PA vs. PT

[DPT88]

On 4/17/2018 at 2:39 AM, kko0403 said:

I was enrolled in an accelerated DPT program before I decided to leave and begin the process to apply to PA school. My former PT classmates will be graduating this summer and I'm honestly very happy with my decision to leave. I've spent the past few years getting paid HCE hours rather than completing the 3 years of graduate school. 

Additionally, I have shadowed some PAs who have told me that they also considered applying to PT schools at one time. Many stated that they felt PT was a more limiting career. It's more specific, you cannot prescribe meds, and you cannot work in as many specialties. Salaries are also lower than PAs and I personally don't think the PT field needs to require a doctorate (most programs are now 3 year DPT programs). 

PT is more limited when compared to PA in that we are specialized in orthopedics and considered movement specialist. PA is a great profession in being able to jump around specialties- definitely a perk to the job if you are not interested in specializing.

[DPT88]

On 5/3/2018 at 9:13 AM, PAhopeful85 said:

I've been a PTA for the past 4 years and am a pre-PA student. I've talked to many PT's and OT's and I would say roughly 90% of them literally tell me they wish they did PA school or nursing. The PT's with doctorates (DPTs), get frustrated when they are literally told who to eval, who to pick up on caseload, and for how long by some office employee making 14/hr. What's the point of a higher degree when you're bossed around by everybody else?

In the nursing  home setting the PT's I know make roughly 85,000/yr on paper, but patients refuse or get sick and your hours drop. I like to joke that PT is the opposite of "work smart, not harder". What do you want to do when the director makes you eval a stroke patient that is a long term resident at the nursing home and in the past 7 years has had therapy every year for a hundred days with no improvement? Guess what, you're going to pick them up and do it all over again (definition of insanity btw).

The evals are cookie cutter and you get pressured to pick the same people up over and over and over again despite knowing that they will never improve (like severe hamstring contractures on someone alert and oriented x 0 who has been bed bound for ten years which will only improve with surgical intervention). They also have to lie during their evals about how much patient's actually can do or private insurance will discharge them. So if they can walk 300 feet on day one, the PT will document that they walked 30 ft so we can justify keeping them on caseload by showing improvement. What's the point of the doctorate again if you just end up making stuff up on evals? 

In the home health setting as a PTA I seriously have a bone to pick with these supervising PT's. They will pick up anybody for tx and then it's all on me to deal with the stress. Don't pick up a patient that literally tells you they don't want to do HH therapy. I have maybe seen 4 patients in two years actually improve as a result of therapy and I would guess those patient's probably would have improved regardless of our intervention. And when I ask patient's what the supervising PT did with them they almost always say "they walked in, said I'm signing you up for therapy and the assistant will see you next week and they left". So, they don't even do any actual work and just make up stuff on the eval that sounds good. 

The positives of PT is how laid back it is. If a problem happens you can always call a nurse or doctor and pass it off. I for one am pursuing PA because I want to feel important and not just sit on the sidelines like others.

 

 

Sounds like you are in a bad setting and should consider getting out of there. I personally feel that outpatient ortho is where the true value to PT lies. If you are not hands on with patients with soft tissue manipulation, dry needling, and joint manipulation followed by strengthening, then thats not modern day physical therapy. Implementing outcomes and bench marking treatments in the practice of rehabilitation is going to put these types of facilities out of business. 

[EMEDPA]

5 minutes ago, DPT88 said:

PT is more limited when compared to PA in that we are specialized in orthopedics and considered movement specialist. PA is a great profession in being able to jump around specialties- definitely a perk to the job if you are not interested in specializing.

lateral mobility is getting harder every year and will likely vanish within a decade when residencies, specialty boards, and doctoral degrees become the norm for the profession. Honestly, I think that is a good thing. you can't go from pediatrics to trauma surgery(or vis versa) and be anywhere close to competent in your first several years in practice.

[DPT88]

3 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

lateral mobility is getting harder every year and will likely vanish within a decade when residencies, specialty boards, and doctoral degrees become the norm for the profession. Honestly, I think that is a good thing. you can't go from pediatrics to trauma surgery(or vis versa) and be anywhere close to competent in your first several years in practice.

