SilentPA Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Hey All, https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/natural-doctors-face-skepticism-from-practitioners-of-conventional-medicine/2018/04/09/0c148bf4-3351-11e8-8abc-22a366b72f2d_story.html?utm_term=.a18ab08bd7c5 I was scrolling through various news outlets and found out about NDs? I couldn't find any threads about this and wanted to know everyone's thoughts. Key takeaways from this article: NDs seek to "be allowed to work as primary-care physicians, prescribe medication, diagnose diseases and seek insurance payment just as MDs and DOs do." Is this a new profession? I have honestly never heard of it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 I haven't done a deep dive into it but my reading puts naturopathy in the total quackery category. It isn't new. Generally they eschew medical research, immunizations, medicines and surgery in favor of "natural healing". that is a catch all for a number of things that have either been totally disproven, hasn't been proven, or can't be proven. A friend of mine saw one (when he didn't know what he was seeing) who struck a tuning fork and put it on his (my friend's) forehead while he (the doctor) touched various vials he had in a case that contained different substances waiting for the vibration that would provide the diagnosis. The diagnosis? Heavy metal poisoning. The actual diagnosis? Vertebral artery stenosis. Close but no cigar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon, PA-C Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 What's really funny about naturopaths is the fact that they want to advertise how they are different from MDs, yet in teh same breath they are lobbying legislatures for the rights to script antibiotics, narcs, BP meds, and do medical procedures just like an MD. The NDs are on a money grab mission -- nothing more. They want to blur the lines between NDs and MDs and do the same things that the MDs do because they know deep down they cant compete against NDs with their quackery "natural" crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted April 28, 2018 Administrator Share Posted April 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 So...like an np...only better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katieo Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Seems like gratuitous NP bashing. Naturopaths are nothing like NPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted April 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, katieo said: Seems like gratuitous NP bashing. Naturopaths are nothing like NPs. I agree training very different. similar goals of displacing physicians. There are some combined NP/ND programs out there that allow use of the "physician" title in many states and get around the limits to ND prescribing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentPA Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 I was just surprised that NDs could be called physicians and attempt to become a pcp. Also, doesn’t prescribing go against the “natural” philosophy? Recommendations of lifestyle changes and vitamins should be all that is needed if one follows the natural philosophy. You don’t need a script for vitamins and omega 3 oils after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 It is, I admit it. Neither of them have an ounce of medical training. Neither are regulated by a board of medicine. In the VA medical center I work, I am the only pa. There are three nps and 2 mds. In the surrounding clinic, there are 3 mds and...3 nps. An np signs her notes as "Dr". I'm not going to go into the opinion of the fmg of PA's. I'm not upset about my life choice. Each of my patients get superb care. I believe that pa training is far more superior to np training, with some exceptions. My personal experience with nps is that I will not go to one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SedRate Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 Yikes... And to think patients literally buy into this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc56 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 My Mom did a program and it was all online. She said she had a doctorate... When I talked to her more about it, she admitted it was not an accredited program. I wanted to dive deeper into it but lost interest. The thing that was interesting was her program was very clear in recommending you do not call yourself a "doctor" as you could get in trouble. The program my Mom went to was very "work book" oriented and then take a test. No hands on or clinicals. Bach flowers, essential oils, iridology (reading the iris for disease), "ancient Chinese" medicine, blood type eating, and some other stuff. The interesting part has been watching her lose faith in certain treatments as they aren't working, in fact certain things are getting worse. She and I would get into mild arguments, she stuck with the argument on things that worked for her... Mostly psych related (placebo effect). Certain things would calm her, give her joy, or make her focus. The things that were supposed to cure her hypothyroid or her varicose veins just don't seem to work. Surprise surprise. I think there is a place for them but not in PCP arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 The ideal of natural medicine has some sound thoughts - then it got to be a business. The NDs in my town are very oppositional, defiant and tend to trash "the poison of allopathic medicine". Lots of saliva tests and some can't order blood tests because they are not insurance vetted or covered. They send their list with their patient to me and want me to order all the voodoo. One patient wants her TSH checked every month because every burp, fart and sneeze is obviously dictated by her thyroid and her Armour thyroid (don't get me started there) has to be constantly adjusted. Most of the time her TSH is 0.04 and her T4 is way above normal, she is tachycardic, etc. I told her I would NOT order any tests from her ND, nor adjust her thyroid, nor endorse anything she was doing as it was dangerous, cavalier and completely unsubstantiated by science. I have thyroid disease - not going down the road of micro adjusting my med every day based on how "I feel". If it was that simple, I would be a size 4 and would feel marvelous every damn day. Chiropractors tell patients they all have a spinal curvature, one leg is longer than the other and they have ribs "out of place". EVERYONE gets this diagnosis. Somehow ear infections can be fixed by adjusting an elbow and never mind vertebral arteries - dizziness can be fixed by a good snap of the neck. Naturopaths tell everyone they have "adrenal fatigue" and that diabetes of any level can be eradicated by a keto diet - with or without kidney stones - your luck. Even if your A1c is 10 and your pancreas is not working - no need for insulin - it is poison. If stress truly caused adrenal fatigue then our entire military and the overwhelming majority of the US public would be adrenal insufficient and dying - based on the naturopathic ideals. I don't like it when they eschew KNOWN long term things that help - when better living through chemistry has its finer points. One guy spends $400 dollars a month on supplements because statins are "poison". Three months later his LDL is still 207 and his Framingham risk is over 30%. But he will not take a statin. He is going to lose his job as a firefighter when he fails the mandated