Inaugural PA Online Class - YALE

[sas5814]

16 minutes ago, TrekkieByDay said:

Killian, how many clinical hours of training do you think you acquired, total? 
A NP gets between 500-1500. 

A PA typically gets just over 2000. 

It seemed, when I looked into this program, that Yale Online PAs would get MUCH fewer hours, and I didn't want that--so how many did you accrue? 

Thanks! 

 

Thank you for admitting that you didn't know about how they fixed one of the common objections to this program. THAT is a huge step forward for me--knowing they take academic integrity seriously. 

If you want me to admit everything I don't know you are going to need to get some food and drink...we're gonna be here a while.

 

[corpsman89]

52 minutes ago, TrekkieByDay said:

I haven't seen any evidence that said "No PCE" was acceptable for admissions....anywhere. Where are these hidden gems? 

 

https://www.thepalife.com/no-experience-required-84-pa-schools-that-dont-require-healthcare-experience/

And they're no hidden gems. They're hidden arguments that NPs/MDs/DOs/legislatures can use against us as we push for OTP. I actually didnt realize the number of schools was so high. 

 

[TrekkieByDay]

6 minutes ago, corpsman89 said:

https://www.thepalife.com/no-experience-required-84-pa-schools-that-dont-require-healthcare-experience/

And they're no hidden gems. They're hidden arguments that NPs/MDs/DOs/legislatures can use against us as we push for OTP. I actually didnt realize the number of schools was so high. 

 

The second one on this list is my local school, the one I'll be applying to. It "recommends" at least 1400 hours, and the average # of hours that accepted students have is 2500-3000, over the last 5 years. 

Yeah, I'm not buying that ppl can actually get into PA schools w/ no PCE's--at least not buying it yet.

If someone *did*, it would be an exceptional case, w/ a well-considered reason. (For example, I've spent 13 years caring for a daughter w/ exceptionally difficult medical needs, but that doesn't count as PCE's--even though I've had to educate actual doctors who weren't up to date w/ research on her conditions, & won a healthcare-writing award for a blog series on it. THAT still doesn't give me any reason to skip PCEs, so I can't imagine any accredited school accepting candidates willy-nilly.) 

[corpsman89]

30 minutes ago, TrekkieByDay said:

The second one on this list is my local school, the one I'll be applying to. It "recommends" at least 1400 hours, and the average # of hours that accepted students have is 2500-3000, over the last 5 years. 

Yeah, I'm not buying that ppl can actually get into PA schools w/ no PCE's--at least not buying it yet.

If someone *did*, it would be an exceptional case, w/ a well-considered reason. (For example, I've spent 13 years caring for a daughter w/ exceptionally difficult medical needs, but that doesn't count as PCE's--even though I've had to educate actual doctors who weren't up to date w/ research on her conditions, & won a healthcare-writing award for a blog series on it. THAT still doesn't give me any reason to skip PCEs, so I can't imagine any accredited school accepting candidates willy-nilly.) 

Listen. 

You, and others need to understand something that I am trying to get across. 

Its all about PERCEPTION

It DOES NOT matter if a no-PCE-PA school on average accepts students with 2500-3000 hours of experience.

It DOES NOT matter if a Online PA school has excellent standards and accepts students with a proven track record, excellent grades, and a ton of experience. 

What DOES MATTER is that there are PA schools that DO NOT require PCE. 

What DOES MATTER is that there are indeed schools where you can learn to practice medicine ONLINE. 

 

We have to think of the common denominator here. Basically if you combine these two facts, any NP/MD/DO/Legislature can make the argument (although disingenuous) that PAs can basically graduate with an art degree, have zero health care experience and gain their education online--to treat patients. That's not necessarily untrue, and while it is a bend of the truth you can't just say it's completely false.  

[cvilleUVA]

Lots of slippery slope arguments being made here...

[jeepgirl]

3 hours ago, TrekkieByDay said:

I haven't seen any evidence that said "No PCE" was acceptable for admissions....anywhere. Where are these hidden gems? 