Agreed. I think thats a good move for the PA profession - better patient care. I am also an ATC and still feel that the combination of both requires further training in ortho. Residency is becoming very popular post DPT school, with all motivation coming from the students to become a better clinician. 

[Batman]

On 4/26/2018 at 3:42 PM, ChaseBlakeley said:

Maybe this forum is biased, but based on anecdote alone, these posts are generally pro-PA more than pro-PT based on their own experiences and talking to others in the field.

I think the emphasis on learning medicine and prescribing medicine as a PA as going to ultimately drive me in that direction. As an aside, all the experience I have had as a client of PT's has been generally positive in the short term, but never healed any of my underlying issues, which is where I think medicine could have entered in the picture and gives me a personal motivation to pursue this path.

 

Thank you all for your feedback

Ive been working as a physical therapist assistant (PTA) for the past 7 years and I start PA school in August. Most of the newer grad DPT's are in upwards of 150-200k of student loan debt. Although most of the PTs that I work with love their job they regret it due to the debt ratio they are in. Most cant afford homes either. 

Many of them have told me if they could do it again going the DPT route would not of been for them. I can attest that being  in physical therapy is pretty hard on the body and I am so fortunate to be switching careers. 

As a PTA I have worked PRN which has given me the pay of a DPT without the student loan debt that they are in. Its nice but if medicine is your thing the PA route is fantastic. Good luck!

[Jennifer12]

I completely disagree with this pro-PA movement. First of all, DPT is a specialty in medicine and PA is not in that scope of medicine, you cannot compare the two. You have to chose your preference in the medical setting, for example if you like to deal more with diagnosis and clinical work PA would be a better fit, because they are ones who are given that responsibility. However, PT is more of a hands on approach, you are touching and working with the patients more than dealing with a diagnosis. Also PT is a specific field geared toward the functionality and rehabilitation and strengthening of the body. One might even argue that a PA, although they touch a broad scope of medicine it is on a very general level. They don’t really have an in-depth knowledge of that scope of their field-hence having to be signed off by the Physician (I know there are PA’s who Doc’s trust to work independently, but you are still an assistant after all.) For example, there are ortho PA’s, but they do not know the in depth procedures that a PT would know that is why they refer patients to the PT. 

DPT is a very skilled occupation, my niece went through this same battle. I think it depends on what you plan to purse in the medical field. I think both are very respectable fields. PA’s are very knowledgeable, however if you care about the large scope of medicine, PT’s have that same scope. There is PT geared towards different ages (geriatrics, peds, infants) different diseases (diabetes,cancer,Parkinson’s) and even with specific extremities ( foot, leg, etc). They have an equal scope! It could also be argued that PT’s are their own boss, They do not have to refer to anyone, they call the shots, although PA’s may write a script the PT can always follow their own plan of care unless the doctor has prescribed specific weight bearing guidelines. The biggest reason PT trumps PA for me, is the big question, if the big attraction to a PA is that you get to do everything a Doc can do, why don’t you become a physician? It seems like a cop out to me. Especially the advocates on this forum, “debt, the ratio, PA’s have a higher salary for less school” you aren’t following a passion, but really looking for money...

Which brings me to the final subject that is a huge misconception about PT. The flexibility of a PT is outrageous! You can make as much as a Doc, if you work the right shifts. With PT hours are very flexible, you can work at the hospital 40 hours a week and work weekends in nursing homes, travel opportunities etc. they can make a TON! Now PT can be exhausting, but they are not on their feet as much as a PA, for a PA to pick up extra hours.... I don’t see that happening at least to the extent of how PT can.

PT’s make a difference, they are very respected among Physicians and other medical staff. I think if I could do it again I would be a PT! 

I’m in no way trying to disrespect PA’s I think they have a very respected place, I just think that compared to a PT... there really is no comparison.. and I feel that PT is a very under rated profession until you’ve delved into what it really involves. After all, they do have a doctorate versus the master degree the PA’s hold... there should be some respect towards these clinicians. We should give credit where credit is due. PA’s have a rigourus program and that shouldn’t be taken lightly, as far as rank I believe a PT is ranked higher due to their schooling (Doctorate vs Masters) as well as their skill set ( specialty vs overview of medicine) it’s just a more zoomed in approach.

