NPs already have us beat as far as independence and legislation. I wonder why they keep coming up under us on these lists 

Pay

[SoCal_PA]

55 minutes ago, ShakaHoo said:

Pay

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-best-jobs

 

The difference on their list is $1,500. I think most of us would trade that insignificant amount for more independence 

[SedRate]

5 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

It has taken me nearly 6 months to receive offers or interviews in the Midwest. In very undesirable rural locations. While I’ve also seen many of my colleagues on the east coast unable to land jobs as new grads. I have old classmates who are working as waiters and waitresses now. In areas thought to have more positions available than much of the country. Those who have found jobs are working for carrots with ungodly awful contracts. With exception of a select few. Nevertheless, not the majority and that’s the point from my perspective at least. That, on top of the chicken little talk from so many new grads online. Data would be great. But that would never happen, right? AAPA would never open its doors to criticism. I’d love to be proven wrong on that someday. 

You mention your colleagues who are new grads are having difficulty. Are you a new grad, too? When did you start applying for jobs and when did you graduate? Are you following up every 48 hours to 1 week on emails and phone correspondences? What kind of prior, real-world work experience do you and your colleagues have? 

Undesirable, rural locations are not always the best place for a new grad who likely needs help getting up to speed than one who has been out for a year or two. Perhaps that may be a reason for lack of interest from potential employers.

What kind of jobs are you applying to and what kind of experience do you have from rotations and pre-PA? 

These questions are meant to help elucidate areas of improvement when it comes to the job search, especially for a higher order one like PA which requires investment by the business in onboarding and training you, which is very expensive the first year, especially for licensing, credentialing, reduced productivity due to taking the time to train, etc. Some businesses aren't interested in hiring someone they don't want to invest money in or someone who is unproven (aka new grad with no relevant experience).

And remember, being flexible in your location or area of medicine will increase your employability. You can consider taking a position in a different field, but one that will help poise you for your next job, while you are awaiting your desired field. 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

6 hours ago, rev ronin said:

Do we really need to infuse the same arguments into every thread, folks? I think we're discussing the future plenty... I would hate to see a hyper-focus on that topic drive conversation away from other aspects of care and professional concerns.

#facts

6 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

This I disagree with both anecdotally and objectively. It has taken me nearly 6 months to receive offers or interviews in the Midwest. In very undesirable rural locations. While I’ve also seen many of my colleagues on the east coast unable to land jobs as new grads. I have old classmates who are working as waiters and waitresses now. In areas thought to have more positions available than much of the country. Those who have found jobs are working for carrots with ungodly awful contracts. With exception of a select few. Nevertheless, not the majority and that’s the point from my perspective at least. That, on top of the chicken little talk from so many new grads online. Data would be great. But that would never happen, right? AAPA would never open its doors to criticism. I’d love to be proven wrong on that someday. 

Everything else you stated, I agree.

 

Edit: The worst part about what I said above is, increasingly it’s apparent that nobody cares. Like rev said, plenty of topics discussing the future. But we’re stuck in the present. With student loans, families, and waiter’s tips. Expected to jump through entirely new obstacles of hoops after certifying. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this topic so easily dismissed. Especially in the huddle. Why would anyone speak up? There’s no voice to have.

Uh, AAPA is speaking up all the time now and so are constituents. You haven’t been around long enough to remember when it was bad. Like when we had a title change survey showing a plurality wanted a change and it was just tossed aside. 
 

i understand people want change, but the AAPA has made HUGE changes even since I started. OTP, title change, giving money to state’s to lobby for OTP, throwing out CEOs that don’t share our vision.

as far as the Midwest job search, just hired 2 new grads for EM-Hospitalist at a job I left. Certainly being paid a more than fair wage. University just hires another PA for MICU position. All the PA grads from December at the local university have jobs right now. I get calls for jobs all the time. Got a call for a NC family Med job just last week. I don’t even do FM anymore. They have been begging on comphealth for over a month to find a CVT PA, willing to train. I have 3 jobs. not going to lie. Some places are tight. MDs feel the same squeeze, to a lesser extent. NPs feel the squeeze too. We definitely need to fight legislatively to make ourselves as marketable as possible, and I agree that keeping the status quo is the same as falling behind, but good things are happening and most problems finding a job are self imposed, though maybe unavoidable.
 

@Cideouswe have things to work on, and we need to push. There are definitely some places that want an NP over a PA for admin reasons. I’m the biggest proponent of uncoupling ourselves from physician without apologies,, but things are looking brighter than ever. And telling everyone it sucks and looks suckier everyday, is not doing the profession a favor. At this point you guys are being detrimental to the cause by always digging the AAPA. How do you expect there to be change if you tell people the AAPA doesn’t listen so no one wants to join and pay dues? I’m not saying stop talking, because it’s the big mouths, god I love them, at PAFT that kicked AAPA in the balls and made it all happen. But even PAFT acknowledges when great things are happening.

[EMEDPA]

12 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

it’s the big mouths, god I love them, at PAFT that kicked AAPA in the balls and made it all happen. But even PAFT acknowledges when great things are happening.