physical - do you want him carrying you down a ladder when the MI hits??? So, my opinion of naturopaths where I live is low and dwindling. They have no desire to work in conjunction with allopathic or osteopathic providers. They seem to try to destroy any faith in those branches of medicine. There is even a naturopathic dentist in town - What that is - I have no idea. Does he fill teeth with rocks? Is Lidocaine evil? I am sure fluoride is evil. Be aware, be wary and do right by the patient. My crusty old 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 If it makes you feel better, your opinion of naturopaths is much better than mine. I think they are all f♧(£ing fraudsters, should be throat punched, then sent to jail. Every single one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katieo Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 4 hours ago, thinkertdm said: It is, I admit it. Neither of them have an ounce of medical training. Neither are regulated by a board of medicine. In the VA medical center I work, I am the only pa. There are three nps and 2 mds. In the surrounding clinic, there are 3 mds and...3 nps. An np signs her notes as "Dr". I'm not going to go into the opinion of the fmg of PA's. I'm not upset about my life choice. Each of my patients get superb care. I believe that pa training is far more superior to np training, with some exceptions. My personal experience with nps is that I will not go to one. NPs don’t have an ounce of medical training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 1 minute ago, katieo said: NPs don’t have an ounce of medical training? Some NP programs give an ounce, a few give 8 ounces. That's about it (CRNA and ACNP are exceptions). But that's more than ND!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted April 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted April 29, 2018 1 hour ago, katieo said: NPs don’t have an ounce of medical training? it's semantics. they would say that they learned advanced nursing. If they ID it as "medical" they are concerned they will come under the purview of the medical board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 12 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said: If it makes you feel better, your opinion of naturopaths is much better than mine. I think they are all f♧(£ing fraudsters, should be throat punched, then sent to jail. Every single one of them. I just helped avert a potential ND disaster yesterday - one convinced this person to stop all their cardiac meds and go on herbs (that only they dispense at high price) and vitamins - who presented with uncontrolled AF/HTN and was going into CHF. I guess 'First do no harm" translates to "First, do no harm to my own bank account". The only good thing I can say about these asshats is that they'll keep many of us gainfully employed unphuquing things they've done to people... SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted April 29, 2018 Administrator Share Posted April 29, 2018 On 4/28/2018 at 11:32 AM, EMEDPA said: I agree training very different. similar goals of displacing physicians. There are some combined NP/ND programs out there that allow use of the "physician" title in many states and get around the limits to ND prescribing. I hadn't heard of this--you have more specifics handy, or should i just Google? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalPalm Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 On April 28, 2018 at 2:32 PM, EMEDPA said: There are some combined NP/ND programs out there that allow use of the "physician" title in many states and get around the limits to ND prescribing. Such as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted April 30, 2018 Moderator Share Posted April 30, 2018 Bastyr (ND) and Seattle University (NP) used to have a combined 6 year ND/MSN/NP program. Don't know if they still do. here is a grad of that program: http://ericamatluckndnp.com/ INTERESTING PROGRAM.... https://www.nursing.umn.edu/degrees-programs/doctor-nursing-practice/post-baccalaureate/integrative-health-and-healing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 This is the key to that website. The little paragraph at the bottom of the page. Graduates are NOT ARNPs. I repeat - NOT ARNPs. Read the fine print - always...... Certifications The American Holistic Nurses Credentialing Corporation (AHNCC) offers a certification exam which confers certification as American Holistic Nurse, Board Certified (AHN-BC). This is offered through the AHNCC. The Advanced Practice Registered Nurse designation is not used for the Integrative Health and Healing DNP graduate. This designation is reserved for advanced practice nurses prepared as certified nurse specialists, nurse midwifes, nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists, recognizing their ability to prescribe pharmaceuticals. This is not the focus of the integrative health DNP program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted April 30, 2018 Moderator Share Posted April 30, 2018 yup DNPs who are not ARNPs....odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 And catch the title of the "authorizing" board - CORPORATION. Really? A Corporation that you pay money to in order to receive their title which does NOTHING in the real world. No prescribing rights and a hokey title. I am sure this is not recognized by the AMA, any state board, any insurance company and not even likely the nursing union. It just sounds better than Doctorate of Underwater Basketweaving --- and folks will pay for this garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSpectre Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, EMEDPA said: INTERESTING PROGRAM.... https://www.nursing.umn.edu/degrees-programs/doctor-nursing-practice/post-baccalaureate/integrative-health-and-healing Yea this DNP program has an interesting curriculum, including such gems as "Botanical Medicines in Integrative Healthcare", "Art of Healing: Self as Healer", "Reiki Healing", "Accupressure", "Aromatherapy Fundamentals", "Advanced Meditation", and "Advanced Reiki Healing: Level II". And that's not including all of the "Integrative Healing" classes (of which there were 8) or the normal DNP "fluff" courses on administration, health policy leadership, etc. It looks like maybe a quarter of the 82 credits are courses in the medical sciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 In our area (within the shadow of Bastyr, almost as many patients report a ND as their primary care as a MD/DO/PA or NP. It is very hard to help those patients because they have been taught that we only treat symptoms and NDs treat the real cause. That virtually all modern diseases are caused by diet and toxins and all (including cancer) can be cured through diet and detoxing. I shared a program once with an ND. Nothing she said make any physiological sense. They advertise locally that NDs are Primary Care Physicians who have had extra training in natural medicine." I've had many patients who have been under the care of their ND for years and have suffered horribly from their near daily migraines. Yet, when they come to me, the expect that I do the same thing that ther ND has done, give them diets and supplements and avoid all "chemical medications." I always ask, "Well, how's that other system working out for you? If it is not working, we should try a new (evidence-based) approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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