Inaugural PA Online Class - YALE

[camoman1234]

@Gordon, PA-C your statement: There's simply no way Yale (or any other program) can have the same oversight over a clinic site 2000 miles away compared to a clinical site in their own hospital or clinic in New Haven.  They can talk a lot of BS about their "quality controls" but that's simply BS.

How do you think all the other PA and medical schools do this with their away rotations? What is your magical mileage number to say it is "ok" to do clinicals within that radius? I did several away rotations ~1,000 miles away as well did my 4 buddies that are all now in residency (MD and DO). They all did away rotations as their area was saturated. 

[Boatswain2PA]

38 minutes ago, camoman1234 said:

What is your magical mileage number to say it is "ok" to do clinicals within that radius?

I thought there was a requirement for someone from the PA program to personally visit the rotation site at least once a year...maybe I'm wrong.

[sas5814]

15 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I thought there was a requirement for someone from the PA program to personally visit the rotation site at least once a year...maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not sure if it is a requirement or not. My FP clinic had students for years and never had a site visit.

[camoman1234]

19 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I thought there was a requirement for someone from the PA program to personally visit the rotation site at least once a year...maybe I'm wrong.

@Boatswain2PAThere is. My program and my friends medical schools all visited the sites once per year. The clinical coordinator flew out and visited several sites while she was down and went to several different states as well. All that money is in the tuition fees so there is no money out of the universities pocket. 

[EMEDPA]

On 4/10/2018 at 3:52 PM, eliam22 said:

We spend 3 weeks on the Yale campus learning physical exam and patient assessment skills, just as any other PA program does, only condensed. We also complete full body dissections. 

we spent an entire 2 terms on A+P dissections and an entire semester on the PE course. we spent a week just on the neuro exam. 

The history course was also an entire semester of taking histories from real patients in the affiliated hospital and doing huge write ups. 

sorry, this sounds like an NP program. 

[kargiver]

24 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

we spent an entire 2 terms on A+P dissections and an entire semester on the PE course. we spent a week just on the neuro exam. 

The history course was also an entire semester of taking histories from real patients in the affiliated hospital and doing huge write ups. 

sorry, this sounds like an NP program. 

Sorry Eric - I have to disagree here.  the PA program on campus has a full dissection that is roughly a 1/3 the time of the medical students while covering the same material.  The fact that they are even bringing them to campus to do a dissection in the first place is far better than what most programs are doing for those students at traditionally based schools.  This dissection sounds similar to what the on-campus students do.  And we both know there are no issues with the in-class curriculum...

Additionally, the H+P class is 10 classes total for the on-campus class then write-up after write-up after write-up.  Mine varied from clinics to the ortho floors at the VA (those were interesting) to standard IM write-ups.  No reason this cannot be done elsewhere.

All I am seeing on this thread is people complaining about how this will drag down the profession.  What will actually drag down the profession is the continued proliferation of crap schools that cannot find clinical sites, force students to do all the legwork, cannot maintain accreditation on a consistent basis, and while going through their initial probationary period for provisional accreditation, fleecing students for as much as they can.  This is not the case with this online program.  As I stated earlier, I do not support it for political reasons - but as far as content and connections for students: it is well covered.

G

 

 

[Reality Check 2]

My thoughts have been clearly made on online.

To add to that - we simply have TOO MANY PA programs and are flooding the market and along the line - the control, the quality, the oversight and the product will suffer. 

Online will speed that up. 

We already have a problem getting teaching sites for programs that have been around a long long time. Corporate medicine is blocking shadowing, filtering students despite their "mission statements" and folks are just too busy,  too production conscious and too litigation weary to handle students. 

We have MD students, DO students, residents of all flavors, PA students, NP,  PharmD and everyone else looking for sites and fewer and fewer proctors by choice or by policy.

I think online should not be done and the programs we have need a good thorough evaluation as to their ability to provide the education as it was designed and make that work before adding any more bells and whistles.

Again, my old 2 cents.

[MidwesternTexan]

PA Programs are flooding the market?  What about the zillion NP programs?  No?

[kargiver]

7 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I thought there was a requirement for someone from the PA program to personally visit the rotation site at least once a year...maybe I'm wrong.

This is correct - when I was clinical education coordinator for one of the Boston programs this was part of my job and part of the ARC-PA standards we had to meet to maintain accreditation.

[thinkertdm]

I think as long as the students in an online program have at least a hundred hours of shadowing with a healthy dose of volunteering prior to acceptance, they should do fine. 