Thanks for this. I was in the room when we talked the AAPA into saying "just say PA" and was privileged to watch Beth and Brian come up with the core concepts of OTP.  PAFT may be small, but we make waves...

[Joelseff]

A huge win for us in PAFT is having Mittman become AAPA president. I think the following presidents will have a road map to go by now.

 

We aren't where we need to be and yes the old guard screwed us in years past but C'mon people you gotta be happy about the moves that are being made right now.

 

NPs got us beat in some areas FOR Now. I remember a few years ago I said all we need is independence and the NP argument is dead. We clearly have better training (yes I said it) what's an NP gonna tout once we reach independence or FPA? But we gotta keep going and not stop until we have achieved our goals in all 50 states.

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Joelseff]

I wonder how many of the grumblers are actively involved in their state society and AAPA? Or is this forum the extent of your protest? [emoji848]

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[ANESMCR]

1 hour ago, Sed said:

You mention your colleagues who are new grads are having difficulty. Are you a new grad, too? When did you start applying for jobs and when did you graduate? Are you following up every 48 hours to 1 week on emails and phone correspondences? What kind of prior, real-world work experience do you and your colleagues have? 

Undesirable, rural locations are not always the best place for a new grad who likely needs help getting up to speed than one who has been out for a year or two. Perhaps that may be a reason for lack of interest from potential employers.

What kind of jobs are you applying to and what kind of experience do you have from rotations and pre-PA? 

These questions are meant to help elucidate areas of improvement when it comes to the job search, especially for a higher order one like PA which requires investment by the business in onboarding and training you, which is very expensive the first year, especially for licensing, credentialing, reduced productivity due to taking the time to train, etc. Some businesses aren't interested in hiring someone they don't want to invest money in or someone who is unproven (aka new grad with no relevant experience).

And remember, being flexible in your location or area of medicine will increase your employability. You can consider taking a position in a different field, but one that will help poise you for your next job, while you are awaiting your desired field. 

5 years CNA, EMT, Anes Tech. Two premed B.Sc. Started my trek to PA school 8 years ago. I graduated 08/2019 and started job searching/applying immediately. Yes, I f/u regularly, write emails, make phone calls, apply more than once, you name it. First month I was applying to my areas of interest (Family med). Second month expanded to endo, UC, EM, RPA, surgery, neuro, psych, rheum, ortho. Only thing I haven’t applied to is OB/GYN. I had a standard rotational experience with additional surgical training. I have been very flexible with exception to large metropolitan areas. Of which I refuse to live in because...quite frankly it would be torture for someone like myself. I’ve applied to hundreds of jobs ranging from UT, NM, MT, CO, WY, and FL. One family med opportunity came out of it and they eventually went with a candidate with more experience. I’m originally from northern CO, a location which I’ve accepted is a long shot for jobs from my experience there thus far. Even with my connections from years in the hospital systems there. As for my colleagues, their backgrounds range from scribing, emt’s, RT’s, etc. As of late, I do have two interviews set up now. One of which I’m very hopeful for. 
 

None of that is ever my point. I don’t want to throw anecdotal stories in others faces. I appreciate the leaps and bounds AAPA/PAFT has made in the last several years. All I am saying is that I was floored by the reality of the market these days. That it can take months and months to find something. And aggravated that nobody wants to talk about it. I kidd you not, not one dose of reality is handed to bright-eyed pre and current PA students when discussing opportunity. Those three pillars of job searching simply aren’t there anymore. People don’t even believe you when you tell them it’s more difficult to land a good PA job these days. After all, we’re #3 right? Instead, it’s as if I’m committing an act of treason by speaking up after seeing so many new grads dismissed so easily due to lack of experience in the field, AAPA, you name it. The conversation always end with, “well, it must be something you’re doing wrong”. So I will cower back into the new grad corner I belong in, keep my mouth zipped, and keep on truckin. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by ANESMCR

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

46 minutes ago, ANESMCR said:

5 years CNA, EMT, Anes Tech. Two premed B.Sc. Started my trek to PA school 8 years ago. I graduated 08/2019 and started job searching/applying immediately. Yes, I f/u regularly, write emails, make phone calls, apply more than once, you name it. First month I was applying to my areas of interest (Family med). Second month expanded to endo, UC, EM, RPA, surgery, neuro, psych, rheum, ortho. Only thing I haven’t applied to is OB/GYN. I had a standard rotational experience with additional surgical training. I have been very flexible with exception to large metropolitan areas. Of which I refuse to live in because...quite frankly it would be torture for someone like myself. I’ve applied to hundreds of jobs ranging from UT, NM, MT, CO, WY, and FL. One family med opportunity came out of it and they eventually went with a candidate with more experience. I’m originally from northern CO, a location which I’ve accepted is a long shot for jobs from my experience there thus far. Even with my connections from years in the hospital systems there. As for my colleagues, their backgrounds range from scribing, emt’s, RT’s, etc. As of late, I do have two interviews set up now. One of which I’m very hopeful for. 
 

