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37 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

I understand what you're trying to say, but to assume race doesn't have anything to do with one's advantages and disadvantages in life I think is incorrect. Additionally, as per what's written above, not every program uses a holistic approach. But you're right in that many programs do, and those are the ones worth applying to for those who have faced significant disadvantages in life.

It absolutely does, but to collectively group all people of one race and assume that they all suffered through similar experiences is erroneous and why affirmative action is flawed. Programs like NY state's EOP is what should be emulated. It essentially grants students admission to a school even if they don't necessarily qualify academically, but are socioeconomically disadvantaged (which a large portion, but not all minorities are) and show potential to succeed. I feel like we agree on the same thing, but are just arguing about syntax, so I'm just gonna leave it at this...

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Guest HopefulPA329
2 hours ago, daydreamy said:

As a white person, the least I can do is recognize my privilege and educate other folks who may be blind to systemic racism. It's an atrocity that folks need to own up to and actively work to change rather than ignore, in my opinion. That photo you shared is horrifying. While most folks may not be so blatantly ignorant and discriminatory today (wait... white nationalists are alive and well, but you know what I mean) many still reproduce internalized racism and misogyny in ways that are much more discrete, but just as harmful.

As future medical providers we need to understand this. Black people are statistically more likely to die and suffer from chronic pain because their healthcare providers do not believe them. Always always always ask yourself why. Why am I ordering this? Why am I second guessing this persons symptoms? Am I providing the same medical care I would for my favorite person in this entire world? Oh yeah and... we definitely need more black and brown healthcare providers. So when you future PA's are sitting on admissions boards, maybe consider putting up a fight for those who are most often ignored. Just a thought ❤️

Good luck this cycle, @HopefulPA329, and everyone else who has to fight a fight that is unknown to or underappreciated by most of us applicants.

Honestly, I'm surprised to see PA students on here who do not understand this topic and have not taken time to educate themselves.  Thanks for being culturally aware. You're going to be a great PA! ? 

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1 minute ago, Aware said:

It absolutely does, but to collectively group all people of one race and assume that they all suffered through similar experiences is erroneous and why affirmative action is flawed. Programs like NY state's EOP is what should be emulated. It essentially grants students admission to a school even if they don't necessarily qualify academically, but are socioeconomically disadvantaged (which a large portion, but not all minorities are) and show potential to succeed. I feel like we agree on the same thing, but are just arguing about syntax, so I'm just gonna leave it at this...

???? Appreciate the recognition ?

I'll look into that program!

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11 hours ago, HopefulPA329 said:

I don’t get your purpose of mentioning Ben Carson because he didn’t even attend an HBCU- he went to Yale for undergrad, then went to the University of Michigan for med school.

You are absolutely correct, I was referring to his opinion on how he felt affirmative action affected his prospects following school, I should have been more clear.  

6 hours ago, HopefulPA329 said:

For Ket131 to discredit HBCUs and imply that the students there don't have merit and only get in for their pigmentation is sad.

Sorry if it came off that way it is not what I meant, but you can take it that way if you wish.  I was referring to the people being stereotyped rather than lack of merit.  I thought I made that pretty clear but I guess not based on all the negative reactions?  However, part of sharing an opinion is to risk being offensive in some way shape or form intentional or not.  Also the comment I made about pigmentation you very clearly took out of context, go back and reread for clarity.  

Sad to see that in 1959 those types of letters were written, but I am not surprised.  My grandfather was refused purchase of homes and cars etc by white salesmen around the same time so this sort of thing just does not surprise me.  I would be surprised if this was written in 2018.

6 hours ago, HopefulPA329 said:

This time around, I applied to schools with a holistic approach, and I applied to an HBCU. Hopefully it works out for me this time around.  

I don't think I ever came across a program that did not have a holistic approach to their admissions process, but I only researched schools in Minnesota, Washington, California, Florida, Arizona and New Mexico.  I hope it works out for you too.

53 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

to assume race doesn't have anything to do with one's advantages and disadvantages in life I think is incorrect.

I don't agree.  Attributing to an individual the characteristics of a group as if by some means the group is homogeneous is more or less the definition of racism.  

