Jump to content

Physician Assisted Suicide


Recommended Posts

23 hours ago, rev ronin said:

So the treatment of Alan Turing was OK? Tuskegee syphilis experiment, just fine? Nazi experimentation on human subjects?

No, but on the subject of logical fallacies, have you looked up strawman recently?

 

The definition of murder is the unlawful killing of another person. So, if the law says that it isn't illegal then it isn't murder, by definition. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I apologize if this is a repeat suggestion, but I highly recommend the book "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande on this topic. Put a lot of things about the aging process and how we treat our loved ones (as well as patients) at the end in perspective.

If you don't want to read the whole book, Atul (a practicing surgeon) is against physician assisted suicide for many reasons but chiefly because it creates a culture where dying becomes more important than helping those with a terminal diagnosis live the rest of their life on their terms. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
3 hours ago, anewconvert said:

No, but on the subject of logical fallacies, have you looked up strawman recently?

The definition of murder is the unlawful killing of another person. So, if the law says that it isn't illegal then it isn't murder, by definition. 

I just gave three concrete descriptions of then-legal, morally reprehensible actions committed *by* *physicians*, and you think I'm presenting a strawman?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, anewconvert said:

The definition of murder is the unlawful killing of another person. So, if the law says that it isn't illegal then it isn't murder, by definition. 

The implication of this is that you must not consider the Holocaust murder because the killings were authorized by the German government and were thus "legal."

You might wish to reconsider.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be able to have a debate that potentially will change people's minds/opinion you have to first establish whether there are absolute truths.  Personally, I believe there are absolute truths and one is: the intentional premature ending of human life is wrong with very few exceptions (basically self defense and war).  This includes the taking of someone else's life and/or your own.

The debate regarding this issue is very similar to the debate surrounding abortion.  You have to establish where life begins and where it ends.  In the abortion debate I believe life begins at conception and therefore intentionally ending that human life is wrong.  If you believe that life begins at birth (or some arbitrary point during the pregnancy) then I disagree with you but we can either go our separate ways understanding (and trying to respect) our differences or have a conversation about that specific issue.  To have a debate about the entirety of abortion is too broad and allows for examples to be used that create an emotional response.  You have to remove emotion and stick with the absolute truth - or when questioned consider whether the absolute truth is wrong and critically think about whether your understanding of the truth should be amended.

In regards to physician/provider assisted suicide the question is when life ends.  If it is wrong to prematurely take life, then it does not matter whether it is compassionate or empowers/comforts the patient to provide the option of legal suicide.  If something is wrong, then it is wrong.  You first have to establish these truths to be able to have a worthwhile conversation about a topic of debate.

Personally, I believe the act of intentionally and prematurely ending human life is wrong, therefore I do not support physician/provider assisted suicide or abortion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This conversation is clearly a dead end. Religious beliefs hamper further discussion on it (which is fine, not taking a shot at anyone'e beliefs). Bottom line, if you are not for it still do your do diligence and if a patient asks about it inform them about it or find someone else to talk to. If you are for it make sure it's the right circumstances. No more reasons to belittle anyone on here just because we disagree. Every time some starts a tangent it ends with "Personal beliefs" and that's where is should like. A patients personal beliefs, and that providers personal beliefs and transfer of care if those do no match so that they can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Joelseff said:

Jdabrowski: So would you say that "personal beliefs" that support Physician Assisted Suicide do not "hamper" the debate/discussion?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please see my above post about how no further discussion on this topic will be helpful in any sort of way. I have watched more than my fair share of people die slow agonizing deaths to know there should be options if a patient so chooses. My religious beliefs should not get in the way of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jdabrowski said:

This conversation is clearly a dead end.

You need not participate if you feel that way, but considering the sensitivity of the subject matter people have been respectful. I am very happy to hear what people who disagree with me have to say - you never learn anything by hanging out with people who agree with you all the time. I will confess I have had a lifetime to ponder and develop my beliefs, so the likelihood of changing many of them is fairly minuscule. Anecdotally, I will also confess that I have found people with a "progressive" mindset (which is purportedly the essence of open-mindedness) are usually the first to shut down a discussion they do not agree with. (For reference, see recent events at Stanford and Middlebury).
 

For folks who support legalization of suicide in some form I don't always understand how they apply conditions to establish acceptability and I would like to hear a well-thought out argument. If self-determination is important, what is magical about a terminal illness? Say a person, grown to adulthood with no family responsibilities and no mental illness simply decides life is boring and wants to end it. Why not? Suffering is relative. I've even seen people with 10/10 abdominal pain eating Doritos and Mountain Dew in the ED waiting room.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Jdabrowski said:

Please see my above post about how no further discussion on this topic will be helpful in any sort of way. I have watched more than my fair share of people die slow agonizing deaths to know there should be options if a patient so chooses. My religious beliefs should not get in the way of that.

The question I am left with is who was managing their care, and why were they doing such a poor job? If someone has access to a modern medical facility or hospice care this should essentially never be the case. Maybe we could push hospice more and suicide less? Hospice is all about comfort and dignity which are commonly cited concerns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, CJAdmission said:

The question I am left with is who was managing their care, and why were they doing such a poor job? If someone has access to a modern medical facility or hospice care this should essentially never be the case. Maybe we could push hospice more and suicide less? Hospice is all about comfort and dignity which are commonly cited concerns.