 

The 3 + 2 direct entry/dual degree programs aimed at high school seniors. Students start as undergrad freshmen ... graduate 5-6 yrs later with both a BS and MS in hand. 

[Kilian12]

9 hours ago, TrekkieByDay said:

Killian, how many clinical hours of training do you think you acquired, total? 
A NP gets between 500-1500. 

A PA typically gets just over 2000. 

It seemed, when I looked into this program, that Yale Online PAs would get MUCH fewer hours, and I didn't want that--so how many did you accrue? 

Thanks! 

Trekkie, if by clinical hours of training you mean during the course of the program, then no one has completed those yet as we're just 4 months into didactic year and no one has graduated yet. But we have 15 months of clinical rotations and we go to clinic half a day each week for the latter 10 months of didactic year.

15 months x 160 hours/month = 2400hrs
10 months x 16 hours/month = 160hrs
Together is 2560 hours of clinical training.

[Kilian12]

On 4/17/2018 at 6:51 AM, cinntsp said:

Heaven help us if these programs do clinical rotations the same way NP programs do where the student goes for a few hours a couple times per week.

The ARC-PA has mandatory standards for clinical rotations. I don't think they would accredit a system like that.

[TrekkieByDay]

On 4/9/2018 at 4:16 PM, Acebecker said:

George,

Unfortunately, I don't agree.  I don't think that online learning is the path to excellence for the PA profession.  Yes, it will put marginal programs on notice.  Great that they will change their ways.  But online programs make us look like buffoons.  It's a lowest common denominator thing.  We will receive the reputation of the lowest 1/2 of the Yale class, not the best of them.  And Yale just removed barriers that kept unmotivated people out of PA school.  Instead of requiring extreme commitment and making that a visible thing by requiring people to move to a new state and learn a new system, now people are able to become PAs with minimal time invested - whatever they feel they can get by with.  They have less skin in the game and when you have little or no skin in the game, the value of the commodity declines.

 

Andrew

This idea of "moving=skin in the game" doesn't make sense to me. I can think of several scenarios, without even trying too hard, where moving would be a serious hindrance for talented people: 

-What about the dad who has to stay in-state due to a partial custody agreement? 
-What about the couple where one half has a rare tenure-track academic job? 
-What about military spouses? They already have a ridiculously difficult time maintaining healthcare jobs due to differences among state licensing requirements. 
-What about disabled people who've already invested a ridiculous amount of money into accomodations for their house? They can spend extra money to build new accomodations for their *practice*, but don't have the money right now. And selling a house w/ disability accommodations isn't easy. :( 

This type of program is allowing all of these people who literally have no options for career advancement to have some options. I'm not saying "This program is awesome," because I don't know this program. However, the idea that being willing and able to move should somehow denote commitment, motivation, and dedication just doesn't make logical sense. 

My guess is that  these students will be ridiculously *more* dedicated than the average student, because an opportunity was made available to them that wasn't available previously. :D 

[TrekkieByDay]

15 hours ago, corpsman89 said:

Listen. 

You, and others need to understand something that I am trying to get across. 

Its all about PERCEPTION

It DOES NOT matter if a no-PCE-PA school on average accepts students with 2500-3000 hours of experience.

It DOES NOT matter if a Online PA school has excellent standards and accepts students with a proven track record, excellent grades, and a ton of experience. 

What DOES MATTER is that there are PA schools that DO NOT require PCE. 

What DOES MATTER is that there are indeed schools where you can learn to practice medicine ONLINE. 

 

We have to think of the common denominator here. Basically if you combine these two facts, any NP/MD/DO/Legislature can make the argument (although disingenuous) that PAs can basically graduate with an art degree, have zero health care experience and gain their education online--to treat patients. That's not necessarily untrue, and while it is a bend of the truth you can't just say it's completely false.  