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Just now, Ket131 said:

You are absolutely correct, I was referring to his opinion on how he felt affirmative action affected his prospects following school, I should have been more clear.  

Sorry if it came off that way it is not what I meant, but you can take it that way if you wish.  I was referring to the people being stereotyped rather than lack of merit.  I thought I made that pretty clear but I guess not based on all the negative reactions?  However, part of sharing an opinion is to risk being offensive in some way shape or form intentional or not.  Also the comment I made about pigmentation you very clearly took out of context, go back and reread for clarity.  

Sad to see that in 1959 those types of letters were written, but I am not surprised.  My grandfather was refused purchase of homes and cars etc by white salesmen around the same time so this sort of thing just does not surprise me.  I would be surprised if this was written in 2018.

I don't think I ever came across a program that did not have a holistic approach to their admissions process, but I only researched schools in Minnesota, Washington, California, Florida, Arizona and New Mexico.  I hope it works out for you too.

I don't agree.  Attributing to an individual the characteristics of a group as if by some means the group is homogeneous is more or less the definition of racism.  

Racism is systemic ? but okay. I mean, do you remember learning about slavery? How about immigration laws lately? You think that stuff gets solved over night? Is that why white nationalists are emboldened today and kill black trans women at alarming rates and black and brown folks face harsher and longer sentences than their white counterparts? Idk, live your privileged life girl, just maybe consider doing a little bit of research. Systemic racism is so real today that even Ben & Jerry's wrote an article about it ??? jus sayin.

https://www.benjerry.com/home/whats-new/2016/systemic-racism-is-real

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5 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

Racism is systemic ? but okay. I mean, do you remember learning about slavery?

Racism is a real thing, but it being systemic?  No.  I would not be here if it were.  Did slavey happen?  Yes.  

6 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

How about immigration laws lately?

Well, I am first generation and as far as I know laws have not changed, with exception to their enforcement.  

8 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

Idk, live your privileged life girl, just maybe consider doing a little bit of research.

I'm a dude.  Ditto? 

9 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

Systemic racism is so real today that even Ben & Jerry's wrote an article about it ??? jus sayin.

No argument is ever won by using Ben and Jerry's ice-cream as a reference.  At least don't do this in school, please, for your sake.

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2 hours ago, daydreamy said:

As a white person, the least I can do is recognize my privilege and educate other folks who may be blind to systemic racism. It's an atrocity that folks need to own up to and actively work to change rather than ignore, in my opinion. That photo you shared is horrifying. While most folks may not be so blatantly ignorant and discriminatory today (wait... white nationalists are alive and well, but you know what I mean) many still reproduce internalized racism and misogyny in ways that are much more discrete, but just as harmful.

As future medical providers we need to understand this. Black people are statistically more likely to die and suffer from chronic pain because their healthcare providers do not believe them. Always always always ask yourself why. Why am I ordering this? Why am I second guessing this persons symptoms? Am I providing the same medical care I would for my favorite person in this entire world? Oh yeah and... we definitely need more black and brown healthcare providers. So when you future PA's are sitting on admissions boards, maybe consider putting up a fight for those who are most often ignored. Just a thought ❤️

Good luck this cycle, @HopefulPA329, and everyone else who has to fight a fight that is unknown to or underappreciated by most of us applicants.

Thank you for this response. This post has truly frightened me on how some individuals who are actual PA students at this very moment don't realize this! I hope the admission committees add additional questions to eye the students who don't recognize this. I've completed several research projects on how minorities feel about the health care system of today and trust is constantly an issue. Especially since some minorities are taught not to trust providers who are not from their same ethnic background due to incidents such as the Tuskegee experiments. 

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Discussion is largely irrelevant as there is no baseline for the applicant pool that does not represent the population as a whole. Literally everything will be anecdotal. In my class for instance Asians (whole continent, not just the Pacific rim) are grossly overrepresented compared to the general population (local and national), but so are women. But I don't have any data concerning the applicants, so it is impossible to determine any relationship between application/acceptance.

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15 minutes ago, Ket131 said:

Racism is a real thing, but it being systemic?  No.  I would not be here if it were.  Did slavey happen?  Yes.  