None of that is ever my point. I don’t want to throw anecdotal stories in others faces. I appreciate the leaps and bounds AAPA/PAFT has made in the last several years. All I am saying is that I was floored by the reality of the market these days. That it can take months and months to find something. And aggravated that nobody wants to talk about it. I kidd you not, not one dose of reality is handed to bright-eyed pre and current PA students when discussing opportunity. Those three pillars of job searching simply aren’t there anymore. People don’t even believe you when you tell them it’s more difficult to land a good PA job these days. After all, we’re #3 right? Instead, it’s as if I’m committing an act of treason by speaking up after seeing so many new grads dismissed so easily due to lack of experience in the field, AAPA, you name it. The conversation always end with, “well, it must be something you’re doing wrong”. So I will cower back into the new grad corner I belong in, keep my mouth zipped, and keep on truckin. 

Okay, I’ve been awake for 30 hours and I’m going to speak my mind. No one attacked you so you can put that card back in the deck. I conceded plenty of points that makes it hard for a new grad these days. I’m sure it’s a rosier view for me, but equally sure you see it darker than it is from your vantage point. It’s all about perspective. I have no doubt that you may be having trouble finding a job, but statistically speaking you are an anomaly. I’m willing to help you in whatever way I can. Seriously, I can point you in some directions( doesn’t sound like you are looking in my truly Midwest flyover state), but saturation isn’t the fault of the AAPA. I could blame it on the ARC-PA for not having stringent enough standards for school accreditation, but then we would be in a different predicament with NPs taking all those vacancies left from the vacuum of too few PA graduates. 

No, the real problem here is a complacent constituency who doesn’t get involved, doesn’t donate to the political action committee, doesn’t stand up for PAs at work, PAs that take low salaries so they can live in the big city with a saturated market, PAs that are afraid to rock the boat. 
 

that being said, things are looking better. Fire and brimstone sermons will only attract so many souls. We have to show the changes that has been made. The impact that we have had on people’s daily practices and they should want to support that with their time and their dollars.

[ANESMCR]

51 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

Okay, I’ve been awake for 30 hours and I’m going to speak my mind. No one attacked you so you can put that card back in the deck. I conceded plenty of points that makes it hard for a new grad these days. I’m sure it’s a rosier view for me, but equally sure you see it darker than it is from your vantage point. It’s all about perspective. I have no doubt that you may be having trouble finding a job, but statistically speaking you are an anomaly. I’m willing to help you in whatever way I can. Seriously, I can point you in some directions( doesn’t sound like you are looking in my truly Midwest flyover state), but saturation isn’t the fault of the AAPA. I could blame it on the ARC-PA for not having stringent enough standards for school accreditation, but then we would be in a different predicament with NPs taking all those vacancies left from the vacuum of too few PA graduates. 

No, the real problem here is a complacent constituency who doesn’t get involved, doesn’t donate to the political action committee, doesn’t stand up for PAs at work, PAs that take low salaries so they can live in the big city with a saturated market, PAs that are afraid to rock the boat. 
 

that being said, things are looking better. Fire and brimstone sermons will only attract so many souls. We have to show the changes that has been made. The impact that we have had on people’s daily practices and they should want to support that with their time and their dollars.

I agree. It is largely about perspective. And I appreciate yours. Yes, mine has darker days. I hope that you did not think I was being too defensive, I was just trying walk the lines of generalization (from my experiences as well as the new grads I know). I will be involved in my state. I will donate and already do. And I will do everything in my power to rock the boat. I guarantee it. Most of which I will always feel obligated to do after experiencing the new grad struggle, so for that I am thankful. Thanks for your input and I really do appreciate the extended hand. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by ANESMCR

[Joelseff]

I agree. It is largely about perspective. And I appreciate yours. Yes, mine has darker days. I hope that you did not think I was being too defensive, I was just trying walk the lines of generalization (from my experiences as well as the new grads I know). I will be involved in my state. I will donate and already do. And I will do everything in my power to rock the boat. I guarantee it. Most of which I will always feel obligated to do after experiencing the new grad struggle, so for that I am thankful. Thanks for your input and I really do appreciate the extended hand. 

I think waiting for the job adds to angst. Hang in there. Sounds like you are getting some good leads. There was a guy here who when I first started used to tell me "Get in where you fit in" and that your first job is not going to define your career. I worked in Pain mgmt my first job out of school and would not go back but at the time I had rent, 2 kids and a wife to support so I had to take what was available. This was 10 years ago. Hang in there!

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[rev ronin]

1 hour ago, ANESMCR said:

I graduated 08/2019 and started job searching/applying immediately.

Not that you can go back and do this again, but I believe that 3-6 months prior to graduation is the appropriate time for starting to job hunt.  I had a signed offer in hand (contingent on graduation and PANCE, of course) in May (or was it June?) for a September start date 1 month after my August graduation, and I got another informal offer ("well, if you didn't already have a job lined up...") from my final rotation.