I hope this helped somebody, don’t fall into the rut of rank or status to become a PT, do it out of a passion. Same goes for PA, make sure your doing it not because you want the next best thing next to a Doc or financial reasons. PA has taken storm, but I think in a couple years PT will have its place! 

 

[DiggySRNA]

40 minutes ago, Jennifer12 said:

I completely disagree with this pro-PA movement... First of all, DPT is a specialty in medicine and PA is not in that scope of medicine, you cannot compare the two...One might even argue that a PA, although they touch a broad scope of medicine it is on a very general level. They don’t really have an in-depth knowledge of that scope of their field-hence having to be signed off by the Physician (I know there are PA’s who Doc’s trust to work independently, but you are still an assistant after all.) For example, there are ortho PA’s, but they do not know the in depth procedures that a PT would know that is why they refer patients to the PT. 

DPT is a very skilled occupation, my niece went through this same battle. I think it depends on what you plan to purse in the medical field. I think both are very respectable fields. PA’s are very knowledgeable, however if you care about the large scope of medicine, PT’s have that same scope. There is PT geared towards different ages (geriatrics, peds, infants) different diseases (diabetes,cancer,Parkinson’s) and even with specific extremities ( foot, leg, etc). They have an equal scope! It could also be argued that PT’s are their own boss, They do not have to refer to anyone, they call the shots, although PA’s may write a script the PT can always follow their own plan of care unless the doctor has prescribed specific weight bearing guidelines. The biggest reason PT trumps PA for me, is the big question, if the big attraction to a PA is that you get to do everything a Doc can do, why don’t you become a physician? It seems like a cop out to me. Especially the advocates on this forum, “debt, the ratio, PA’s have a higher salary for less school” you aren’t following a passion, but really looking for money...

Which brings me to the final subject that is a huge misconception about PT. The flexibility of a PT is outrageous! You can make as much as a Doc, if you work the right shifts. With PT hours are very flexible, you can work at the hospital 40 hours a week and work weekends in nursing homes, travel opportunities etc. they can make a TON! Now PT can be exhausting, but they are not on their feet as much as a PA, for a PA to pick up extra hours.... I don’t see that happening at least to the extent of how PT can.

I’m in no way trying to disrespect PA’s I think they have a very respected place, I just think that compared to a PT... there really is no comparison.. and I feel that PT is a very under rated profession until you’ve delved into what it really involves. After all, they do have a doctorate versus the master degree the PA’s hold... there should be some respect towards these clinicians. We should give credit where credit is due. PA’s have a rigourus program and that shouldn’t be taken lightly, as far as rank I believe a PT is ranked higher due to their schooling (Doctorate vs Masters)

 

Yikes...where to begin lmao. It sounds like you have a major chip on your shoulder.

First off, welcome to the PA FORUM where everything is PRO-PA....as it should be haha.

You cannot start off saying you cannot compare the two professions and then under the same breath minimize the work PAs do across the US on a daily basis in comparison to PTs.  PAs receive a generalist training but you can find a PA in every specialty and sub-specialty...From Family medicine to hematology/oncology (sounds like an in-depth specialty if you ask me). Hence when they re-certify they have to read a generalist book to relearn general medicine. Same thing goes for Ortho Physicians to cardiologists, or are you also denying their expertise?

It is also false to claim PTs have the same scope of practice as PAs. PAs write orders for the PTs to follow...without a referral from a PA, NP, MD/DO...PTs have no reason to evaluate a patient unless said patient miraculously wanders in said PT's office. Also, referring patients to appropriate ancillary services is SAFE practice. Every single clinician I know does it. FYI DPT is NOT a specialty in medicine....DPT is a clinician who focuses on movement and rehabilitation which IS a specialty in medicine. Just like how Physician/PA isn't a specialty...but a licensed clinician in a specific specialty; PM&R.

Yeah PTs might be their own boss but what does that have to do with patient care? PAs call the shots in my ER for the patients they care for. The physicians have their own patients to worry about so I am convinced you are misinformed about the PA profession.