Well, I am first generation and as far as I know laws have not changed, with exception to their enforcement.  

I'm a dude.  Ditto? 

No argument is ever won by using Ben and Jerry's ice-cream as a reference.  At least don't do this in school, please, for your sake.

Okay you being a dude makes a lot more sense. I was simply providing you an additional-additional resource to show you just how relevant and important this topic is, but I am not going to sit here and do your research for you. There's plenty out there (thank God for google!). Continue being ignorant all you want, but one day history will catch up with you. I hope, for your sake, that you wake up sooner than later and see just how relevant black and brown people's existence is.

16 minutes ago, prepa1997 said:

Thank you for this response. This post has truly frightened me on how some individuals who are actual PA students at this very moment don't realize this! I hope the admission committees add additional questions to eye the students who don't recognize this. I've completed several research projects on how minorities feel about the health care system of today and trust is constantly an issue. Especially since some minorities are taught not to trust providers who are not from their same ethnic background due to incidents such as the Tuskegee experiments. 

Right? I'm scared, too. Your points are so valid! If you want to, I'd be interested in reading any of your research. I work with the poor and houseless community in my area, which mostly consists of people of color, and have definitely witnessed this first-hand.

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5 minutes ago, healthcare3o0 said:

I had to log on just to say this. 

Is systematic oppresion real? Yes. 
Is there specifically oppresion based off of race? No
Are PA admissions racist? Probably Not

 

I have seen first hand the difference between someone born into a "middle class" family vs a "paycheck to paycheck" family. One person has a family that is supporting them and paying for school expenses, while the other has to work part time during undergrad to eat. Who do you think has the better chance at getting great grades? That is where most of the problem is. 

I understand the concern of not getting in because of race (the average PA student is a white 25 yo female), however, I find excitement in the way pa schools select students. They focus on accomplishments, not who you know, or what you look like. Having schools choose show priority to minorities is dangerous to the profession. The profession is still young in terms of legislation and representation, we can not afford to produce underqualified applicants based off of irrelevent factors. 

I agree with the last portion of this statement. At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the school to choose who they feel is the best applicant that will ultimately make the best student, best clinician. What each school considers varies of course. Producing the best PA’s that will provide the best patient care is what matters. Some schools use a holistic approach and some schools have an average GPA of a 3.75. 

I know when I filled out my CASPA and supplementals, I was asked multiple times if I came from a disadvantage background or if there were any extenuating circumstances that affected my academics. I also have seen many schools include the word “diversity” into their mission statements. This would at least lead me to believe that schools pay attention to those sorts of things. But what do I know. 

Everyone in life has circumstances beyond their control that affect their ability to succeed..financial situations, family life, death of loved ones, mental health issues, accidents, etc. I do believe that extenuating circumstances should be taken into account, but not based on whether or not you’re a minority. EVERYONE has struggles. 

Sometimes in life we don’t get the things we want or feel we deserve..no matter how hard we try or how hard we work for them. I’m sure we’ve all experienced that at one time or another. That’s just life. Should you not be getting an equal chance because of race? Absolutely not. But equality demands the notion that everyone is held to the same standard. From an admissions standpoint..viewing race independently from the rest of the application allows for this equality for ALL. At least in my opinion. 

My dad grew up in Texas and was from a family who couldn’t afford air conditioning. He worked extremely hard for everything he has, paid his own way through college, and has told me many stories about barely having money to eat to encourage me to work my very hardest. 

I don’t mean to ruffle any feathers because at the end of the day we all want the same thing..equality for everyone. It takes a lot of hard work to even get to the point of applying. Good luck to all who are applying! 

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Man, I had to log on just to reply to the last two responses. The sentence that stated “having schools show priority to minorities is dangerous,” and “we cannot afford to produce under qualified applicants,” is hard to read. Are there not minimum standards for every school? Who said anything about taking a random person off the street and accepting them into PA school solely based on color? This is about creating an equal playing field for applicants that meet those minimal standards. Yes we all have struggles but, imagine all those struggles with the addition of being discriminated against because of your skin color. I agree that we are all saying similar things but living it and reading about the struggles of someone is completely different. I am one that has been blessed and cannot speak on a lot of these struggles but I certainly can empathize with those struggles. That being said, I believe a lot of schools recognize this, and are trying to make a difference. 

