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Changing the professional title of Physician Assistants (***POLL***)

Changing the Professional Tittle of Physician Assistants (***POLL***)  

427 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think is the BEST title for our profession?

    • Physician Assistant (PA)
      12
    • Physician Associate (PA)
      154
    • Medical Practitioner (MP)
      168
    • Advanced Practice Provider (APP)
      19
    • Advanced Medical Practitioner (AMP)
      24
    • Clinical Officer (CO)
      3
    • Clinical Associate (CA)
      3
    • Advanced Provider (AP)
      4
    • Advanced Clinician (AC)
      4
    • Assistant Physician (AP)
      6
    • Associate Physician (AP)
      19
    • PA
      8
    • Other
      3


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I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).
What good reasons do you have for making our degree a doctorate? I find that more of a barrier than anything.

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15 hours ago, MedicinePower said:

I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).

The other question is how do you allow current PA's to obtain this title?  From my understand you can't retroactively upgrade a previous earned degree.  I graduated December 2016...I would be expected to complete another round of education at what I am sure would be an inflated cost to do the same job I am doing now, and without there being a change in legislation surrounding this name change, without any higher pay (no change in job/billing = no change in pay).

Now, I do believe my employer does cover tuition costs for continued education, but you have to apply for it and it has to be something that would benefit the hospital/clinic.  Simply taking classes to bump my title from PA to Doctor of "Whatever We Want" without a resulting change in revenue or responsibility likely wouldn't pass - unless I could convince them that me being a "doctor" would attract patients.  But, it's degree creep just like PT, OT, NP, etc.  Pretty soon we're going to have Doctors of Janitorial Services!

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under the scenario above, the DMP would be awarded after X date, just like when we switched from cert to as, from as to bs, and from bs to ms. yes, if you want the higher degree you would have to go back to school, but you would not need it to practice. there are still folks with non-academic certs as PAs practicing today. I got a bs from pa school and decided to go back for an ms later. 

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1 hour ago, DarcyJ said:
16 hours ago, MedicinePower said:
I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).

What good reasons do you have for making our degree a doctorate? I find that more of a barrier than anything.

the competition(nps) have one. we will lose jobs if we stagnate at the ms level. also , with 120+ credits after a BS we have already earned a doctoral credential. in most other fields 25-50 credits post bs=ms . add another 50 or so for a doctorate. you can go from bs in biology to MPH to DrPH for less than 100 credits total for both grad degrees, probably 80-90 total. 

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the competition(nps) have one. we will lose jobs if we stagnate at the ms level. also , with 120+ credits after a BS we have already earned a doctoral credential. in most other fields 25-50 credits post bs=ms . add another 50 or so for a doctorate. you can go from bs in biology to MPH to DrPH for less than 100 credits total for both grad degrees, probably 80-90 total. 

Interesting viewpoint, thank you. I was unaware of the credit hour information. In that case it makes more sense to award a higher degree.

As it stands now, however, I would argue that a DNP doesn't make an NP any more qualified than a PA. And, pursuing a doctorate because NPs get one is foolish - at this point anyway, when we have to pay more for a doctorate and spend longer in school. We just make our income stretched thinner with greater student debt. I'm already of the sentiment that a doctorate degree has fallen victim to inflation in many fields. I just cannot justify graduating with doctorate-degree debt on a PA salary for most clinicians. 

 

  

 

 

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Close to SEVEN THOUSAND views of this thread, yet a grim 300 of them participated in this poll!!

if that isn't an eye opener about us as a unit (and profession), I do NOT know what will.

Look at the NURSES for instance, do you know ANY other professionals that always stick together for the better good of their craft?

 

I speak with many of my colleagues, none of them know about this forum, none of them know about the possible name change proposal, none of them have noticed how most job now have openings for PAs OR NPs (yet PAs don't always get the job offer). We collectively act as a bunch of fools and choose to ignore things that one day will make it hard for us (and next gen of "PAs") to have a decent livelihood.

tbh, I am tired of the whole NP vs PA debate, we are not the same. period. Most of us PERFORM procedures, most NPs don't. is that good enough to make us stand in the eyes of an employer who ONLY cares about the max chances for bigger REVENUES? We have entered the age of medicine as a BUSINESS, our current name does not put us in the proper position to be profitable (in the long run) vs the NPs. 

