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Guest Coolforcats13

BTW - constantly quoting someone is bad form on the internet. 

also- your signature states you have 31 years experience in emergency medicine. that means when you started that, I was 1 year old. my friend. 

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Guest Coolforcats13
6 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

I am guessing I am younger than you , so you will retire first my friend.

guessed wrong. 

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31 minutes ago, Coolforcats13 said:

 

My evidence that the classes are vastly different comes directly from the program websites themselves, and an AMA from an actual online PA student. for example:

Average GPA:            Traditional: 3.79 (3.29- 4.0)     Online:  no average  (3.35–3.77)  

no one in the 2020 class had 3.0 gpas, the lowest GPA for that class was 3.29.  if you know anything about statistics, you can gather from this evidence that the average GPA for the online students are going to be way lower than 3.79. I would guess somewhere about 3.5. 

The average age of the online cohort is 35. the average PA program age is 26. The traditional yale program doesn't give an average age, but I would be floored if it was 35. you said that you have three students who are 22, and three who are 30's/40's, so the average age would have to be way lower than 35.

The evidence that class is almost exclusively parents is from an online student who gave an AMA. almost all programs have some parents, as your class seems to have, but to have almost all the students be parents is unheard of. This makes the online cohort, in many ways, the most diverse class I have ever heard of. hope you like the evidence you asked for. 

while I admit that my initial thoughts on why the traditional students are opposing the online program doesn't apply to all students, and may be inaccurate,  entitlement is real whether or not you want to admit it, and it is playing a role in this argument. Basic psychology of the out group/in group, and all that goes with it has fueled turf wars on MDs Vs. PAs,  PAs Vs. NPs, and now Online Vs. Traditional. You can be rude on this forum all you want, but neither of you has given actual evidence as to why the online program won't work. Just because the program won't be exactly like your program is not a valid reason to oppose it. If I was a yale student, I would be proud to go to such an innovative school. 

I'm not following this logic of the class being diverse. If anything it's not diverse if almost all the students are parents. A unique PA class profile, but not diverse in the slightest.

Another big question mark about the program is the clinical education. The program supposedly finds preceptors around the country for its students. How effective these preceptors are is beyond me. The true value of an older, traditional program (imo) is not its didactic education, but its clinical education. These programs build solid relationships with the preceptors and know the quality of teaching they will provide the students from years of student feedback. For all I know, an online student's preceptor could be in that role for the first time. Sure the online program can (and probably will) post a high PANCE rate, but how effective will its students be in their first job? Only time can tell, but I don't see how you cannot be just a bit skeptical of this program.

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16 minutes ago, Coolforcats13 said:

 

I'll still wait for actual evidence. I'm more concerned about meeting patient needs than how we compare to NPs. This is pretty sad. 

 

One does not exclude the other. As my dad would say "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

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Guest Coolforcats13
Just now, Aware said:

I'm not following this logic of the class being diverse. If anything it's not diverse if almost all the students are parents. A unique PA class profile, but not diverse in the slightest.

Another big question mark about the program is the clinical education. The program supposedly finds preceptors around the country for its students. How effective these preceptors are is beyond me. The true value of an older, traditional program (imo) is not its didactic education, but its clinical education. These programs build solid relationships with the preceptors and know the quality of teaching they will provide the students from years of student feedback. For all I know, an online student's preceptor could be in that role for the first time. Sure the online program can (and probably will) post a high PANCE rate, but how effective will its students be in their first job? Only time can tell, but I don't see how you cannot be just a bit skeptical of this program.

sorry didn't mean to quote you but i'm tired: 

it's diverse in that the people going are very different from a traditional PA student.

they are trying to educate outstanding students who might not otherwise be able to attend a PA school. 

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2 hours ago, Coolforcats13 said:

BTW - constantly quoting someone is bad form on the internet. 

also- your signature states you have 31 years experience in emergency medicine. that means when you started that, I was 1 year old. my friend. 

ahh, ok. ina different post you said something about years as a "professional educator before I decided to become a PA" , so I assumed older....my bad. I am really not part of the older generation of PAs trying to drag us back to 1970. I was a founding member of PAFT (look it up if you do not know what that is) and had significant input into designing the OTP proposal that was later accepted by the AAPA. It is only on the topic of online education and students without HCE that I have more traditional opinions.

