mednut83 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 This is an offer from a smaller company. I don't know if this is a bargaining tactic from them or if I should be considerate. I have only just viewed (and tried to figure out the legal lingo) of the contract offer that I asked them to email me and have not called them to discuss yet. The office staff is SUPER nice and I like the environment and we are looking into a buying a house that would be really close to the office. But I could use any advice on how to deal with negotiating or bringing up a non-competetive contract. Its a 2 year contract at $75000. Nothing in the contract about productive bonuses, etc. No call, no weekends, and although I am not absolute about the hours, I am pretty sure it will be under 40, but considered full time. 3 weeks vacation, but it does not roll over. They are covering mal-practice. I am staying on the health insurance on my husbands policy so they are not providing that. NO CME reimbursement. 'They will reinburse me only for such reasonable expenses that is pre-approved in writing, and which are incurred on Employer business. Expenses relating to continuing education and physician license renewal shall be borne by Employee unless otherwise agreed by Employer.'<o:p></o:p><o:p> I am confused about this section: </o:p>B. Employee acknowledges that, during Employee’s first year of employment with Employer, Employer shall incur and expend substantial time and expenses training Employee for which Employer will not begin to be reimbursed unless and until Employee has worked for Employer for at least 18 months. Accordingly, Employee agrees that Employee shall incur a reimbursement obligation to Employer of $1,500 per month for the first six months of employment with Employer, and $1,000 per month for the second six months of such employment (the “Reimbursement Obligation”). The Reimbursement obligation shall be due from Employee to Employer on the thirtieth (30th) day following the termination of Employee’s employment with Employer. The Reimbursement Obligation will be reduced by $1,000 per month for every full month beyond Employee’s first 18 months with Employer, and no Reimbursement Obligation will be due, and the Reimbursement Obligation will be forgiven in its entirety, if Employee works for Employer at least 24 months or if Employer terminates Employee’s employment without cause (as hereinafter defined) during the initial 24 months of employment. Any suggestions, etc would be GREATLY appreciated before I call the office manager to discuss as this is my first contract that I am dealing with. Thanks to all that are willing to put their two cents in. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanna.nola Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'm still a student, also in the process of seeking out employment soon, and I was curious if employers ever tried to make you "pay back" your training. I think I would run screaming from this. I mean, who knows if your work situation will be a good fit or not? Say you give it an earnest try and for some reason it does not work out. Say the doctor is a complete jerk. Say the extensive training they give you is actually not so extensive and you feel unsupported. Say you have a family emergency that requires you to relocate. Anything could happen. So say you stick it out for 12 months but thnk it isn't for you. You are trying to tell me that you would be willing to give them $15,000 (6 mos*$1,500+6 mos*$1,000) to leave? $21,000 after 18 months (but before 2 years)?? Yes an employer takes a risk by hiring you, but you take a risk also. If you leave after a year and they see it as a loss, that's the price of doing business. And not giving CME $$ shows you the value they place on education (all this talk of extensive training aside). You are saving them thousands by not requiring health insurance (a point of negotiation, I think). In fact,this "repayment" stuff does not seem entirely legal to me. You are an at-will employee. At-will means just as you can give notice and seek other employment, your employer can also fire you. I think you should have a lawyer go over this contract (maybe the AAPA can help if you are a member). Or you should move on to the next offer. There are better offers out there, and I think these folks do not value what you have to offer. Good luck in any case. (I'm crossing my fingers I won't have to contend with this kind of legalese!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 To be blunt this is a crap offer that only a desperate person would take. Typical low ball offer where the docs are trying to take advantage of PAs. I don't blame them as someone will probably end up taking this offer. 75k without health insurance and you pay them back for "training you." There is no way you will be able to negotiate this up to an acceptable level. Do yourself and the profession a favor and politely decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 Thanks for putting your two cents in, guys. I really do appreciate it. That's what I was thinking too when I first read the contract. I did talk with the office manager yesterday to clear things up before I 'reviewed it over the weekend'. I wouldnt be paying them to train me. Its more to protect them if I walk out on them without notice before my contract is up. As far as the CME goes, he was very open to talking about negotiating that since they werent paying health insurance (thanks for that idea, joanna!). The three weeks vacation is like PTO (and they dont work holidays anyway) so id have to use it for sick days, but he also said that as long as employees dont abuse it, they dont nickle and dime you or penalize you if you go over. essentially, if its the end of the year and youre sick, stay home and no problem. my husband works for a very family friendly, small business that works like this and he would take this any day over working for a little more pay but for a bigger company with all the beurocracy and thats where my struggle comes