Ok....then just for the sake of understanding, why not invest in educating the legislators and the public, instead of literally adapting our practices to other, less-educated people's perception? 

People *think* antibiotics will make them feel better when they're sick. They won't, if they have a virus. Our job is to educate them about that, and not just give them what they want, because that's their perception. 

[corpsman89]

1 hour ago, TrekkieByDay said:

Ok....then just for the sake of understanding, why not invest in educating the legislators and the public, instead of literally adapting our practices to other, less-educated people's perception? 

People *think* antibiotics will make them feel better when they're sick. They won't, if they have a virus. Our job is to educate them about that, and not just give them what they want, because that's their perception. 

Well we can no longer educate them that PAs are required to attend in-class training. 

We also can no longer educate them that PAs are required to have a certain amount of experience before entering the profession. 

But yes, I agree, we do need to educate them about how we have much higher standards than NP education, and we have far more training hours than NPs, but with <3% of PAs voting in their own election, and hardly any PAs contributing money to their own PAC I don't see any legitimate education going on in the near future. Unlike our NP counterparts who are spending tons of $$$ to support their own profession, and to suppress the fact of their much lower standards in education. 

My main point is that PAs can't afford what NPs can afford as far as lower perceived standards in education. 

[Boatswain2PA]

16 hours ago, cvilleUVA said:

Lots of slippery slope arguments being made here...

History shows that most slopes are, indeed, slippery.

 

[lemurcatta]

I applied to this program, and then withdrew after I discovered that it is Yale partially in name only. Yale outsources a lot of the administration and management to a FOR PROFIT company called 2U. This is a company is leading the charge in creating online programs at every school imaginable. They are powering the 21 month FNP program at USC as well. Philosophically, I am opposed to expanding class sizes through online and distance options in apparent effort to increase the amount of people paying tuition. 

How is it that other PA programs require you to be in physically present in anatomy lab, physical exam skills, procedure skills, in classroom for lecture and tests, nearly every weekday, but at Yale you can get away with flying to campus for a couple of weeks in the didactic year for "on campus immersions" and get the *same* education? 

[jeepgirl]

4 hours ago, TrekkieByDay said:

This idea of "moving=skin in the game" doesn't make sense to me. I can think of several scenarios, without even trying too hard, where moving would be a serious hindrance for talented people ...

-What about the dad who has to stay in-state due to a partial custody agreement? 
-What about the couple where one half has a rare tenure-track academic job? 
-What about military spouses? They already have a ridiculously difficult time maintaining healthcare jobs due to differences among state licensing requirements. 
-What about disabled people who've already invested a ridiculous amount of money into accomodations for their house? They can spend extra money to build new accomodations for their *practice*, but don't have the money right now. And selling a house w/ disability accommodations isn't easy. :( 

This type of program is allowing all of these people who literally have no options for career advancement to have some options. 

Well, I think saying that these folks "literally have no options for career advancement" is a little overdramatic ... because these folks do have options. My class is full of people who have similar hardships. Life put an obstacle in front of them, and they figured out a way to tackle it. Frequently, it has involved sacrifices... selling of houses, being geographic bachelors, applying multiple times to the same school, etc. 

[TrekkieByDay]

3 hours ago, jeepgirl said:

Well, I think saying that these folks "literally have no options for career advancement" is a little overdramatic ... because these folks do have options. My class is full of people who have similar hardships. Life put an obstacle in front of them, and they figured out a way to tackle it. Frequently, it has involved sacrifices... selling of houses, being geographic bachelors, applying multiple times to the same school, etc. 

Well, good for them. 
It doesn't work that way for everyone. 
We have a huge shortage of primary care providers, and *IF* the clinical training turns out to be *AS* effective, then I'm glad that the door opened for ppl who didn't have the same options. (Again, please don't read this as an endorsement of the program.) Accessibility *itself* is a good thing. 

 

[lkth487]

The point is, and you can correct me if I am mistaken, that I don't think the LCME would accredit an online program.  These schools that are attached to medical schools - are the medical schools moving to online curriculum?  If not, why not?