I think you are assuming everyone has care, has adequate care, and hospice can be everywhere all the time and anticipate and prepare for any eventuality. Also there are some things that cannot be ameliorated like the ALS patient who slowly loses all mobility and function until they aspirate their own saliva or can't breathe any more while their mind remains intact. How to relieve their suffering? What pill or potion will make them comfortable? If you give a broadly metastatic cancer patient enough pain meds and anxiety meds to render them unconscious but their respirations remain 40 and their pulse 200 are they still in pain and just unconscious? I don't know. I just know I have seen it and it makes me wonder.

Having done end of life care for years and being married to a hospice nurse of many years I can assure you hospice dose great stuff but it ain't all that. Like it or not it is a business and services get made available or not available based on what insurers will pay for. It is an ugly reality. I could list a bunch of examples but trust me.... it is a business no matter how well meaning the people in the field are.

Now I am not arguing for or against assisted suicide at this point because it is such a charged issue and driven by personal values that the chances of changing anyone's mind is pretty close to zero. I'm just telling you that it is pie in the sky to think the medical system can or will care for all the needs of people in extremis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
3 hours ago, Jdabrowski said:

My religious beliefs should not get in the way of that.

There are very real reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with religion to oppose provider assisted suicide.  That is, one can believe that yes a patient should have that right, but being any part of intentionally ending a patient's life fundamentally compromises the patient-provider relationship, just like having sex with them or disclosing their medical secrets.

Those tenets are all part of an ethics statement by this guy, Hippocrates, and he was religious, but I haven't seen anyone worshiping Apollo, Aesclepius, or any of the other Greek gods recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jdabrowski said:

This conversation is clearly a dead end. Religious beliefs hamper further discussion on it (which is fine, not taking a shot at anyone'e beliefs). Bottom line, if you are not for it still do your do diligence and if a patient asks about it inform them about it or find someone else to talk to. If you are for it make sure it's the right circumstances. No more reasons to belittle anyone on here just because we disagree. Every time some starts a tangent it ends with "Personal beliefs" and that's where is should like. A patients personal beliefs, and that providers personal beliefs and transfer of care if those do no match so that they can.

I disagree.  Just because we don't change each others minds, doesn't mean this isn't a valuable conversation.  We may learn about each others opinions and come to a mutual respect, even if we disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
7 hours ago, CJAdmission said:

While we are at it, what do you guys think of the Charlie Gard case in the UK? The parents want to bring the kid to the US and the govenment is saying they cannot and wants to turn off his life support. Is this the socialized medicine everyone is clamoring to adopt over here?

The fact is, if the rich people--or those who have means--are able to pay for extra care, it undermines the price controls carefully crafted.  "Death Panels" have the same fundamental underlying philosophy as the Obamacare tax on Union "Cadillac" health plans: eliminate the ability for people to get more by paying more. I can understand the philosophy, even if I disagree with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have debated since the start of this thread whether I wanted to share a personal story or not. The conversation has been lively and for the most part respectful but there has been no "budge" on anyone's part including mine. It has been more passionate explanation of why each opinion is correct. I don't take issue with any of it. This isn't a subject that has a measurable quantifiable answer so beliefs and opinions well...that is really all we have. I now share this story not to draw out any sympathy but in the hope that maybe it will give folks some food for thought.

At the age of 36 and after 16 years of marriage my first wife was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. After testing and staging she was determined to have stage III of a rare type that ,almost literally, there was no data on. No known treatments and no vast data base of studies or treatments to use for a reference point. I took her to what I believe was one of the best cancer centers in the country.

Some very smart caring people crafted a treatment plan. Once every 6 weeks she would be admitted for a week for chemotherapy. The week was necessary to manage the symptoms of the treatment. It didn't. She was sick and in pain every minute. Even when sleeping from all the palliative meds she was given she writhed and moaned. After a week I would take her home for 4 to 5 weeks and then return to do it again. 6 treatments total. each successive treatment was just a little worse than the one that preceeded. In the between weeks she was bed bound, sick and in pain, and even with everything bedside nursing and good doctors had to offer was nowhere close to comfortable. I had great insurance. I knew lots of people in the medical field. I had resources few had.

The last day of her last treatment they were transferring her and she fell. The scanned her head because she seemed confused. She had brain metz. I checked her out and took her home. 3 weeks later she died in pain.

 

So a few points....it is far easier to make judgments about palliative care and quality of life if you have always been on the outside looking in. I realize we are objective observers and providers and we are supposed to make our decisions objectively but this isn't a measurable scientific issue. It is opinion based on belief and value judgments and experience. Seeing my wife in that state was horrible. She was in pain every minute of every day from the start of treatment until death. Already thin at the outset she wasted away to nothing because she couldn't tolerate food or drink. No amount of medicine or resources or caring could ameliorate her pain and the side effects of treatment. Please give that some consideration when you ponder if hospice and palliatve care is good enough.

The obvious question many would want to ask but won't out of good manners is would I have permitted her physician assisted death if it were available and if she asked. I don't know. I fear I am too weak and selfish to have said yes. I hope I was loving enough to have said yes.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SAS - thank you for sharing that, and proving your the man I thought you were.

I'm sure you were a tremendous blessing to your wife through all of that, and this experience changed you forever.  

Today you live with those memories, including the memories of your love for one another.

Today you DONT live with any worry, fear, or remorse for helping her take her own life.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Physician Assistant Forum! This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. Learn More