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“having schools show priority to minorities is dangerous,” and “we cannot afford to produce underqualified applicants,”

What message are these two statements saying about minorities?

Associating minorities with being underqualified is the message. This mentality is why minorities are underrepresented in medicine or any other professional positions. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been said. 

 

 

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Guest HopefulPA329
1 hour ago, NikkiPA20 said:

Man, I had to log on just to reply to the last two responses. The sentence that stated “having schools show priority to minorities is dangerous,” and “we cannot afford to produce under qualified applicants,” is hard to read. Are there not minimum standards for every school? Who said anything about taking a random person off the street and accepting them into PA school solely based on color? This is about creating an equal playing field for applicants that meet those minimal standards. Yes we all have struggles but, imagine all those struggles with the addition of being discriminated against because of your skin color. I agree that we are all saying similar things but living it and reading about the struggles of someone is completely different. I am one that has been blessed and cannot speak on a lot of these struggles but I certainly can empathize with those struggles. That being said, I believe a lot of schools recognize this, and are trying to make a difference. 

EXACTLY!! Just because someone has a GPA slightly lower than a 3.5 does not mean they're "under qualified". Like you said, every school has minimum standards, which is usually a 3.0 or even a 2.75 at some programs. If you meet the standards, you meet the dang standards. Point blank... What annoys me the most is seeing a PA program's standard read "3.0 minimum GPA", but then when you look at their class profile, the minimum GPA they accepted was like a 3.6 ?.  That is not an accurate representation of a holistic approach and it kind of feels like false advertisement. It gives false hope to those who are trying their best.

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This may be of interest, from PAEA and apparently using CASPA data; demonstrates both race/ethnicity as a whole and gives GPA and GRE breakdowns including applicants vs. matriculants.

Overall trends related to this topic, minorities are underrepresented and also have overall lower GPA and GRE scores.

Data missing that would be of interest is who actually gets interviews vs matriculants. i.e. are minorities being underrepresented because of academics, or because of interviews, or both, and how much?

If because of academics, that is a tough egg to crack and involves K-12 and undergrad institutions, if because of interviews, that is more easily remedied (I say that because of the other applicants I encountered during my interviews, everyone was "qualified" and it seemed like basically a toss up at that point).

https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applicant-and-Matriculant-Data-from-CASPA.pdf

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Also worth mentioning in the grand debate that I think gets missed sometimes, is "how do we proceed?"

It can be strongly argued and I think is generally accepted that minorities are underrepresented as a whole in society (economic, education, leadership) due to historic blatant racism (the aforementioned letter that someone posted; and my own father telling me that his black friend was denied officer training school because he was a "negro," well after military desegregation, as pretty powerful testament). Even if racism (conscious and subconscious) was magically obliterated today, poverty being overrepresented in minorities would still exist, and is still a detriment that will take many generations to equilibrate. 

So, the question then is... how do we proceed? Is it enough that we do everything possible to remove race (and racism from being detriments) so that race alone isn't a factor in someone's "success?" I think most enlightened folks would agree that yeah that is a good start; and/or, and it is a very big and/or; do we do even more, and create an advantage for minorities, making minority race itself favorable in an attempt to "undo" past racism at a detriment to the present majority? That is where the heated discussions seem to start. 

More simply, do we just eliminate race from the equation and let it balance itself over time, or do we forcibly correct the equation by actually injecting a counterbalance of race into it? And even if the answer is yes, then "how much?"

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22 minutes ago, SERENITY NOW said:

This is clearly a very controversial topic and I think that both sides honestly make good points.  The one thing that I am struggling to understand, however, is how it is okay for academic institutions to pick and choose which minorities they are going to help, and which they are going to hurt in the admission process that takes race into account.  Asian americans are well documented to have "anti-affirmative action"... for any given application metric you use (SAT, ACT, GPA, etc) they are significantly less likely to be accepted than white students or other minorities with an equivalent application.  One study found that to have an equivalent chance of being accepted as african american applications, asian american students would need to have an ACT score 7 points higher.  i.e. a score of 34 vs 27.  If anyone could shed light on this, I'd appreciate it.