in. anyway, he brought up the $75k and said that it isnt the set and as the company moves, so will the pay. i asked about specifically re-evaluating in 6months after a training period and I am seeing more patients, etc. He was again very open to that but I am not sure what I should ask for as an increase at the 6 month point or yearly thereafter, etc. He said I could also do a lower salary and do a productivity bonus type pay instead, but am not sure which one is better. There was also nothing in there about 401K, retirement, etc. I forgot to ask but know that it is obviously a big deal and don't know how to go about it or where the deal-breaker should be. He did say that my hours are going to be extremely flexible and that is very attractive to me. Like I said, with no call, no weekends, no holidays, and non-stressful hours, I know I have to consider that, but I still need all your advice on how to bring up the important stuff like retirement, CME, or anything else I may be forgetting. Like Jason said, I want to stay true to our profession! I will have about a week to gather my info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I've started to see these "training reimbursement" clauses in new PA contracts. I find them absolutely baffling. One plastics guy in midtown Atlanta had the gall to try to convince one of my smartest grads (and incidentally very young and beautiful, but that's off-topic) that it was de rigeur for PA employment contracts. Thank God she ran it by me and I told her definitely NOT. She found something else. IMO these are predatory tactics by an insecure employer. Run far, run fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Oh forgot to mention, she would have had to pay $50k if she left before 1 yr and $25k if she left before 18 mos, then all forgiven after 24 mos. AND the first 6 mos "training period" was at half (lowball) salary and no benefits other than malpractice with q3 call (uncompensated of course!) Not even individual health insurance--and she has a chronic condition. SO glad she asked me, but I fear some other new grad will be desperate enough to fall for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanna.nola Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Another place you could contact is your program. That recent grad was lucky she contacted Primadonna. I'd get a lot of advice before you accept any offer. Do not be bullied into accepting after only a weekend of looking at the contract. Take a week or more if necessary. I have a question--are you the first PA they've ever hired? Being first brings its own set of issues, from what I've heard (something I'm def going to avoid in my first job). They might not have realistic expectations if you are the first. And I really, really think no PA should accept this "repayment for training" language. (In fact, since this seems to be a trend, I really think we need to push the AAPA to address this in some capacity..)You seem to not be so concerned with this. You said: "I wouldnt be paying them to train me. Its more to protect them if I walk out on them without notice before my contract is up." But who who will PROTECT YOU?? PA school came after another career for me and I learned you just never know when something is not going to work out with an employer. I know these people seem like "nice guys" but promises not in writing don't stand up in court. Which is exactly where you'll be if say these guys turn out to really be jerks and you are so fed up you have to leave before 2 years. 2 years is a long time to grin and bear it if you turn out to be miserable there. I know it seems like this place is great. But honestly, you just never know until you are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Well said Joanna.Nola. Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 27, 2012 Author Share Posted May 27, 2012 I believe they hired one other PA that just graduated that did a rotation with them. Obviously, I don't know what her contract said or what her story is. I totally understand the fact that they can 'say' anything, but if they get angry at whatever, its what is in writing that counts. I also know that it would look bad to directly say to have it removed because that makes it look like I plan on ditching them. My question is this... Knowing that I do really have a great interest in this position, what would make the contract a respectable offer for me? Obviously, I don't have other contracts or experience to go off of so I am relying and trusting on my fellow forum members to help me. I have been looking at other positions in case what I propose next week is not accepted and I need to walk away. Position is no call, no weekends, integrative Pain Management in the sububurbs of Chicago, 40 flexible hours a week (or less) and very close to home. once trained, will be working independently with the supervising doc off site. i also have the ability to do routine exams in spanish (i am not fluent enough to take on a new patient to do full histories, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 85k+ starting plus benefits is an acceptable offer. Not great but acceptable. 90k+ if no benefits but still considered an employee. If indepentent contractor needs to be much higher. Also consider do you really want to be in pain management right out of school? Very pigeonholed specialty so think about that. I would get that 2 year training clause out as well. Like Joana.Nola says 2 years is a long time and you will probably end up screwing yourself by trying to be nice now. Stick up for yourself and do what's best for you now and you won't regret this later. There will be other offers trust me on this. It might take some time but other offers will arise much better then this IF you have to walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 I really appreciate your honest input, Jason. Should I ask for 90K (seeing as I'm not taking health benefits from them) and thats it, or should I request even more after 6 months after training? What about raises thereafter? Or do you normally not have a problem with companies raising salary as time goes by? Also, although I did not ask, there was nothing in there about any type of retirement/401K benefit. If that is true, should I ask for even more as a base salary? As a new grad, I don't know where the line is for acceptable and greedy. You guys have been such a great help and I can't thank you enough for all of your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 here is what i started to come up with. i am going to assume they dont have retirement as nothing was in the contract about it... 80K + 25% of collections or 93K bc no health insurance overhead to cover and no 401K/retirement<o:p></o:p> 1500 CME coverage/yr and 5 CME days/yr, Pay state and AAPA dues, recertification every 5 yrs and license every 2.