Felony DUI

[MedicinePower]

There are two records- arrest record and criminal charges record. Your arrest record will always be there even in the case where you're innocent of a charges and won the criminal case. I am not aware of anyone who has had their arrest records suppressed or expunged even is absolutely bogus cases. When people say "it still came up on my background check" they mean a record of the arrest for DUI showed up. Expungement or sealing of a record prevents the criminal conviction from being revealed but, again, the arrest record will still likely show up.

Edited January 17, 2020 by MedicinePower

[LPZ]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:27 AM, FiremedicMike said:

In my state the only way for a first time OVI to be a felony is if there is serious bodily harm involved. 

In CA where I live, you need a prior DUI Hx ie 4th within 10 years or a prior DUI felony conviction(no time limit) OR since the OP said it was a first offense, a DUI goes from misdemeanor to felony with serious bodily harm or death. 

 

[6oo6le]

On 1/13/2020 at 2:12 PM, austynmiller said:

Hi all! I have a question for anyone out there that may have experience with this personally or know a PA that has gone through something like this. I was convicted of felony DUI Oct 2018. I have been sober since then and am doing really well in that regard. My conviction is still under review with the board in CA. I had to do 2 months jail time and I am on 5 years probation. I have been attending AA regularly and keep record of it all. My attorney says I have a good chance at probation for my license as opposed to suspension or revocation. Anyone have experience with this type of situation? I have been practicing for 8 years and have excellent letters of recommendation from previous employer. I moved to GA and am hoping to apply for my license here once CA has decided what they will do. ANY input would be helpful! Thank you!

I was able to locate your case by the CA Medical Board.  After reading it, I can 100% state that you should never make any attempt at omission to any licensing agency.  It's public information and there is absolutely no way around this.  My original advice stands - don't even bother expunging this as it's a waste of time, money, energy as you have been reported to several agencies.  I've been there.  Try to move forward and keep your head high and make plans for Options A, B, C, D, E.  Best of luck.  

[MedicinePower]

4 hours ago, 6oo6le said:

I was able to locate your case by the CA Medical Board.  After reading it, I can 100% state that you should never make any attempt at omission to any licensing agency.  It's public information and there is absolutely no way around this.  My original advice stands - don't even bother expunging this as it's a waste of time, money, energy as you have been reported to several agencies.  I've been there.  Try to move forward and keep your head high and make plans for Options A, B, C, D, E.  Best of luck.  

Please don't listen to the "advice" of some random person on the internet. Consult an attorney in your state who specializes in medical licensure.

[austynmiller]

Thanks again to you all for your responses to my inquiry. The reason for elevation to felony is that I did cause an accident, however, no injuries were reported at the time of the accident. The victim in this case reported at a later time for MSK injuries. Although my opinions on why she reported injuries has no bearing on the case, feel they were financially motivated.

So a question for any of you who have been through something like this, is there a chance that I may NEVER be able to practice again? I am worried about the NEVER part. I am willing and happy to participate in whatever rehabilitation or monitoring may be mandated for me, I'm just hoping the licensing boards will allow me an opportunity show how earnest I am in my recovery and my desire to be a productive member of the PA community again

[austynmiller]

Also, I was reading the story of a trauma surgeon in CAwho was on call AND driving to the hospital when he crashed his car on the interstate and had a .24 BAC. All said and done he retained his license but was placed on probation which stipulated he participate in certain programs and monitoring. I feel (I hope) that this means there is a chance I might be a candidate for something similar.

[Kitana]