I don't think the PA education system necessarily needs to be wedded to the medical school education system, but you KNOW it's going to be used against PAs when it comes time for OTP or something like that.  'Oh yea, they can get their degrees online.'   Even on this very forum, I see, quite often, people talking about NP education and how its inferior [partly] because the glut of schools that offer online only or primarily online courses.  Is that right?  Probably not.  But perception matters in medicine, whether fair or not.  

[corpsman89]

36 minutes ago, lkth487 said:

The point is, and you can correct me if I am mistaken, that I don't think the LCME would accredit an online program.  These schools that are attached to medical schools - are the medical schools moving to online curriculum?  If not, why not?

I don't think the PA education system necessarily needs to be wedded to the medical school education system, but you KNOW it's going to be used against PAs when it comes time for OTP or something like that.  'Oh yea, they can get their degrees online.'   Even on this very forum, I see, quite often, people talking about NP education and how its inferior [partly] because the glut of schools that offer online only or primarily online courses.  Is that right?  Probably not.  But perception matters in medicine, whether fair or not.  

Thank you! Someone gets it. 

[Acebecker]

8 hours ago, TrekkieByDay said:

This idea of "moving=skin in the game" doesn't make sense to me. I can think of several scenarios, without even trying too hard, where moving would be a serious hindrance for talented people: 

-What about the dad who has to stay in-state due to a partial custody agreement? 
-What about the couple where one half has a rare tenure-track academic job? 
-What about military spouses? They already have a ridiculously difficult time maintaining healthcare jobs due to differences among state licensing requirements. 
-What about disabled people who've already invested a ridiculous amount of money into accomodations for their house? They can spend extra money to build new accomodations for their *practice*, but don't have the money right now. And selling a house w/ disability accommodations isn't easy. :( 

This type of program is allowing all of these people who literally have no options for career advancement to have some options. I'm not saying "This program is awesome," because I don't know this program. However, the idea that being willing and able to move should somehow denote commitment, motivation, and dedication just doesn't make logical sense. 

My guess is that  these students will be ridiculously *more* dedicated than the average student, because an opportunity was made available to them that wasn't available previously. :D

People have all kinds of reasons for not doing things.  Reasons for not doing things are also known as excuses.  Look at the portion of your reply that you underlined.  The definition of "willing" is very closely tied to the definition of "committed."  Thus it makes a ton of logical sense.  Being willing to move is demonstrative of commitment, and those are the people we are looking for.

We are *not* looking for people who want to take the easiest route through PA school that they can find.

I understand that there are barriers to PA education and I'm telling you that I want people taking care of my family who fought tooth and nail to break those barriers down and who made a sacrifice to be privileged to practice medicine.  I do not want someone taking care of my kids who picked the PA route because it's lucrative and because he had easy access to the program.  I don't want the PA who sailed her way through rotations primarily shadowing and just getting passing grades.  Do you?

And absolutely moving = skin in the game.  How could it not be the equivalent?  You'll note that I did not say that "not moving = no skin in the game."  Not having to move and uproot your life and define yourself by the curriculum you want to take means you have less skin in the game.  Less skin in the game means less value and less willingness to sacrifice to get the job done.

Andrew

 

[Joelseff]

I applied to this program, and then withdrew after I discovered that it is Yale partially in name only. Yale outsources a lot of the administration and management to a FOR PROFIT company called 2U. This is a company is leading the charge in creating online programs at every school imaginable. They are powering the 21 month FNP program at USC as well. Philosophically, I am opposed to expanding class sizes through online and distance options in apparent effort to increase the amount of people paying tuition. 

How is it that other PA programs require you to be in physically present in anatomy lab, physical exam skills, procedure skills, in classroom for lecture and tests, nearly every weekday, but at Yale you can get away with flying to campus for a couple of weeks in the didactic year for "on campus immersions" and get the *same* education? 