I understand times change, teaching methods change, but what is being taught- the art of medicine- doesn't.  You can literally train a monkey to click meaningful use or template items or prefilled notes...but to learn the art, you need to do it, constantly, every day, like any art.  To do this, you need to be in the culture of it.  You can't visit Paris once a month, speak a few words of French- even be able to converse- and call yourself French.  

To do this for medicine makes you a dilettante, and I can understand why anyone, especially licensing boards, are leery of someone who learned their art "online".

[Boatswain2PA]

37 minutes ago, kargiver said:

This is correct - when I was clinical education coordinator for one of the Boston programs this was part of my job and part of the ARC-PA standards we had to meet to maintain accreditation.

Is Yale on-line going to do this as well?  50 (??) students a year spread around the country, each with their own 6-10 rotation sites?  That's 300-500 rotation sites the first year, with 600-1000 rotation sites that would have to be visited each year after that.

[turtlesrule]

I believe they have a 3rd party company has guaranteed all of the schools clinical rotation sites. To the extent they will cannibalize sites from other schools and do monitoring I can't say but gotta think they are paying for these sites and that cost will be passed on to the students. That probably happens now but without an underlying for-profit model.

[Reality Check 2]

Third party companies monitoring preceptor sites...... ummmm, NO.

[TrekkieByDay]

On 4/23/2018 at 7:48 PM, Acebecker said:

People have all kinds of reasons for not doing things.  Reasons for not doing things are also known as excuses.  Look at the portion of your reply that you underlined.  The definition of "willing" is very closely tied to the definition of "committed."  Thus it makes a ton of logical sense.  Being willing to move is demonstrative of commitment, and those are the people we are looking for.

We are *not* looking for people who want to take the easiest route through PA school that they can find.

I understand that there are barriers to PA education and I'm telling you that I want people taking care of my family who fought tooth and nail to break those barriers down and who made a sacrifice to be privileged to practice medicine.  I do not want someone taking care of my kids who picked the PA route because it's lucrative and because he had easy access to the program.  I don't want the PA who sailed her way through rotations primarily shadowing and just getting passing grades.  Do you?

And absolutely moving = skin in the game.  How could it not be the equivalent?  You'll note that I did not say that "not moving = no skin in the game."  Not having to move and uproot your life and define yourself by the curriculum you want to take means you have less skin in the game.  Less skin in the game means less value and less willingness to sacrifice to get the job done.

Andrew

 

Well, I'm going to apply, because basically none of what you said is true all of the time. Some incredibly high-performing medical students make crappy doctors. Some barriers keep gifted providers out of medical school. 

And if you haven't had to balance your own scholastic needs with the needs of a child who's *finally* getting good medical care after 12 years of misdiagnoses, then you can't accurately say who does or who doesn't have skin in the game. 

You sound either incredibly young or incredibly lucky. I'm happy for you either way. 

[EMEDPA]

I know Dr Sadler fairly well(the founder of the program at Yale). We worked together for many years when I was an ER tech and he wrote one of my LORs for PA school. We used to go bowling together, etc when he was medical director of my dept.  I wonder what his feelings are regarding online PA programs. Will try to find out.

[Acebecker]

That's fine.  I hope you do well.  I also hope that you develop a more solid understanding of the history of the PA profession and the challenges we have faced along the way and what we face going forward.  You have no framework of reference here - you are a pre-PA student.  

And here is my word of advice for you as you embark on your endeavor:  Your final comment is dismissive of me because you perceive me as young (I'm not) or lucky (I'm not).  If you are that dismissive and disrespectful of people you disagree with because of your perceptions, you are going to face immense challenges in the future both with actually learning anything and with practicing medicine in a compassionate and effective manner.  

I want to restate the opening to this post: I hope you do well.  Don't read everything else and forget that.  

[Kilian12]

On 4/26/2018 at 4:16 PM, EMEDPA said:

I know Dr Sadler fairly well(the founder of the program at Yale). We worked together for many years when I was an ER tech and he wrote one of my LORs for PA school. We used to go bowling together, etc when he was medical director of my dept.  I wonder what his feelings are regarding online PA programs. Will try to find out.

Dr. Sadler was a part of our Preparing Future PAs course and gave us a lot of PA history as well as the history of founding Yale.

[Kilian12]

On 4/24/2018 at 6:45 PM, turtlesrule said:

I believe they have a 3rd party company has guaranteed all of the schools clinical rotation sites. To the extent they will cannibalize sites from other schools and do monitoring I can't say but gotta think they are paying for these sites and that cost will be passed on to the students. That probably happens now but without an underlying for-profit model.