Hi Austyn, 

I am sorry to hear what you're going through.  As a midlevel myself, I know there are provisions afforded to certain medical professionals such as doctors and CRNAs that are not afforded to others.  You may have some chance of keeping your license, but the board is weighing whether they will suspend or revoke your license.  I don't understand why your lawyer is presenting the option of probation as it was not presented as an option when the board put in its recommendation for the next steps for you.  If you attempt to lie, omit, or conceal the truth, it only shows that you're not trustworthy and you may continue this pattern of behavior going forward.  Consider how the board looks at this for a moment:  if they give you this status (x amount of probation), you possibly relapse, and someone else comes to harm, it will not only be you under fire, but also the board as well as they allowed you to keep your license without suspending or revocation, making them look bad as well.   I can tell you now - they are not willing to share that spotlight with you.  The truth is, in the medical community, we are considered as valuable as a dime a dozen, and that is not very valuable in my opinion.  I personally know a PA-C who has a misdemeanor OVI, had it expunged (many years ago), and it STILL comes up when applying for jobs.  It shows up on their name search and MUST BE disclosed to employers.  Expungement does not apply to us unfortunately and if the charge is this new (2018-2019), you have absolutely ZERO chances that this will be wiped off of your record anytime in the near future. It will never go away and will follow you.  Your NPI number and any PA-C lookup for the state you are licensed in.  You can thank in part nurses for this, they were known for doing stuff in one state and simply moving to another with a clean slate, but would mess up or it would come to light about what they had done (look up the NURSYS system if you don't believe me).  When applying for any licensure, we must answer a series of questions that pertains to arrests, alcohol abuse, criminal convictions, reprimand by other state boards or licensure committees, as well as giving previous supervising physicians for the past x amount of years.  How will you be able to check "No" truthfully?  You have a greater than 1 year gap in your employment as a PA - how will you explain this (without lying)?  Why would employers pick you over someone with a clean record?  At this point you are considered a convicted felon - by the police and the medical board.  I don't think you should lose all hope, but you do need to have a backup plan in place for the worst case scenario.  Know that going forward, it will always be more difficult for you to get a job - you will always be exposed at the beginning process, and have to explain yourself thoroughly to employers.  I know it sucks, and again I am sorry this happened to you and that you have to go through this.  I hope that you have or plan to get counseling and family support to get you through this, the medical community has a blame and shame mentality when it comes to mistakes when NOBODY in this profession is perfect, and are often guilty of many of the same things that they accuse others of as well.  

[Cideous]

Can someone please explain to me exactly how making a bad decision to drive after drinking should result in taking away someones medical license and ability to feed themselves?

I am NOT defending DUI's.  Honestly, there should be hell to pay....but destroying ones livelihood?  I just don't get it.  

[Hope2PA]

13 hours ago, austynmiller said:

Also, I was reading the story of a trauma surgeon in CAwho was on call AND driving to the hospital when he crashed his car on the interstate and had a .24 BAC. All said and done he retained his license but was placed on probation which stipulated he participate in certain programs and monitoring. I feel (I hope) that this means there is a chance I might be a candidate for something similar.

There is a big difference for PA compared to MD, DO or NP. No matter what anyone says, each profession takes care of themselves. There may be few states more strict than others, but in general, each profession does best to care for their own.. Physicians discipline physicians, nurses discipline nurses. PA’s are disciplined by docs/medical boards. You  are not as important and your education is not as valuable.  As a PA, do not expect same leniency from medical board as may be afforded to physician. 

[6oo6le]

3 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

There is a big difference for PA compared to MD, DO or NP. No matter what anyone says, each profession takes care of themselves. There may be few states more strict than others, but in general, each profession does best to care for their own.. Physicians discipline physicians, nurses discipline nurses. PA’s are disciplined by docs/medical boards. You  are not as important and your education is not as valuable.  As a PA, do not expect same leniency from medical board as may be afforded to physician. 

THIS.  One of the main reasons why I'm choosing to step away from medicine in order to focus on Employment Law when I start law school soon.  

Edited January 20, 2020 by 6oo6le

[austynmiller]

Thank you Kitana for insight and information. I have contacted my attorney to discuss this with him. I have been applying for entry level type positions where I live such as front office, retail, customer service but all I know is how to be a PA. I literally have no other experience. Prior to going to PA school I was an EMT-I. What I am facing is just unimaginable. I am hoping that if CA decides to suspend or revoke my license I will be able to apply for license in GA showing all of the rehabilitation efforts I am making and pray that they have a more lenient board. Thank you all SO much for your participation in this discussion.

[sas5814]

On 1/16/2020 at 1:26 AM, rev ronin said:

orthogonal

you made me look up a word. I like words and generally think I'm pretty good with them but this was totally new to me. Please return to your normal programming.

 

[sas5814]

On 1/19/2020 at 8:37 AM, austynmiller said:

So a question for any of you who have been through something like this, is there a chance that I may NEVER be able to practice again?

Never is a very long time. I know/knew an ortho surgeon who spent 6 years in prison for Medicare fraud and selling prescriptions. He had an unrestricted license and full prescribing priveleges within a year of getting out and was operating when I last was anywhere near him and I should mention he was really an asshat..

If you keep doing the right thing(s) you will eventually be OK. How long is "eventually"? That is hard to say. I think most people and boards have an understanding of the human condition and take in the totality of the circumstances including accepting responsibility and taking corrective action.

Edited January 20, 2020 by sas5814
4th edit. Tired eyes and fat fingers

[sas5814]

19 hours ago, Cideous said:

Can someone please explain to me exactly how making a bad decision to drive after drinking should result in taking away someones medical license and ability to feed themselves?