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3 hours ago, Coolforcats13 said:

 

My evidence that the classes are vastly different comes directly from the program websites themselves, and an AMA from an actual online PA student. for example:

Average GPA:            Traditional: 3.79 (3.29- 4.0)     Online:  no average  (3.35–3.77)  

no one in the 2020 class had 3.0 gpas, the lowest GPA for that class was 3.29.  if you know anything about statistics, you can gather from this evidence that the average GPA for the online students are going to be way lower than 3.79. I would guess somewhere about 3.5. 

The average age of the online cohort is 35. the average PA program age is 26. The traditional yale program doesn't give an average age, but I would be floored if it was 35. you said that you have three students who are 22, and three who are 30's/40's, so the average age would have to be way lower than 35.

The evidence that class is almost exclusively parents is from an online student who gave an AMA. almost all programs have some parents, as your class seems to have, but to have almost all the students be parents is unheard of. This makes the online cohort, in many ways, the most diverse class I have ever heard of. hope you like the evidence you asked for. 

while I admit that my initial thoughts on why the traditional students are opposing the online program doesn't apply to all students, and may be inaccurate,  entitlement is real whether or not you want to admit it, and it is playing a role in this argument. Basic psychology of the out group/in group, and all that goes with it has fueled turf wars on MDs Vs. PAs,  PAs Vs. NPs, and now Online Vs. Traditional. You can be rude on this forum all you want, but neither of you has given actual evidence as to why the online program won't work. Just because the program won't be exactly like your program is not a valid reason to oppose it. If I was a yale student, I would be proud to go to such an innovative school. 

 

 

 

 

 

No one is being rude. I was just pointing out the fallacies/conjecture in your statements from the perspective of someone who was there from the time the idea was conceived through when the online program came to be. It’s funny that you would assume I oppose the program, because I don’t. You make everyone in the traditional program out to be priviledged stuck up a$$holes when you make statments like “they are jealous and indignent”, “They think that they earned theirplace at Yale and the online students have not”, etc. It doesn’t move the dialogue forward, and it stereotypes an entire group of people whom you have never interacted with before (except perhaps on forums like this). It couldn’t be further from the truth (atleast from my experience with the three classes I am most familiar with from graduating and precepting). 

 

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These programs are here to stay. The students will pass PANCE - and if medical schools are a functional example, self directed learners do better on exit exams. The graduates will find employment across the entire nation with the same relative ease as every other PA. The majority of hiring managers do not care about and will not ask about online programs. Graduates will not emblazon the top of their resume with the word "online".  Graduates will occasionally choose to emphasize being a Yale graduate while remaining immersed in the culture of the local community to which they are applying. They are a natural hire for the organizations they will have rotated through across the entire country, as opposed to cloistered about some med school like so many monks.

Please consider concerns expressed here regarding regarding "total hours" spent in the physical exam lab in context. Think for a moment what learning medicine was like 30 years ago. MRI's were not widely available. Statins had not yet been invented. Metformin wasn't available in the US. PCR not developed. How much cell biology do you exactly think was understood? What laboratory results do you think the average lab was capable of providing in under 8 hours? Can you imagine how stark the hospital formulary must have appeared?

To be frank - those students had to spend their days, weeks, and months in physical exam - there honestly wasn't much else available to them. Physical exam maneuvers, by the way, many of which have been shell shocked by modern investigations, largely revealed to produce results equivalent to guessing.  By some estimates, the knowledge bank required to practice medicine grows exponentially every 5 years. This is why PA/NP residencies exist today and will be required in the near future when the PA of the 60's graduated from an associates program.

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On 8/28/2018 at 3:02 PM, EMEDPA said:

It is on their degree: 

the online program is a physician assistant program

the in-person program is still called physician associate. 

their plan for on-campus physical exam courses, etc is not adequate. we spent 16 weeks on the physical exam course. they have it slotted for ONE week. we spent 1 week on just the neuro exam...

It seems no matter how many times facts about this program are addressed you still come on here and say the same things you said before... We do not spend "one" week on physical exam. We have a patient assessment class throughout the entire didactic year. That's 48 weeks. We spend 4 hours EACH WEEK in clinic practicing our physical exam skills on patients with board certified providers. We went to campus and DEMONSTRATED our skills.

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you spend 40 hours on campus working on physical exam skills with program faculty. true or false? 

you spend 4 hrs/week shadowing someone in clinic. very different. 