Regarding the ranking...are you saying DPTs are more qualified to care for patients than MS trained PTs? Because you're sadly mistaken if you think yes and a sell out to your own kind. Also, according to Forbes top 10 jobs for 2018...PAs were # 3 while PTs didn't make the cut. 

I saw a tax return from a Pediatric Trauma PA in NYC who made 142K in 1 year....pretty sure FM physicians make 150-200K/year....so that is pretty comparable. So yes, PAs can make OT if they choose. Their schedule isn't limited because they are a PA.

PTs have their place...no one is denying that.

Again, welcome to the PA FORUM.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Diggy

[PAtoMD]

6 hours ago, Jennifer12 said:

I completely disagree with this pro-PA movement. First of all, DPT is a specialty in medicine and PA is not in that scope of medicine, you cannot compare the two. You have to chose your preference in the medical setting, for example if you like to deal more with diagnosis and clinical work PA would be a better fit, because they are ones who are given that responsibility. However, PT is more of a hands on approach, you are touching and working with the patients more than dealing with a diagnosis. Also PT is a specific field geared toward the functionality and rehabilitation and strengthening of the body. One might even argue that a PA, although they touch a broad scope of medicine it is on a very general level. They don’t really have an in-depth knowledge of that scope of their field-hence having to be signed off by the Physician (I know there are PA’s who Doc’s trust to work independently, but you are still an assistant after all.) For example, there are ortho PA’s, but they do not know the in depth procedures that a PT would know that is why they refer patients to the PT. 

DPT is a very skilled occupation, my niece went through this same battle. I think it depends on what you plan to purse in the medical field. I think both are very respectable fields. PA’s are very knowledgeable, however if you care about the large scope of medicine, PT’s have that same scope. There is PT geared towards different ages (geriatrics, peds, infants) different diseases (diabetes,cancer,Parkinson’s) and even with specific extremities ( foot, leg, etc). They have an equal scope! It could also be argued that PT’s are their own boss, They do not have to refer to anyone, they call the shots, although PA’s may write a script the PT can always follow their own plan of care unless the doctor has prescribed specific weight bearing guidelines. The biggest reason PT trumps PA for me, is the big question, if the big attraction to a PA is that you get to do everything a Doc can do, why don’t you become a physician? It seems like a cop out to me. Especially the advocates on this forum, “debt, the ratio, PA’s have a higher salary for less school” you aren’t following a passion, but really looking for money...

Which brings me to the final subject that is a huge misconception about PT. The flexibility of a PT is outrageous! You can make as much as a Doc, if you work the right shifts. With PT hours are very flexible, you can work at the hospital 40 hours a week and work weekends in nursing homes, travel opportunities etc. they can make a TON! Now PT can be exhausting, but they are not on their feet as much as a PA, for a PA to pick up extra hours.... I don’t see that happening at least to the extent of how PT can.

PT’s make a difference, they are very respected among Physicians and other medical staff. I think if I could do it again I would be a PT! 

I’m in no way trying to disrespect PA’s I think they have a very respected place, I just think that compared to a PT... there really is no comparison.. and I feel that PT is a very under rated profession until you’ve delved into what it really involves. After all, they do have a doctorate versus the master degree the PA’s hold... there should be some respect towards these clinicians. We should give credit where credit is due. PA’s have a rigourus program and that shouldn’t be taken lightly, as far as rank I believe a PT is ranked higher due to their schooling (Doctorate vs Masters) as well as their skill set ( specialty vs overview of medicine) it’s just a more zoomed in approach.

I hope this helped somebody, don’t fall into the rut of rank or status to become a PT, do it out of a passion. Same goes for PA, make sure your doing it not because you want the next best thing next to a Doc or financial reasons. PA has taken storm, but I think in a couple years PT will have its place! 

 

FWIW the DPT is a relatively new degree. There are plenty of Master level PTs practicing. It’s degree creep that is being seen in many other fields I.e AUD, DNP, the new DMSc. Also, I’ve compared my credit hours for my program compared to other DPT programs in my state and my credit exceeded all of the DPT programs. The doctorate level degree did not advance their practice or scope it’s a superfluous title that only obscured the field of medicine to patients. I don’t find that point in your post to very convincing.