You may have a few years left to practice, maybe you're half way there till retirement, but how about us, the new comers? How about our future generations? the people who cannot afford to be MDs et al.? What ARE WE doing to make sure they have a profession that is valued in the eyes of the ignorant consumers? 

 

This is OUR doing. We groomed people to only give a shit about NAME BRANDS, regardless of actual competencies. We buy Pradas, Louis Vs, BMWs, Benz, yet we shit on the other brands. WE not only (want to) send our kids to big school names rather than public schools, we also try to sh*t on the public schools too. We take our "big" money and LEAVE the community we came from instead of investing in the block (I'm guilty of that too)! I went to non private PA school, most of my colleagues in the same cohort went to private, yet we make similar income. I see more of my net income go in my account, they don't.  We have to drink a taste of our own medicine. Actually we have, now that we don't like it and realized that we fucked up years ago in naming this profession, we're pushing for change.

NOTHING is wrong with that.  

ANY names with the word "assistant" in it should never be an option for this profession. EVER. WE are judged' by our names. this is how we are as humans...judgmental. 

Edited by PC2ED
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8 hours ago, DarcyJ said:
23 hours ago, MedicinePower said:
I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).

What good reasons do you have for making our degree a doctorate? I find that more of a barrier than anything.

EMEDPA pretty much provided the perfect answer.

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6 hours ago, DarcyJ said:

Interesting viewpoint, thank you. I was unaware of the credit hour information. In that case it makes more sense to award a higher degree.

As it stands now, however, I would argue that a DNP doesn't make an NP any more qualified than a PA. And, pursuing a doctorate because NPs get one is foolish - at this point anyway, when we have to pay more for a doctorate and spend longer in school. We just make our income stretched thinner with greater student debt. I'm already of the sentiment that a doctorate degree has fallen victim to inflation in many fields. I just cannot justify graduating with doctorate-degree debt on a PA salary for most clinicians. 

 

  

 

 

I strong agree with you that the DNP degree does not provide any additional clinical skills or knowledge and it is a perfect example of degree creep. However if we are going to be be competitive with the NPs we need to upgrade.

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What most people don't understand is that the DNP is not a specific degree for NPs.  You can be a DNP without being a NP.  You can be an Informatics nurse, a CRNA, CNM, an administrator, etc.  It is not a clinical degree whatsoever.  It's the worst thing nursing leadership has decided to implement to date.  

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What most people don't understand is that the DNP is not a specific degree for NPs.  You can be a DNP without being a NP.  You can be an Informatics nurse, a CRNA, CNM, an administrator, etc.  It is not a clinical degree whatsoever.  It's the worst thing nursing leadership has decided to implement to date.  
I agree! It's misleading and shady. Most patients don't know the difference and NPs don't care to make them privy to the "secret."

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2 minutes ago, DarcyJ said:
6 minutes ago, Kaepora said:
What most people don't understand is that the DNP is not a specific degree for NPs.  You can be a DNP without being a NP.  You can be an Informatics nurse, a CRNA, CNM, an administrator, etc.  It is not a clinical degree whatsoever.  It's the worst thing nursing leadership has decided to implement to date.  

I agree! It's misleading and shady. Most patients don't know the difference and NPs don't care to make them privy to the "secret."

if it ain't broken, don't fix it, haha. It works in their favor

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it doesn't make a difference with docs, it makes a difference to the HR administrator who sees one person with a doctorate and one without and decides to go for the non-physician with the higher degree because it is a higher degree

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7 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

you can go from bs in biology to MPH to DrPH for less than 100 credits total for both grad degrees, probably 80-90 total. 

Similarly, one can go from BSN to DNP in way under 100 hours. There's no reason that a 116.5 credit hour program should award an MS.