Wow. That makes sense... Is that posted on their site (about 2U)?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[kargiver]

Full Disclosure: I am a Yale graduate and have opposed the implementation of this program from the beginning.  This is primarily for political reasons. That being said...

When I was in Hope 203, all I did, for 4 out of 5 days a week, was day trade.  I paid attention occasionally to learn what I thought was important but otherwise, I was more concerned about stock market analysis, getting in on morning trades, getting home in time for late day trades, studying occasionally before the weekly Thursday test, and managing to work 24-40 hours a week on a busy ALS rig either in CT or back in Massachusetts.  Yet somehow, I still managed to get the "Yale" experience necessary to kick the crap out of my rotations, smoke many a medical school student, and work in what is perhaps one of the best EM environments in the country.  Since leaving Yale, I have sat on their admissions board, know how they select candidates, understand the ethos that is Yale, and know what they look for in students.  I've also been president of my national organization, have taught at several other schools, have served as core faculty in another program in Boston, and still lecture occasionally when I feel like it.

If anyone really thinks this is lowering standards, you are not likely familiar with the student base that Yale pursues.  When this cadre of graduates, their diplomas are not going to say "Yale Online School of Medicine, Physician Associate Program."  And no one on the other side of the hiring table is really going to care if they took their didactic component partially online in rural Colorado or New Haven, CT.  The School of Medicine at Yale treats the PA program and the Medical program quite differently; medical students are not graded, attendance has never been mandatory for any class, etc.  It is the opposite for PAs as ALL administrators and faculty are familiar with the condensed nature of the material that the PAs are learning compared to the medical student colleagues.  I'd argue this is not lost on the logistical implementation of the didactic component at Yale.

By its very nature, PAs were, and continue to be, born out the necessity of disruptive innovation, and this is the next logical step.  The type of student Yale is looking for is not going to change, sans their ability to be even more flexible than what they require of an "on-campus" student, while working out the logistical kinks that are bound to occur.  But 5 years from now, when this group is into their 2nd jobs, no one is going to care that they learned the various subtypes of AML by hearing it or reading about it on a computer screen from their desk at home rather than watching one of the oncologists walk over from 300 Cedar Street.  Because it doesn't matter.  The fire hydrant is the fire hydrant.  It only matters how you choose to drink water from it.  Not where you are sitting when you decide to stick your face in the stream.

G

[Boatswain2PA]

I'm sure Yale (or that school that starts with an H) can make this work.

And the next few online programs will likely make it work as well. 

But then the quality will begin to suffer as 3rd rate universities see this as yet another cash cow.

[ProSpectre]

2 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I'm sure Yale (or that school that starts with an H) can make this work.

And the next few online programs will likely make it work as well. 

But then the quality will begin to suffer as 3rd rate universities see this as yet another cash cow.

This is precisely my fear with online PA education. I have no doubts Yale will dump the resources into this program to do it right, and that they will attract high quality students who will succeed and make it work. But if this precedent picks up steam in PA education I fear that other schools won't have the same resources to commit, and will instead see this as a way to generate increased tuition with minimal investment and potentially slipping standards (à la NP education). That, plus the perception of it in the medical community, is why I am against the PA educational model moving online.  

[Gordon, PA-C]

I'm sorry, I still don't buy the distance clinical education component and I sure as hell don't buy the online testing component.

You're telling me the testing software can tell if your eyes are looking away from the screen during the test?  LMAO I would love to do a test drive on this system and count how many ways it can be beaten.  

There's simply no way Yale (or any other program) can have the same oversight over a clinic site 2000 miles away compared to a clinical site in their own hospital or clinic in New Haven.  They can talk a lot of BS about their "quality controls" but that's simply BS.

The real question here is why Yale would do this.  They can spout off on stuff about being an "innovator" but that doesn't make any sense.  In 25 years nobody will look back and say "Yale is an awesome program because they did the first online PA school"

The real reason Yale is doing this is $$$$.  It's the same reason they are building campuses all over the Middle East to get the rich Arab students flush with oil cash.  