Yale (including this program) never pays clinical sites.

[MedStudent898989]

You can beat that computer program by taping notes to your computer screen.

[Kaepora]

7 hours ago, MedStudent898989 said:

You can beat that computer program by taping notes to your computer screen.

No, you can't.  You log in and are met by a proctor.  They take a picture of you, a picture of your government issued ID, and then you answer identification questions about yourself.  They then "secure the room".  They ask to see the front and back of your hands.  You must have a mirror behind you so they can see the computer screen and in front of you and they ask for you to specifically show them your screen and keyboard.  You are required to show all four walls of the room above and below your desk surface.  Then they as you to show them your phone and set it aside out of your reach and you have to show them where you set it.  You also must be in a room, alone.  No one is allowed in or out during the exam or they immediately end the exam and you fail.  Then they lock your computer screen and disable your ability to access other apps, and also disable your ability to take screen shots.  You are being watched and recorded the entire time.  When you finish you alert the proctor and they will end your exam, give you control of the computer and normal functionality and you can log off.

Honestly, it's a lot less of a hassle to take an exam in a classroom.  And, IMO, easier to cheat.

[Reality Check 2]

^^THAT is a complete hassle and I couldn’t achieve those requirements in my home. It does sound easier to just go to school and take a test. Cripe, what a mess.

[camoman1234]

59 minutes ago, Reality Check 2 said:

^^THAT is a complete hassle and I couldn’t achieve those requirements in my home. It does sound easier to just go to school and take a test. Cripe, what a mess.

That's why you go to a library or college to take them test. All the universities and community colleges I have been in have "testing" or "proctoring" centers in them for this reason. People need to get with the times. Just cause it was done one way 30+ years ago does not mean things cannot change for the better.  

[Reality Check 2]

It has nothing to do with getting with the times for me. That type of test set up wouldn't suit my style - ever - now or years ago.

I would not function well in that setting mentally. It is hard enough to go to Pearson Testing every 6 years (now every 10 for  me) and be frisked and placed on camera to take a test. 

Sitting in a classroom or auditorium suits my style better. Everyone has their own testing thing.

So, not always an age issue - folks actually have a learning style and thrive in certain environments and struggle in others. Not one size fits all by any means.

[MedStudent898989]

16 hours ago, ACNPstudent said:

No, you can't.  You log in and are met by a proctor.  They take a picture of you, a picture of your government issued ID, and then you answer identification questions about yourself.  They then "secure the room".  They ask to see the front and back of your hands.  You must have a mirror behind you so they can see the computer screen and in front of you and they ask for you to specifically show them your screen and keyboard.  You are required to show all four walls of the room above and below your desk surface.  Then they as you to show them your phone and set it aside out of your reach and you have to show them where you set it.  You also must be in a room, alone.  No one is allowed in or out during the exam or they immediately end the exam and you fail.  Then they lock your computer screen and disable your ability to access other apps, and also disable your ability to take screen shots.  You are being watched and recorded the entire time.  When you finish you alert the proctor and they will end your exam, give you control of the computer and normal functionality and you can log off.

Honestly, it's a lot less of a hassle to take an exam in a classroom.  And, IMO, easier to cheat.

Here's a website devoted to how you can beat ProctorTrack, the program Yale is using: https://jakebinstein.com/blog/on-knuckle-scanners-and-cheating-how-to-bypass-proctortrack/ . There's a picture on there of what I'm talking about, you basically prop your notes against the computer screen and manipulate your webcam so the program can't detect it. I've never used the program myself, I was a bio TA the semester our college tried it out. Record high midterm scores (using ProctorTrack), followed by record low final scores (not using ProtorTrack). N=1 , but in my experience, it is not a great way to administer tests.

Also, that testing experience sounds awful. Sorry you had to go through it. Take care

[camoman1234]

14 hours ago, Reality Check 2 said:

It has nothing to do with getting with the times for me. That type of test set up wouldn't suit my style - ever - now or years ago.

I would not function well in that setting mentally. It is hard enough to go to Pearson Testing every 6 years (now every 10 for  me) and be frisked and placed on camera to take a test. 

Sitting in a classroom or auditorium suits my style better. Everyone has their own testing thing.

So, not always an age issue - folks actually have a learning style and thrive in certain environments and struggle in others. Not one size fits all by any means.

But it has to do with the "times" as this is how test are being taken. Less and less classroom time. Sorry to hear about the Pearson PANRE, but that is how things are going to be from here on out. I agree everyone has their own testing thing, but doesn't change the fact that Universities are moving toward this hybrid classroom style.