I am pretty sure this study came out of Princeton if I remember correctly, but I have also read similar articles in the past on the Pew Research Center website.  I think this study was also included in a book but I can remember the name of it, something like "No longer separate and not equal OR not equal and separate."  I can PM you if I remember. 

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In regards to fixing the issue, I think programs should be interested in the applicant as a person above all else. The best healthcare providers I've ever had were those who tailored their medical care to my personal needs, rather than trying to put me in a box. I'm not saying that categories are necessarily a bad thing, I just think that, in most cases, there don't have to be hard and fast rules to one's approach to medical care. Black and brown folks face very different experiences than white folks within the working class, middle class, etc. This stuff is important to have a basic understanding of, and then building from that you can take into account personal statements and interviews.

I know folks want things to be crystal clear. Like.. give me these guidelines and I'll follow them. But life is much more complicated than that. We, as individuals, are much more complicated than that. We really need to get together and figure this out frame by frame, taking into consideration trends amongst all walks of life. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it would benefit us as a society and as people to put in the effort to ensure equality for all. How does this look concretely? Joining PA organizations and forming caucuses that address these issues while challenging the status quo. Implementing policy that benefits folks  fairly. Encouraging schools to be more aware of their admissions cut-offs. Having healthy conversations about the implications of systemic oppression and injustice. The list goes on. Just some thoughts on it ❤️

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Is this it? "No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal"

https://www.amazon.com/Longer-Separate-Not-Yet-Equal/dp/0691141606

Also, at least coming from my own perspective as a upper class white male, I found W.E.B. Du Bois' book "Souls of Black Folk" enlightening in a pretty profound way. It was published in 1903 but felt like it could have been written yesterday, which itself was pretty shocking. I also found his description of "double consciousness" both enlightening and tragic. He had a very interesting and dynamic life and some interesting personal philosophical struggles. Anyway, here is some more info about him and includes a bit about the book for anyone who is interested. I would describe it as a combination of a treatise and a very interesting history lesson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._B._Du_Bois

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30 minutes ago, daydreamy said:

In regards to fixing the issue, I think programs should be interested in the applicant as a person above all else. The best healthcare providers I've ever had were those who tailored their medical care to my personal needs, rather than trying to put me in a box. I'm not saying that categories are necessarily a bad thing, I just think that, in most cases, there don't have to be hard and fast rules to one's approach to medical care. Black and brown folks face very different experiences than white folks within the working class, middle class, etc. This stuff is important to have a basic understanding of, and then building from that you can take into account personal statements and interviews.

I know folks want things to be crystal clear. Like.. give me these guidelines and I'll follow them. But life is much more complicated than that. We, as individuals, are much more complicated than that. We really need to get together and figure this out frame by frame, taking into consideration trends amongst all walks of life. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it would benefit us as a society and as people to put in the effort to ensure equality for all. How does this look concretely? Joining PA organizations and forming caucuses that address these issues while challenging the status quo. Implementing policy that benefits folks  fairly. Encouraging schools to be more aware of their admissions cut-offs. Having healthy conversations about the implications of systemic oppression and injustice. The list goes on. Just some thoughts on it ❤️

I agree 100% but I'll throw something out there for you to consider that makes things very very tricky.

Join me on a hypothetical journey...

Say you have "me," but 30 years older and AdComm for a PA program or medical school. I'm (I actually am) a white male from an affluent and very well educated family (I'm the only male without a MD, PhD, or JD). Anyway, I have a handful of applicants I'm interviewing, all with exactly the same stats, down to the decimal, institution, PCE, etc etc, on paper they are all the same person. Now, what it comes down to in the interview is how my interaction with each person goes, how we vibe, and how well I can understand them in our limited time together. Do you think I would form a faster and more complete relationship, understanding the applicant and being comfortable with them, with another white male from an affluent and well educated family, or with any given minority from a poorly educated and impoverished family?