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23 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

it doesn't make a difference with docs, it makes a difference to the HR administrator who sees one person with a doctorate and one without and decides to go for the non-physician with the higher degree because it is a higher degree

^THIS

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Credit hours are so subjective though.  Each PA program sets its own credit hours, but that doesn't necessarily correlate to difficulty.  I do agree that on average the typical PA program has enough credit hours to award a doctorate.  The schools near me have 82, 94, 89, 94 and 94.5 credit hours.  The local DNP program has 81 credit hours.

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On 3/20/2019 at 7:07 PM, PC2ED said:

Close to SEVEN THOUSAND views of this thread, yet a grim 300 of them participated in this poll!!

if that isn't an eye opener about us as a unit (and profession), I do NOT know what will.

Look at the NURSES for instance, do you know ANY other professionals that always stick together for the better good of their craft?

 

I speak with many of my colleagues, none of them know about this forum, none of them know about the possible name change proposal, none of them have noticed how most job now have openings for PAs OR NPs (yet PAs don't always get the job offer). We collectively act as a bunch of fools and choose to ignore things that one day will make it hard for us (and next gen of "PAs") to have a decent livelihood.

tbh, I am tired of the whole NP vs PA debate, we are not the same. period. Most of us PERFORM procedures, most NPs don't. is that good enough to make us stand in the eyes of an employer who ONLY cares about the max chances for bigger REVENUES? We have entered the age of medicine as a BUSINESS, our current name does not put us in the proper position to be profitable (in the long run) vs the NPs. 

You may have a few years left to practice, maybe you're half way there till retirement, but how about us, the new comers? How about our future generations? the people who cannot afford to be MDs et al.? What ARE WE doing to make sure they have a profession that is valued in the eyes of the ignorant consumers? 

 

This is OUR doing. We groomed people to only give a shit about NAME BRANDS, regardless of actual competencies. We buy Pradas, Louis Vs, BMWs, Benz, yet we shit on the other brands. WE not only (want to) send our kids to big school names rather than public schools, we also try to sh*t on the public schools too. We take our "big" money and LEAVE the community we came from instead of investing in the block (I'm guilty of that too)! I went to non private PA school, most of my colleagues in the same cohort went to private, yet we make similar income. I see more of my net income go in my account, they don't.  We have to drink a taste of our own medicine. Actually we have, now that we don't like it and realized that we fucked up years ago in naming this profession, we're pushing for change.

NOTHING is wrong with that.  

ANY names with the word "assistant" in it should never be an option for this profession. EVER. WE are judged' by our names. this is how we are as humans...judgmental. 

I totally agree with your point about the apathy in the profession. I am stunned on an almost daily basis at the number of my colleagues who are totally unaware of the nuts and bolts of what drives our profession. I have become a nag in my little corner of the world trying to get folks to at least have some basic awareness of the forces changing their professional future. It is a Sisyphean task.

I didn't answer the poll because 1) Its been done so many times I stopped answering and 2) Its somewhat moot at this point as we are waiting for the results of the marketing study the AAPA funded. This type polls primary value IMHO is generating conversation.

I have 2 continuing beliefs about title change. 1)We shouldn't be assistant anything. We are a fully mature profession all on our own. 2) The title shouldn't relate us to any other profession. Not Physician Associate, Nurse Slayer, Deputy Doctor...nothing. Just a title that is uniquely us.

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Scott, I'm right there with you.  I didn't vote because whatever is decided won't impact me since I anticipate being gone in the next year or so.  That being said, how can we expect people to get involved with professional changes when I don't know how many times over the past decade or so (let's take it back to when Texas obtained prescriptive privileges for example) I've answered questions for other PA's who don't have a clue as to the state guidelines because they haven't taken the time to read them for themselves!  I don't think that the argument of "I didn't know" is going to be a viable defense in front of the state board.  I may have old man syndrome myself, but I sure as heck read them before I started working (pre-licensure) and continue to do so on a regular basis to make sure that I'm not missing anything.  Perfect example is I can't find the qualifier any longer that I found back around 2014 with regard to how much time in the workplace is required to maintain eligibility for licensure.  If it was removed I never saw a notification to that effect.  I also had to call the board last year to inquire as to why I didn't get a two year license renewal though the change from one to two years had already been passed.  I wonder how many Texas PA's up for renewal this year with odd last digit licenses (even start 2020)  know that it'll be for two years?