Yale sees this as an immensely scalable program.  Hell I have no doubt that hteir long term vision is to take the distance learning concept world wide.  There's MILLIONS of rich foreigners that would gladly pay $200k for their spoiled brat child to get a Yale degree.  

It will start out small, but it won't stay that way.  I'm going to make a prediction -- in 10 years the online Yale PA program will have an enrollment at least 10 times larger than their "brick and mortar" program.  They are going to make a killing too, since they can charge the same amount of money and yet have much lower expenses.

[camoman1234]

1 minute ago, Gordon, PA-C said:

I'm sorry, I still don't buy the distance clinical education component and I sure as hell don't buy the online testing component.

You're telling me the testing software can tell if your eyes are looking away from the screen during the test?  LMAO I would love to do a test drive on this system and count how many ways it can be beaten.  

There's simply no way Yale (or any other program) can have the same oversight over a clinic site 2000 miles away compared to a clinical site in their own hospital or clinic in New Haven.  They can talk a lot of BS about their "quality controls" but that's simply BS.

The real question here is why Yale would do this.  They can spout off on stuff about being an "innovator" but that doesn't make any sense.  In 25 years nobody will look back and say "Yale is an awesome program because they did the first online PA school"

The real reason Yale is doing this is $$$$.  It's the same reason they are building campuses all over the Middle East to get the rich Arab students flush with oil cash.  

Yale sees this as an immensely scalable program.  Hell I have no doubt that hteir long term vision is to take the distance learning concept world wide.  There's MILLIONS of rich foreigners that would gladly pay $200k for their spoiled brat child to get a Yale degree.  

It will start out small, but it won't stay that way.  I'm going to make a prediction -- in 10 years the online Yale PA program will have an enrollment at least 10 times larger than their "brick and mortar" program.  They are going to make a killing too, since they can charge the same amount of money and yet have much lower expenses.

Wow! You must not know much about computers or smart phones. Most newer smart phones have technology that you have scroll the screen with your eyes. There is probably a lot of technology you are not even aware of that people use on a daily basis. How could they ever have internet on a pair of glasses? Well they do...How does your car (newer cars) have all fancy collision-avoidance systems or even the simple TBM systems. I mean it is 2018 and you must come up to speed on the digital age before you can bash it. BTW Yale is NOT the first "online/hybrid" PA school out there. It is the 3rd of its kind. 

[BearDown]

27 minutes ago, Gordon, PA-C said:

I'm sorry, I still don't buy the distance clinical education component and I sure as hell don't buy the online testing component.

You're telling me the testing software can tell if your eyes are looking away from the screen during the test?  LMAO I would love to do a test drive on this system and count how many ways it can be beaten.  

There's simply no way Yale (or any other program) can have the same oversight over a clinic site 2000 miles away compared to a clinical site in their own hospital or clinic in New Haven.  They can talk a lot of BS about their "quality controls" but that's simply BS.

The real question here is why Yale would do this.  They can spout off on stuff about being an "innovator" but that doesn't make any sense.  In 25 years nobody will look back and say "Yale is an awesome program because they did the first online PA school"

The real reason Yale is doing this is $$$$.  It's the same reason they are building campuses all over the Middle East to get the rich Arab students flush with oil cash.  

Yale sees this as an immensely scalable program.  Hell I have no doubt that hteir long term vision is to take the distance learning concept world wide.  There's MILLIONS of rich foreigners that would gladly pay $200k for their spoiled brat child to get a Yale degree.  

It will start out small, but it won't stay that way.  I'm going to make a prediction -- in 10 years the online Yale PA program will have an enrollment at least 10 times larger than their "brick and mortar" program.  They are going to make a killing too, since they can charge the same amount of money and yet have much lower expenses.

yeah I would agree. Using their name to market the cash cow.

Graduates still get to say "I graduated from Yale."