This is just speculation but I think it goes to several possible points:

If you drink and drive and cause an accident are you coming to work drunk/hungover etc etc?

If your judgement is this impaired what about your medical judgement? I used to refer to this, tongue in cheek, as a judgement deficit disorder.

There is a presumption of professionalism and integrity in the medical professions. This doesn't suggest you have those characteristics in adequate amounts.

Public perception matters. We can't have evil doers among our professional selves.

So while I don't agree with destroying someone over something like this I do understand a licensing board giving some real stink eye to it.

Edited January 20, 2020 by sas5814

[Cideous]

2 hours ago, sas5814 said:

This is just speculation but I think it goes to several possible points:

If you drink and drive and cause an accident are you coming to work drunk/hungover etc etc?

If your judgement is this impaired what about your medical judgement? I used to refer to this, tongue in cheek, as a judgement deficit disorder.

There is a presumption of professionalism and integrity in the medical professions. This doesn't suggest you have those characteristics in adequate amounts.

Public perception matters. We can't have evil doers among our professional selves.

So while I don't agree with destroying someone over something like this I do understand a licensing board giving some real stink eye to it.

And I agree with you Scott, and I certainly don't know the specifics of this case but according to the poster this was his first DUI.  I know this may come as a shock to most people, but just about every single person I know has had something to drink, even a small amount, and drove afterwards.  Obviously the original poster was impaired and as I said earlier there should be hell to pay.  I just don't see the long term benefit of destroying someones life though by taking away their ability to provide for themselves and their family if they are a 1st offender.  People can recover from addiction and become productive members of society, but this scorched earth policy guarantees he will never recover.

[FiremedicMike]

50 minutes ago, Cideous said:

And I agree with you Scott, and I certainly don't know the specifics of this case but according to the poster this was his first DUI.  I know this may come as a shock to most people, but just about every single person I know has had something to drink, even a small amount, and drove afterwards.  Obviously the original poster was impaired and as I said earlier there should be hell to pay.  I just don't see the long term benefit of destroying someones life though by taking away their ability to provide for themselves and their family if they are a 1st offender.  People can recover from addiction and become productive members of society, but this scorched earth policy guarantees he will never recover.

Again, I don't think anyone is advocating for destroying someone's life, but the fact of the matter is that run of the mill OVI's are not elevated to the felony level without extenuating circumstances.  By the OPs admission, there was a crash involved and the other party ended up injured.  This wasn't just a PC stop that turned up an OVI, there was an actual crash and an actual injury.  By the own OPs admission, this was also a culmination of a substance abuse problem, and he also stated he spent 2 months in jail.  First time "run of the mill" OVI offenders get 3 days max, usually 0, not 2 months.. This was a significant event, not to be dismissed as "just a first time OVI"... 

PAs, NPs, Physicians, CRNAs, etc... are positions with an immense amount of responsibility and public trust.  The OP had a very significant lapse of judgement that injured another person by his own reckless behavior.  I'm OK with the idea that he has to jump through extra hoops in order to continue practicing.. 

 

[austynmiller]

sas5814 thank you for your post, that is what I was kind of hoping to hear. I know that I screwed up and should have to jump through hoops in order to regain even a semblance of what I have lost. I was just hoping to hear that there is hope. I made a huge mistake and have paid dearly in every aspect of my life. Unfortunately for someone with a substance abuse problem sometimes it takes this kind of loss in order to change. I certainly don't expect for my license to be handed back to me on a silver platter but I am hoping that with time and honest effort put in to my recovery that in the future I may have the opportunity to practice again. This has truly been a life altering experience. I have changed for the positive in so many ways and know that if I get the chance I will be such a better provider because of it.  I thank you all again for your posts!

[rpackelly]

Within the past ten years I know of a child pornography felony situation by a family doc.  He served four years and got his license back with 10 years probation.  I know a PA who got a new state license in another state, who served almost a year for Medicare fraud, and he had had a previous suspension prior for controlled drugs.  He was on probation for a year or so.  The results of all of these are so variable depending on the skill of the lawyer and the sympathy factor  and rehab status for the defendant.  There is never a “never” unless you die.  

[deltawave]

On 1/22/2020 at 8:57 AM, rpackelly said:

Within the past ten years I know of a child pornography felony situation by a family doc.  He served four years and got his license back with 10 years probation.  I know a PA who got a new state license in another state, who served almost a year for Medicare fraud, and he had had a previous suspension prior for controlled drugs.  He was on probation for a year or so.  The results of all of these are so variable depending on the skill of the lawyer and the sympathy factor  and rehab status for the defendant.  There is never a “never” unless you die.  