That dynamic has already been created, those in leadership positions today are disproportionately white and wealthy, so the odds of a minority applicant from a poorly educated and impoverished family being interviewed by someone with the same background is poor. How do I chose? Do I go with the applicant that I relate to more? Statistically I would posit that will be the white male from an affluent and well educated family; or do I "give credit" to the minority applicant, and if so, how much? It isn't just paper applications, it's interpersonal interaction; and in that respect, the odds are still stacked against minorities without deliberate effort otherwise.

Personally, that isn't the case for me, my soul is a blue collar one, and I'm perpetually annoyed by the culture I grew up in; but I'm part of the new generation, not the old one, and even then, among whites, I would wager I'm a minority. So actually finding "me" among AdComms is highly unlikely, and will probably remain unlikely for at least another generation or two.

Edit: Worth noting, of course an exceptional student with exceptional interpersonal skills will always be at an advantage regardless of race (and rightly so); but that isn't the subject. I'm talking about "when all else is equal." And that is what affirmative action in all of its manifestations has always really been about. Few, and certainly not me, would advocate for choosing a less qualified person over a significantly more qualified one based on race alone. Though historically that has been the case in favor of the majority. "Racial nepotism" if you will, be it conscious or subconscious.

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If it is of any comfort, I would guess that in my class minorities are overrepresented based on what I saw when I interviewed. I don't know if that is actually the case because I only saw about 10% of the applicants. So yes, some programs are indeed taking those things into consideration. At the interview stage it is a pretty even playing field academically and PCE wise. "Cast a wide net" with your applications and if you're at or above the mean for prior classes, you're very likely to be accepted somewhere.

Also I had my fair share of rejections after interview, and I was a second round applicant as well. So even though there probably is some bias (even subconscious), it isn't the whole story.

This whole discussion is hard to apply to a single person, it is more of a metadata/statistics problem.

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Guest HopefulPA329
1 hour ago, Anachronist said:

Also worth mentioning in the grand debate that I think gets missed sometimes, is "how do we proceed?"

It can be strongly argued and I think is generally accepted that minorities are underrepresented as a whole in society (economic, education, leadership) due to historic blatant racism (the aforementioned letter that someone posted; and my own father telling me that his black friend was denied officer training school because he was a "negro," well after military desegregation, as pretty powerful testament). Even if racism (conscious and subconscious) was magically obliterated today, poverty being overrepresented in minorities would still exist, and is still a detriment that will take many generations to equilibrate. 

So, the question then is... how do we proceed? Is it enough that we do everything possible to remove race (and racism from being detriments) so that race alone isn't a factor in someone's "success?" I think most enlightened folks would agree that yeah that is a good start; and/or, and it is a very big and/or; do we do even more, and create an advantage for minorities, making minority race itself favorable in an attempt to "undo" past racism at a detriment to the present majority? That is where the heated discussions seem to start. 

More simply, do we just eliminate race from the equation and let it balance itself over time, or do we forcibly correct the equation by actually injecting a counterbalance of race into it? And even if the answer is yes, then "how much?"

Thanks for sharing the data in your last post, it really puts this whole topic into perspective... As for how to proceed, I suggested that more HBCUs should start PA programs to address the minority problem, but some people in this forum think it's unfair and would not be based on merit. But how can minorities stand a chance in applying to predominantly white colleges with such high GPA and GRE cut-offs? I'm not saying that it's impossible for blacks to obtain these scores, but the data speaks for itself . The average GPA for black applicants is about a 3.15 and the average GRE score is about a 295. HBCU PA programs are not going to harm a white applicant's chance at getting in PA school; we only make up 7.3% of the total number of applications, while whites make up 74.4%.Some may argue and say, "Well, what about the white applicants who have low stats?" I actually agree, I think colleges should consider them equally as well. I don't think colleges should deny all those with less than a 3.6 GPA. In a standard deviation curve, there are 3 components: below mean, mean, and above mean. If a college is going to brand themselves as a "holistic approach", then we need to see a SD curve in their class profile. Also, another very easy solution to this problem is to increase the class sizes!! The class sizes are waaayy too small compared to the number of applicants. The PA profession is growing, so schools need to compensate for the growth. Please guys, don't come yelling at me lol. There's clearly a problem and we're just trying to brainstorm some solutions. 

 

Here's the data he posted: https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applicant-and-Matriculant-Data-from-CASPA.pdf

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