 

 

I do find your point about the differences in PA vs PT to be compelling. They are completely different fields which makes the comparison very hard 

Edited October 25, 2019 by PAtoMD

[Jennifer1234567]

I feel I need to clear this up... I was in no way saying that PA is a lesser profession, or a worse one. I was saying that this forum is pretty disprespectful concerning PT’s.. that’s all. I was a PA, so I am in no way tearing down my own profession. As for the chip on my shoulder we can see who has a real chip by creating a forum that is just not only Pro- PA( fine) but so much that it wants to bash another profession...

I agreed with most of your points

1. PA’s have expertise

you said that PT’s are in a specialty- sure agreed. However they ARE a specialist. PA’s are in a specialty but like you just said you through a “generalist training”. They are not a specialist. A cardiologist and Ortho doc are not he same thing as a PA they are specialized in their studies. 

2. They write the referrals 

I never disputed this! I completely agree with that, I wrote many referrals to PT’s myself, I’m just saying they don’t have to answer to us about what they did with the patient. However we do answer to our leading physician. I know that my doc trusted me to handle things independently, but technically that is not always the case and your occupation title is still an “Assistant” you cannot not ever truly say you are fully autonomous. 

 

3. Rank

My own kind is PA... so I’m not selling out anyone! We aren’t talking about grandfathering in and the degree title, that now is not the issue. We are comparing PA to DPT. I am saying that the schooling we went through and the schooling Dpt’s go through have different focuses. You can’t say one is harder than the other. Sure we learn about the process of diagnosis and pharmacology... PT’s no NOTHING OF THAT! However their program is an in depth study of their career. Which we know nothing of! My purpose of stating that they have a doctorate shouldn't come as a blow... um that’s a fact, get over it. Doctorates are ranked higher than masters degrees... I’m not sure how else I’m supposed to sugar coat that. 

4. Money

i know PA’s make a ton, and can make much more! My whole point was really the stress of a PA’s day... think about it, we literally do everything a doc just about does correct? Always on our feet, greeting patients, after our normal shift that is enough to drain anyone. However, PTs have like a super laid back environment... like waaay more than a PA, so in this instance they can go pick up more shifts without an intense level of burn out. I know surgical PA’s make generous amounts compared to PC PA’s I was just thinking of the burn out aspect. 

Conclusion

I'm not going to fight about it.. I thought this was a forum of honest opinions to help the next ones of the future. I have been a PA for over 30 years so I can assure you I’m not bashing my own occupation! I loved being a PA, it gave me time with my family, good money, and I helped in people’s lives. I just think this is very disrespectful to PT’s I worked with many over the course of my time, they are very knowledgeable and you never hear of them having these forums. They know their place, they don’t feel the need to prove their profession. And we should need to prove our profession stacked up to a PT. Be happy with your choice, let’s not be petty about it. Give credit where credit is due! 

I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone on this forum it was not my intention! My account was blocked which I can’t believe! You guys don’t want to hear the facts! Maybe because of my opinion I guess, so I will not comment further this post— I just wanted to clear that up.... I really do love PA I just think we should try and be kind to our other professions, because honestly it’s embarrassing... 

- Jennifer 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Jennifer1234567

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

18 hours ago, Jennifer12 said:

(I know there are PA’s who Doc’s trust to work independently, but you are still an assistant after all.)
 

...

My account was blocked which I can’t believe! You guys don’t want to hear the facts! Maybe because of my opinion I guess

5 hours ago, Jennifer1234567 said:

- Jennifer 

Account was suspended from access to the site, as the poster was instructed, because A) it was their first and only post B)inflammatory calling us “assistants after all”. C) the phrasing of which and the gross lack of knowledge of both professions seemed to indicate they were neither a PA or a PT. This combined led to an assumption of trolling. 
 

postings, unless spam, are never deleted by me. However. don’t smack down the profession on your first post and expect to stay long.

[True Anomaly]

Closing necro thread