<o:p></o:p> Agree with malpractice coverage and 3 weeks worth of PTO.<o:p></o:p> Get rid of Reimbursement Obligation Clause (although I do not know how to bring this up without sounding like I want to be able to bail on them) Thoughts? Remember, new grad and told would be seeing about 25-30 pts a day once things get going and I'm trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 You haven't mentioned where in IL this job is...if it's Chicago it's low....if downstate...well downstate pays lower b/c cost of living is lower..and new grads make less....remember this, the jobs in IL are drying up as I type...our gov put a 66% tax on everyone's income and since 2011 our state has lost 200,000 jobs to neighboring states..those jobs are gone forever and I don't see businesses beating the path to start up in IL.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Your numbers are looking better now. I think 90K+ is not unreasonable. Just because you are a new grad does not mean you should expect a low salary. Remember, you still are a trained professional who is accepting liability. I don't know about you but PA school was no joke. The problem you will run into is getting your employers to come up on salary that much (which shows how low they were shooting in the first place). Stay strong and be ready to walk if need be. That is the ONLY way you will come out ahead. You can always ask for a review in 6 months for possible raise in the contract. I would definitely ask for retirement options as in 401k but I don't know if you'll get one. Tough to get everything you want to negotiate when the start offer is a crap offer. I would focus on salary and contribute to a roth IRA on your own. I highly doubt you will be at this place forever so focus on raising the big things first in my opinion. Just keep in mind you are not being "greedy." You are asking for an AVERAGE compensation, not even that high. I think the best thing you can do is have a list of things you want in the contract. Then have the list divided into MUST HAVES and WANTS. If any must haves are not met walk away. Then shoot for as many wants as possible. But remember, in order to have any chance at negotiating you have to be willing to walk away if things are not corrected. Then keep telling yourself there are other jobs out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 i think i put in one of my posts, but its in the suburbs of Chicago. Naperville; which is very upscale and not rural. here is the meat of my counter offer: please let me know what you think. I want to make sure that it isnt confrontational or unprofessional so i welcome anyone telling me to change something. thanks!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am excited about the offer you extended on May 22, 2012, and look forward to accepting it. I feel confident I will make a significant contribution to the growth and profitability of your company over the short and long term. I know you have not hired Physician Assistant’s in the past and have done extensive research before formulating this counter-offer. Upon investigation, the following changes will make the offer very acceptable.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Base Salary: $75,000 per annum <o:p></o:p> The research I've done on comparable salaries for a Physician Assistant show that a base salary of $75,000 would be very below the market value for this position/specialty. Based on the above, I would like you to consider a base salary of $80,000 + 25% of collections or $93,000 annually with an evaluation after 6 months to re-negotiate. I would be willing to consider either offer. Please also consider that I will be generating revenue while the supervising doctor is generating revenue elsewhere. My high organizational skills, focus, fabulous bedside manner, and determination in achieving daily goals can be a great asset to this company. I will also be able to generate revenue from established Spanish speaking patients by being able to communicate with them to do routine procedures.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Benefits Package: Malpractice coverage and 3 weeks paid vacation<o:p></o:p> In discussing the standard benefits package with you, I am pleased with the malpractice coverage and 3 weeks paid vacation. Upon further research of standard benefits for a Physician Assistant, I request that there be disability coverage, $1500 CME coverage/yr and 5 paid CME days/yr. In addition, I request that state and AAPA dues, recertification every 5 yrs, and license every 2 be included in the benefits package. I am also requesting that there be a 401K or type of retirement contribution either now or after my training period.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Reimbursement Obligation<o:p></o:p> Upon extensive consideration, I request that this aspect of the contract be eliminated in its entirety. The simple act of me relocating at my own expense within 15 minutes of my patients shows my dedication and commitment to this position. I understand that you are taking a risk, but I am taking a risk as well and it is not a standard clause for a Physician Assistant.