This... it’s all about how good your lawyer is and you keeping your nose clean in the interim. 
 

That’s just the way it is. 

[mliggett]

On 1/16/2020 at 12:39 AM, 6oo6le said:

After my shame of "being caught," I called up the same court that expunged my record and asked them "Why should I bother getting an expungement when I was just "caught in a lie so to speak?"  The response?  "Sorry to tell you but certain career fields aren't exempt from that - teaching, legal, and medical."  But what do I know?  Just a shameful past drunk with a record caught in a "lie."  Don't take my advice.  

This absolutely varies from state to state... I know for many states, by petitioning the courts to seal and/or expunge any previous convictions, this automatically allows someone to be able to check the 'no' box under these conditions at this time and ONLY under the condition where a future criminal act and/or act of violence is to be committed can these records be uncovered (and this only can be uncovered by law enforcement/government protection agencies/etc.) Additionally, by law, even in the event that records are uncovered I have read that it is in fact not legally allowed to be asked about... If this agency did in fact ask you about the record or held merit of the charge in order to prevent your hiring, they in fact had committed an illegal act at that point. 
What this all means? Sure, even if that is the case... you've got way too much work to do to prove this and litigate it at this point for 99.9% of workers to go through the process in showing this all took place, but on the books it's not allowed. 

However, I do know that its a pain in the ass to get everything not only expunged, but to go through the multiple levels of record keeping (and their connected bureaus/etc.) ultimately falls on the convicted to ensure that all levels of government records have done as they are supposed to in order to ensure that the records were, in fact, expunged or sealed as granted. 

'Expungement' is the entire destruction of the records, whereas sealing them is merely tucking them away into the depths of a basement somewhere in the event they are needed... Always reach for expungement in the event of petitioning the courts. 

 

Austyn -- not to pry, but was this a first offense DUI and/or were there any other charges associated? It just seems that a first offense is seldom charged as a felony, and even in the event the court initially charges a felony level, it can be knocked down.. But if other charges were connected, this could hold merit over the ultimate goal, as well... I'd likely think longer than 2 years may be required, but it all varies from state to state. 

On 1/13/2020 at 5:12 PM, austynmiller said:

Hi all! I have a question for anyone out there that may have experience with this personally or know a PA that has gone through something like this. I was convicted of felony DUI Oct 2018. I have been sober since then and am doing really well in that regard. My conviction is still under review with the board in CA. I had to do 2 months jail time and I am on 5 years probation. I have been attending AA regularly and keep record of it all. My attorney says I have a good chance at probation for my license as opposed to suspension or revocation. Anyone have experience with this type of situation? I have been practicing for 8 years and have excellent letters of recommendation from previous employer. I moved to GA and am hoping to apply for my license here once CA has decided what they will do. ANY input would be helpful! Thank you!

 

[austynmiller]

I just wanted to update all of you who were so gracious to participate in this discussion. I have been able to retain my CA license with 5 years probation, no restrictions. I have been able to acquire my GA license completely free and clear!   I am participating in a physician health program that does monitoring. I have petitioned the court to have my felony reduced to a misdemeanor. They came to the conclusion that it was too soon for a reduction but that they would consider it after I have done 2.5 yrs of my felony probation (Jan 2022). I am now applying for jobs in Georgia and it is very difficult having to explain the long gap in my employment as well as the felony. But I am trying to stay positive that the right job will come along and in the meantime I am doing CME's like crazy!

[kittryn]

On 1/13/2020 at 5:12 PM, austynmiller said:

Hi all! I have a question for anyone out there that may have experience with this personally or know a PA that has gone through something like this. I was convicted of felony DUI Oct 2018. I have been sober since then and am doing really well in that regard. My conviction is still under review with the board in CA. I had to do 2 months jail time and I am on 5 years probation. I have been attending AA regularly and keep record of it all. My attorney says I have a good chance at probation for my license as opposed to suspension or revocation. Anyone have experience with this type of situation? I have been practicing for 8 years and have excellent letters of recommendation from previous employer. I moved to GA and am hoping to apply for my license here once CA has decided what they will do. ANY input would be helpful! Thank you!

It might be worth a few hundred dollars to get a good GA attorney's input on your situation:

https://www.duigeorgia.com/dui-and-medical-licenses

[kittryn]

On 1/20/2020 at 5:43 PM, sas5814 said:

you made me look up a word. I like words and generally think I'm pretty good with them but this was totally new to me. Please return to your normal programming.

 

I liked that one, too