Edited by GetMeOuttaThisMess

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2 hours ago, Kaepora said:

Credit hours are so subjective though.  Each PA program sets its own credit hours, but that doesn't necessarily correlate to difficulty.  I do agree that on average the typical PA program has enough credit hours to award a doctorate.  The schools near me have 82, 94, 89, 94 and 94.5 credit hours.  The local DNP program has 81 credit hours.

Credit hours definitely seem subjective, we're in agreement there. However, the hours you listed for those programs are at the low end of the curve for PA programs. The programs in my state are all around 120 credits, and those in the bordering state range from 128-174. Across the country, the 120 range seems to be most common and is likely near the average for all programs. I have yet to see any DNP program that breaks 100, and most I've looked at seem to be in the 70-80 range (for direct BSN-DNP programs); master's level NP programs are often as little as 45 credits.  

Don't get me wrong -- I don't say all that to create a pissing contest between PAs & NPs, but rather to lend evidence to the idea that PAs (in most cases) already complete the credit hour requirements to be awarded a doctorate according to many regional accreditation organizations. 

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10 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

Credit hours definitely seem subjective, we're in agreement there. However, the hours you listed for those programs are at the low end of the curve for PA programs. The programs in my state are all around 120 credits, and those in the bordering state range from 128-174. Across the country, the 120 range seems to be most common and is likely near the average for all programs. I have yet to see any DNP program that breaks 100, and most I've looked at seem to be in the 70-80 range (for direct BSN-DNP programs); master's level NP programs are often as little as 45 credits.  

Don't get me wrong -- I don't say all that to create a pissing contest between PAs & NPs, but rather to lend evidence to the idea that PAs (in most cases) already complete the credit hour requirements to be awarded a doctorate according to many regional accreditation organizations. 

It was very much the same when we made the change from Bachelors to Masters. Most of us had already done masters level work so simple transitional programs popped up. I think we will see more of this as the doctorate becomes the standard.

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On 3/19/2019 at 10:23 PM, MedicinePower said:

I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).

 

I like it - but I think it is too late....

 

On 3/20/2019 at 1:26 PM, DarcyJ said:
On 3/19/2019 at 10:23 PM, MedicinePower said:
I'd be in favor of "Medical Practitioner" if our degree can also become a Doctor of Medical Practice (DMP).

What good reasons do you have for making our degree a doctorate? I find that more of a barrier than anything.

 

Oh boy - PLEASE go read previous threads on this - it is perception and politics - and yes they do make a difference.... 

 

 

On 3/20/2019 at 8:07 PM, PC2ED said:

Close to SEVEN THOUSAND views of this thread, yet a grim 300 of them participated in this poll!!

if that isn't an eye opener about us as a unit (and profession), I do NOT know what will.

 

 

Thread views is just that - I have probably "viewed" this thread 100 times, but only voted once and only one person...

 

 

 

On 3/20/2019 at 10:29 PM, EMEDPA said:

it doesn't make a difference with docs, it makes a difference to the HR administrator who sees one person with a doctorate and one without and decides to go for the non-physician with the higher degree because it is a higher degree

BINGO

 

We got passed over for Hi-Tech funds due to our Name - Assistants fall under the Doc - so Washington (and the old guard at AAPA who were asleep at the wheel!) cost the PA profession ($24,000 x 100,000 pa's) $24,000,000,000

That is REAL NUMBERS and that PERCEPTION is everything in DC

 

Would you rather get seen by a practitioner or assistant

 

 

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I voted when I clicked on the topic.  I read through the posts and then got to the part where Scott said he was at the HOD and title change resolution passed.   Oh, "good grief" I said to myself.....I'M READING AN OLD POST THAT"S BEEN BUMPED.

2019 HOD will have updated info on title change and I expect we will get the preliminary report from the research company.

If there is a positive outcome for title change it will still take at least one more year as the process will then be in phase 2.

If it's a negative outcome and AAPA drops the ball and denies us the ability to have a new title, I will not be renewing my dues.

That's it for me. 

 

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