<o:p></o:p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 This is for Naperville? Yikes!!...you're making what a nurse makes up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 the 75K they proposed? or the counter I gave? any suggestions to the counter offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason09 Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 "I would be willing to consider either offer. Please also consider that I will be generating revenue while the supervising doctor is generating revenue elsewhere. My high organizational skills, focus, fabulous bedside manner, and determination in achieving daily goals can be a great asset to this company. I will also be able to generate revenue from established Spanish speaking patients by being able to communicate with them to do routine procedures.>>" Take out fabulous bedside manner. I would all around re-word this. I wouldn't go too much into generating revenue because they will fire back "well we are taking time from generating to train you" or some other bull crap response. I would focus more on your positive attributes. Say something like I believe I can bring a lot of positive qualities to this practice. I am a highly focused, organized, and determined individual who is ready to tackle daily tasks needed to be successful. Or something like that. I will warn you that I highly doubt they will give in or give in without a big fight. So be ready, stand firm, and remember you are only asking for an AVERAGE salary so don't let them tell you otherwise. Let me know how this goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiaroscuro27 Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 I really appreciate threads like this. They help all of us who are in the process of negotiating contracts. To the OP, you've received some great advice. I really appreciate Jason's wise words. Don't forget your training and what you bring to a practice. You aren't doing favors, you are providing a service. Never settle for less than what you deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted May 29, 2012 Author Share Posted May 29, 2012 I have changed it to your wording. Thanks SO much. If no one else has any suggestions, I am going to send this tonight. If anything, this has been a great learning experience and if I need to walk away, so be it. But then I'll know what I need to look for in the future. I'll let you know what happens...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpackelly Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 In general attorneys are not my favorite people, but in terms of negotiating a two year contract with a possible large “clawback”, you really do need one. Just think, would a physician sign a contract like that without consulting with an attorney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 UPDATE: you know the counter I gave... They said they would increase to 80K with a re-eval at 6 mon and 1 yr. And that as the company grows, they dont mind rewarding efforts (but just left it at that). Malpractice coverage and 3 weeks PTO stays. They would add $1500 CME, but no CME days. And they would take out the 'reimbursement obligation' and replace it with a 1 yr contract and a statement that I would have to give them 30 days notice if I leave. That is the extent of the details of the contract/benefits.... Meanwhile, I went to another interview for another pain management place that has a few clinics and a surgery center. I wasnt jumpy for joy and some extended commute times for the further clinics, but liked the fact that i'd get a change in environment and get to help with procedures. Their offer was only 65K (yeah, now 80K wasnt sounding so bad) for the first 90 days. once I 'fly solo' at 90 days, they would raise it to 75K. They give 3.25% annual raises regardless and he said the doc usually throws in some type of bonus at xmas (its a smaller company). They cover CME-the doc is all about the education aspect-and 5 CME days, 401K plan, $300 in 'gas money', 2 wks vacation and 1 wk sick leave. after a year, they also implement a 10% (but as high as 20%) bonus for anything over 2x the collections of whatever im making. I had mentioned my concern with the low starting number because of my loans and car payment. the manager had said that if i joined on, after 90 days they could possibly 'throw some other things on the table' to help me out, but wouldnt specify more. this was all verbal and didnt see an actual contract to see any 'hidden' components.. obviously, it kind of sounds like no brainer, but im still looking for feedback for anyone who's had experience. both places are trying to sell the fact that they are family friendly with day time working hours and no weekends/holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 This is the reason the NPs get the offer...they are willing to take the low ball....knowing they can get the experience, their education cost a fraction of ours, they have a powerful union to do their dirty work (wink wink), and they can go out and eventually work independently anyway...IOW, make as much or as little as they want..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanna.nola Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 What did you end up deciding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mednut83 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 I walked. They kept telling me that 80k was more than fair, etc and I felt like I was talking to a wall when I tried to explain that it could be if they offered benefits to back it up. They had a no-compete clause in the contract, and they wouldnt budge about offering a compromise due to them not offering retirement, nor would they budge about me having to take my own vacation time or personal weekend or night time to do CME....so the only perk this job had in the end was the location, but I've had numerous calls for interviews since and my current elective rotation wants to 'recruit' me in so I think I definately made the right decision following everyone's advise here. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.