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On 8/29/2018 at 2:53 PM, Guest Coolforcats13 said:

The average age of the online cohort is 35. the average PA program age is 26. The traditional yale program doesn't give an average age, but I would be floored if it was 35. you said that you have three students who are 22, and three who are 30's/40's, so the average age would have to be way lower than 35.

The evidence that class is almost exclusively parents is from an online student who gave an AMA.

 

 

 

 

Our average age is 35 because our average PCE is twice the national average. That's a good thing.

Also, that was me who did that AMA, and I never said we are almost exclusively parents.

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6 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

you spend 40 hours on campus working on physical exam skills with program faculty. true or false? 

you spend 4 hrs/week shadowing someone in clinic. very different. 

1) False

2) We don't shadow, a person who shadows just watches, we perform exams and more

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so how long is your on campus course dedicated specifically to physical diagnosis? several folks on here besides me have already referenced the "week on campus for PE". the entire on campus experience is 15 days per the program site with 10 of them early in the program and also includes A+P with dissection( a fairly intense class on its own when done over a semester almost everywhere else).

Is there an on-campus requirement?

Yes, students must attend three immersion experiences at the main campus located in New Haven, Connecticut. These immersions will allow students to develop hands-on clinical skills, work in small groups, and meet classmates and faculty in person. Students also work in the Yale School of Medicine simulation lab and participate in cadaver dissection.

The immersions last five days and typically run Monday through Friday from 8 AM to 5 PM daily with open lab time available Monday to Thursday evening. The first immersion occurs near the middle of the first semester of the didactic year, the second immersion occurs near the end of the didactic year and the third immersion occurs just prior to program completion

I am sure you do a bit during your shadowing experience, but you don't understand how rotations work yet if you think you will have someone by your side every minute correcting your technique, etc. That only happens in a CLASSROOM. 

Also , "board certified clinicians" can vary considerably in skill. Instructors in a classroom(and yes they vary) at least are teaching directly from a text, like Bates physical diagnosis and expect you to follow those guidelines not "the way I do it". 

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16 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

so how long is your on campus course dedicated specifically to physical diagnosis? several folks on here besides me have already referenced the "week on campus for PE". the entire on campus experience is 15 days per the program site with 10 of them early in the program and also includes A+P with dissection( a fairly intense class on its own when done over a semester almost everywhere else).

Is there an on-campus requirement?

Yes, students must attend three immersion experiences at the main campus located in New Haven, Connecticut. These immersions will allow students to develop hands-on clinical skills, work in small groups, and meet classmates and faculty in person. Students also work in the Yale School of Medicine simulation lab and participate in cadaver dissection.

The immersions last five days and typically run Monday through Friday from 8 AM to 5 PM daily with open lab time available Monday to Thursday evening. The first immersion occurs near the middle of the first semester of the didactic year, the second immersion occurs near the end of the didactic year and the third immersion occurs just prior to program completion

I am sure you do a bit during your shadowing experience, but you don't understand how rotations work yet if you think you will have someone by your side every minute correcting your technique, etc. That only happens in a CLASSROOM. 

Also , "board certified clinicians" can vary considerably in skill. Instructors in a classroom(and yes they vary) at least are teaching directly from a text, like Bates physical diagnosis and expect you to follow those guidelines not "the way I do it". 

 

Guess we'll just have to prove you wrong in practice since theory isn't enough.

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43 minutes ago, PAlife91 said:

 

Guess we'll just have to prove you wrong in practice since theory isn't enough.

Exactly, now you get it. Just like the first PAs had to prove themselves, you will have to also given the significant differences in your training compared to traditional programs. That doesn’t mean you won’t be successful, I’m hoping you will be. But you will have your fair share of skeptics, as you most certainly should, and should take their concerns seriously as well. 

Edited by marktheshark89

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4 hours ago, marktheshark89 said:

Exactly, now you get it. Just like the first PAs had to prove themselves, you will have to also given the significant differences in your training compared to traditional programs. That doesn’t mean you won’t be successful, I’m hoping you will be. But you will have your fair share of skeptics, as you most certainly should, and should take their concerns seriously as well. 

exactly, especially if the AAPA comes out against distance education next year, which I truly hope they will (but think they probably won't).

maybe if this works Yale will start an online medschool only requiring I be on campus for 4 weeks out of 4 years. when that happens, sign me up!

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